Help with 440 build down under

[TOY440]

Hey guys, writing from Sydney, Australia

I am about to embark on my 440 build. Have had the block cleaned, machined etc etc, it is now 40 thou over. It is going in a car that weighs about 1700kg (3750lbs) give or take. I currently have a 727 and 9inch rear with 3.9's.

I want to run a 10 down the quarter, or as close as I can to a 10.

Before I ask for potential suggestions, there are a few things to keep in mind: firstly: I will be using my factory forged crank to keep costs down (I understand I can stroke it, but the added costs of shipping, converting Aussie $$ to US $$, then paying GST to get the gear in the country, not looking to spend an extra $1 - $2k on top of cost of parts just to get it here, I could use that $3 - $5k+ on the top end, gearbox, custom headers etc), secondly: I also have a 4 inch reverse cowl bonnet, so I can go to a relative decent intake manifold, eg: tunnel ram, which I already have. Thirdly: as most of you on this site are from the US of A, please keep in mind my point about $$ conversion and the added costs I face, so it has to be a reasonably cost effective exercise (if such a thing exists haha), I dont mind buying heads, cam etc from the US, just not $5k+ on a bottom end when I can use my crank with a decent set of rods and pistons.

Might be worth noting that I can use 98 octane or e85 race blend which is 107 octane, all readily available at the pump.

Thanks in advance

[c00nhunterjoe]

If you are using a tunnel ram, i asusme you are prepared for some high rpm fun. Will be a blast. How radical are you going before i make any suggestions?

Edited.

10s in the 1/4 on a legit 440 is not hard to do. If you have 107 available, run a big piston, that will get you 11 or 12:1 on a set of nice max wedge port aluminum heads. Big roller cam to go with your tunnel ram and you will be well into the 10s.

[TOY440]

As radical as I need to. From the research I have done thus far, the calculations say I need somewhere between 550-600hp, so if I could build a combo close to that, I would be happy.

The car is primarily a street car, that will see the odd strip here and there, do a few shows, have some fun at said shows, melt the tyres in top gear, while being relatively competitive at street meets.

[c00nhunterjoe]

550hp is a cake walk. The package hust has to be made right. It will not be a tame streetwise as a bigger inch stroker, but it can be done easily with a 440. What is your idea of a streetable car? Idle quality, loose converters? Etc.

[TOY440]

Due to the fact the car will be hardly driven (read:not a daily driver, a few weekends a month at best), I'm not too worried about idle, as for converter, whatever is needed to mend the cam and the 3.9's together if that makes sense.

[c00nhunterjoe]

If this is more of a maximum performance possible build, then go for a piston that will give you the desired compression ratio to work with the cam and 108 octane available to you.  My current 440 does the job you are looking for propelling my 2 ton turd bucket into the 10s at 125mph in the dead of summer heat on a 9 inch tire and stock suspension.

https://youtu.be/p6kcOMgYxzY
https://youtu.be/ob5ESA6P9F4
https://youtu.be/wsQhqrPZg4c

[TOY440]

Nice effort.

Do you have a link on your build?

[c00nhunterjoe]

I did, but i cant find it. Mine is thrown together with a frankenstein of parts i had on the shelf leftover from years of drag racing. But its buildable by anyone as its nothing special.
-440 block. Mine happens to be 60 over.
-Dome pistons, they are a custom set from venolia, i will have to go by through and check what my static compression is after it was all said and done, but it runs on c12 race fuel, which is comparable to the 107 octane you have available. Think it ended up around 12 or 12.5:1 but the big cam brings the dynamic way down.
-out of the box indy 440-1 heads in max wedge port. A very old set, but no port work has been done.
-jesel valvetrain.
-large old crane solid roller, .750 lift .286@ .050 i think. Will have to pull the card to verify duration.
Hemi crank, i think i stuck a set of callies rods in it? I honestly cant recall but they are stock length parts.
My intake is a masterpeice... its an old edlebrock tm7 that has been cut and rewelded to maxwedge port... its what i could come up with on short notice to fit under the stock hood. Lmao. It will be changed out this season.
850hp holley double pumper.

Trans is a heavy duty built 727. Just about all the heavy duty, save your ankles parts. No need to list them all, no tricks. Reverse man valve body and an 8" converter that can flash over 6k if i push it. The launch in the video was at 1900 or 2000 as the stock suspension/ no cage wont hold anymore then that yet.

Dana 60 rear, full spool, 4.88 gears. 30x9 radial slicks.

Bone stock, origonal suspension. Only addition is 2x3 boxed frame connectors fully welded through the floor pans.

10 gallon cell, aeromotive pump, 1/2 line.

I think thats the basic rundown.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I will also add that there are alot of ways to skin a 10 second cat. Mine is only 1 of them. I would love to hear what a few of the other actual engine builders/ head porters on here suggest that will fit your bill for a 10 second legit 440 in a 3800lb b body.
  Mine will require valvetrain maintanance alot more then 90% of the street builds. With 700lbs of spring pressure i will most likely replace my valve springs biannually for good measure. I went with jesel rockers and oil spray bars for strength and peice of mind.

[TOY440]

I don't think something like that would suit street duties, especially 4.88 gears, but thanks for the insight

[c00nhunterjoe]

Thats why i asked what your version of streetable is. Everyones is different. Mine sees plenty of street use. The 63 max wedge has 5.13s in it with a 32 inch tall slick. Driven on the street all the time. Cruises quite nice at 50-55mph. I steer clear of highways as there are enough nutjobs on the roads, the higbways are insane around my area.
A 10 second true to form 440, is going to need to be a little more wild thenyour avg "street" car.
https://youtu.be/EmFknw4UmDY

[BSB67]

These things always come down to budget and what you call streetable, and whether those two will line up with your 10.99.  

Here are some general rules: In theory you can get to the 10s with a full on race suspension with power for a 120 - 121 mph trap speed.  But in reality, a street suspension wont 60 ft as well, so you have to make up the difference in hp (mph).  So, in general, you'll have a 3950 - 4000 lb race weight, and need to target a 124 -125 ish trap speed.  Now you need to take into account your track atmospheric conditions.  If you know what those are, you can then adjust your track target mph to standard conditions.  From there you can determine hp.  Then there are some net to gross hp adjustments that I make, but this is close enough.

I don't see you getting there with 550 hp without losing some weight and getting more serious about suspension or getting serious about track tuning. Like C00 said,  lots of compression, really good heads, big cam.  May or may not meet your definition for streetable.

[TOY440]

Yeah I see what you are saying, perhaps I should move the goal posts from a strip number that the car will hardly see, to a hp figure? My mate is running 11.5 in the same car as mine but a 2 door, his car is about the same weight as mine though he has a cage and a few other weight adders so he is a tad heavier than mine, he's making just under 440hp at the tyres, with a 360/408 W5, 727 and 9 inch like I have, he's putting some caltracs on in the next week or so.

So if he can produce that hp from a small block and a relatively baby cam, I don't want to be out done with a big block, so if I could make say 600hp+, then how would you go about it with relative street manners, say 3k - 4k stall, something that could melt tyres at will in any gear.

I see a lot is based on heads and cam?

[BSB67]

Yeah I see what you are saying, perhaps I should move the goal posts from a strip number that the car will hardly see, to a hp figure? My mate is running 11.5 in the same car as mine but a 2 door, his car is about the same weight as mine though he has a cage and a few other weight adders so he is a tad heavier than mine, he's making just under 440hp at the tyres, with a 360/408 W5, 727 and 9 inch like I have, he's putting some caltracs on in the next week or so.

So if he can produce that hp from a small block and a relatively baby cam, I don't want to be out done with a big block, so if I could make say 600hp+, then how would you go about it with relative street manners, say 3k - 4k stall, something that could melt tyres at will in any gear.

I see a lot is based on heads and cam?

What is his mph?

[c00nhunterjoe]

Your 1st goal is better imo. Set an et goal, not a hp goal. I hate the "i want an XXXhp motor" why? For what? Most guys will never truly use the hp they wish to attain. Your goal to run a specific et is a realistic goal. If a 440 required to run a 10.99 is not streetable, then move your desired et. An 11.50 440 is relativly mild in my opinion. Basicly take the 440 i described, drop 1 point in compression, drop to a .600-.625 solid flat tappet, 260 at half. Either keep the max wedge heads or run a heavily ported edlebrock. A 10" converter (3500-4k behind tbat mill) and a set of 4.10s and slicks will easily nail the 11.50 on stock suspension.

[TOY440]

121mph, 60ft is down though

[TOY440]

There is someone here running 10.80's with a factory 440, 10.5 comp 1st gen stealth heads that were hand ported flow about 290-300cfm, 263/270 @ 0.50 and 0.65 lift at 108 lobe separation, dual 850 carb tunnel ram, harland sharp 1.5 rockers, 3.9 rear end, though he weighs less that 1500kg.

I would have no issue if I were to run 11.5-12:1 comp

[c00nhunterjoe]

Who on this site has a charger that has a race weight of 3300 pounds with driver? That would have to be a stripped down full fiberglass shell to get the car to weigh 3100 lbs with all chromolly parts, and even then, im not sure it would be that light.

[TOY440]

Sorry, when I say here, I mean in Aus

[c00nhunterjoe]

Ah, got it. Well i would still like to hear details of how that car got down to that particular weight as i would be willing to bet that it is nowhere near a stock type street car anymore if it is a charger.

That car weighing so little, doesnt need more then the 3.90 gewrs to get moving, nor the horsepower required of a 2 ton charger. If you want to go fast in a 2 ton charger, you need horsepower. For a milder engine, you need a big stroker, if you stick with a 440, its going to be more towards the radical side. No other way around it.  You can get into the 10s with 590hp and 3800lbs, BUT the car will be a dedicated race car. Light weight trans, full race suspension, a ton of gear, super loose converter. There is 0 way around it.

[TOY440]

It's a Valuant ute, sorry mate, I should have specified

[BSB67]

Your 1st goal is better imo. Set an et goal, not a hp goal. I hate the "i want an XXXhp motor" why? For what? Most guys will never truly use the hp they wish to attain. Your goal to run a specific et is a realistic goal. If a 440 required to run a 10.99 is not streetable, then move your desired et. An 11.50 440 is relativly mild in my opinion. Basicly take the 440 i described, drop 1 point in compression, drop to a .600-.625 solid flat tappet, 260 at half. Either keep the max wedge heads or run a heavily ported edlebrock. A 10" converter (3500-4k behind tbat mill) and a set of 4.10s and slicks will easily nail the 11.50 on stock suspension.

I agree with this too.  But I like backing into a hp estimate to help put in perspective where the motor needs to go.

[BSB67]

121mph, 60ft is down though

For perspective, to get this to get to 10.99 on motor alone, he'll need to go about 126, i.e. add another 60 -70 hp.  or drop the 60 ft by 0.1 sec. and add 40 hp, or remove 500 lbs

[BSB67]

There is someone here running 10.80's with a factory 440, 10.5 comp 1st gen stealth heads that were hand ported flow about 290-300cfm, 263/270 @ 0.50 and 0.65 lift at 108 lobe separation, dual 850 carb tunnel ram, harland sharp 1.5 rockers, 3.9 rear end, though he weighs less that 1500kg.

I would have no issue if I were to run 11.5-12:1 comp

Put that motor in your car, assume the same 60 ft time, and it would run about 11.50 due to weight change alone.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I give it an 11.40 due to the tunnel ram. 

[BSB67]

I give it an 11.40 due to the tunnel ram. 

The reality is that it will 60 ft worse, not the same.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Touche' my friend.

[TOY440]

So go to a better head? Raise the compression?

[c00nhunterjoe]

We need to reestablish the goal before reccomending parts. How much suspension changes are you wilking to make? Loose moving front end, caltracs, drag shocks make a huge et change without needing horsepower but affect street manners.

[TOY440]

Ultimately I want a tuff street car, something I can take to a few shows a year and light up the main straight as long as I want, but, want to be relatively competitive at the strip on the rare occasion I go there.

Something I can take out for the sunday cruise, then perhaps bolt on some caltracs, some 90/10's in the front and some slicks and go racing once or twice a year.

If I can get enough power out of the engine, I'll take care of the rest, but the rest I'm not up to yet, if any of that makes sense

[440]

Something like this 440      

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g_H7UQjFkT4

[TOY440]

That's a hearse from New Zealand, tuff bit of gear, but also blown, I prefer N/A

[Challenger340]

IMO,
BEST start to a 10 sec effort is to the Car itself well before the Engine !
60 ft times being so critical to E.T. can dictate the need, or lack thereof, for substantial HP in the Engine itself ?

To explain further here...
anything GAINED or LOST in 60ft times can pretty much be doubled off E.T. ?

Example:
say you have a Car running 123 mph @ an 11.50 E.T., but with a 1.79 sec 60 ft time ?
theoretically,
if you DROP the 60 ft time down around 1.5 seconds ?  That same Car although still going 123 mph in the 1/4 mile(HP did NOT change), would probably drop it's E.T. down around  a very low 11.0 or High 10's ?

This is just for "illustration" here off the top of my head, I didn't go punch any actual numbers. But the example is relative to my point.... that being.... you can go FASTER(lower E.T) with LESS or the same Horsepower by setting the Car up well... for a really good 60ft time....
as opposed.....
to pounding/wasting more & more HP at a poor Car setup ?

550-600 hp with a stock stroke 440 is more than doable even on 91 Octane Pump Gas, been there DONE THAT lots, even with just Solid Flat Tappet Camshafts/Ported Stealth Heads, which can run on the Street for many thousands of miles with very little maintenance(Odd V/Lash setting spring & Fall)  

If you are planning RACE Gas and better Heads/Race Roller Cam as part of the budget ?
I would suggest careful planning/parts selection can dip well down lower 10's with a good car setup, albeit with higher maintenance/mile.

[TOY440]

I understand what you are saying, makes sense.

When you speak of ported stealth heads and cam, what spec cam would you suggest and what kind of flow numbers you think the heads need to be? Would the size of the cam dictate valve reliefs in the pistons? Should I be getting a piston and rod combo to be at 0 deck height? Things like that, don't eant to waste money on things that I will have to change later, in particular the bottom end, I dont mind lifting the heads for more work or a cam swap later down the track, though this is primarily a street car not a race car

[c00nhunterjoe]

Unless you buy the oe replacement piston (flat top no releifs), they should all come with sufficient feleifs for ykur bhild. BUT, your machine shop should be hand in hand witb you and discussing prior to yku showing up on their door step with boxes of parts saying "here, fix this".
  The block needs to go to the shop first, get cleaned, checked and measured. You cant pick a piston until you know how big the holes need to be, then they will see how square the block is to see if it needs milling. If you buy a piston for a theroretical 0 deck, then find out your deck needs a bunch of milling, you could end up with a positive piston..... it has happened.

You still havnt established what you want? I could throw any cam size out there amd head flow numbers again. Where are we going with the car?  A street car that is competetive at the track but a good sunday cruiser really doesnt say anything. What is competetive at your tracks? What kind of street cars are down there? For example, in my town, there are tons of tagged and driven 8 second 1/4 mile cars. Yes, im serious. My local track is home to the yellowbullet nationals so we have insane cars all over my area. What class do you plan to run when you go to the track?
   Dont forget that on the street, 1000 hp is useless if you run a bfg radial ta. You have inferred driving on street tires then bolting on slicks to go to the track, but still want to have a handle on the street cars. Lots of questions.

[TOY440]

Your questions and info so far is pretty priceless, gives me more to think about, so I just want to say thanks, but to keep it simple I guess haha, perhaps a build that will get me around 600hp (which I'm told is very doable with a big block, even at 440 cubes), the rest I will sort out as I go (suspension, traction aids etc as I get to them), atleast I know the engine wont be holding me back.

The block has already been to the machine shop, had the necessary checks and measures done, is now 40 thou over.

[c00nhunterjoe]

If 600hp in a 440 is the goal, then max wedge ports are not needed. A properly ported set of stealths or edlebrocks will do the job. I STRONGLY suggest you contact prh or heyoldguy on this forum as they specialize in mopar cylinder heads. It would be worth purchasing a set through them already ported. They will be done right the 1st time, guaranteed. They may even suggest the new trickflow heads but i do not personally have hands on experience with those.

[Challenger340]

"Rule of Thumb" at this point in the feasibility study of your power goals, is to take your target goal of 600 hp / 2 = 300 cfm Cylinder Head at the Cam Lift.
FAR MORE to it than the above obviously....
just say'in,
for illustration of what you will need far before any actual parts purchases, it can be clearly seen that the 300 cfm would dictate ported Eddy's, or ported Stealth's to get 300 cfm ? which may then given the costs associated to porting the lesser Heads ? then mandate investigation/comparisons to just buying a TF240 Head.

But as mentioned, this RoT is NOT written in stone !
Camshafts/Intakes, etc., etc., ALL can play a role where you can exceed the RoT and get 600 hp from a 280 cfm Head, or conversely, only get 580 hp from 320 cfm Heads with poor combo selection.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about in CFM versus HP
* 299 cfm @ .600" Valve Lift Stealth's we Ported
* 244* @ .050 Solid Flat Tappet Camshaft(very streetable long term)
* Pump 91 Octane
* "451" which is 440 Internals installed in a 400 Block(lighter Piston)
585 hp and 588 Ft/Lbs Trq.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,123378.0.html

[TOY440]

How much comp is that combo? We run 98 octane over here, I can go as high as 12:1, as my mates small block stroker runs that with absolutely no issues what so ever

[alfaitalia]

Be aware that Octane rating are measured differently in the US to most other countries......so your 91 octane there will probably not be the same as 91 octane there.

Example;

UK std unleaded "95"octane = is what they call 90/91 octane in the USA

UK "super" "97/99"octane = is what they call 92 /93 octane in the USA

[TOY440]

I understand what you are sayin, some are measured in RON, some aren't, though my mates car runs 12:1 comp all day everyday with BP ultimate 98, and it has no issues at all........ and hauls ass mind you haha

I think that would give a decemt insight in to the quality of fuel we have here. Also, I have had big blocks and LS's before, it's a fairly decent and reliable fuel

[Challenger340]

How much comp is that combo? We run 98 octane over here, I can go as high as 12:1, as my mates small block stroker runs that with absolutely no issues what so ever

10.7:1
However,
"Static" C.R. means NOTHING, other than as a base imput to planning for your Heads/Camshaft/Dynamic Cylinder pressures. If this is a primarily "street" effort with occassional track usage of respectable E.T posted,
and,
you have readily available 98 Octane and plan to use it ?
then
I would highly suggest some homework reading around what's called DCR or "Dynamic Compression Ratio", wherein you can then have an understanding of why Cam events, can even be used to make 12:1 run fine on even 91 Octane.
That's not always reccommended, but again here... for "illustration" purposes an understanding how CAM events dictate actual PRESSURE the Fuel quality see's... not "Static" CR which is just the theoretical start point.

[TOY440]

All you guys are off ya heads haha, that's why I like this site, you guys know what you're doing, I'm just a nobody wanting to screw together a tuff combo, with just a bit of help from those that have been there and done that, just a proven combo built with a little bit of a budget I guess

By the way, who is PRH?

Geez, it's 5 am here, I have been up all night, you guys are keeping me up haha

[justcruisin]

Just to add to what has been said in regard to DCR, if you intend to push the limit of pump gas compression, everything needs to be right - tune, timing curve, plug heat range, high power ignition, quench, cool running temps, under hood temps, cool air intake, elevation, etc etc, especially if you live in a hot area, lot more to it than shooting for a number.

[Challenger340]

Just to add to what has been said in regard to DCR, if you intend to push the limit of pump gas compression, everything needs to be right - tune, timing curve, plug heat range, high power ignition, quench, cool running temps, under hood temps, cool air intake, elevation, etc etc, especially if you live in a hot area, lot more to it than shooting for a number.

EXACTLY ! and very well said     and that's just the start, even TONS MORE little tricks being done WELL BEFORE any final tuning, that are involved during the Machining and Head Porting & Prep, that also contribute far more than can be explained here.

That's why there is far more to it than just looking for a "tough combo that someone can screw together" ?   It just very simply.... ain't THAT simple !
and hence....
why IMO, unless you are going to invest 30 or 40 years gaining experience building BB Mopars ?
IMO, you would be well advised.....
to contact Jim LaRoy (heyoldguy) or Dwyane Porter (PRH) on this site for your Engine/Component purchases like Heads/Intake/Camshafts or even complete Engines.

[TOY440]

Thanks for the info guys, kinda glad I asked the question, kinda sorry I did.

Thanks for your help, cheers!

[c00nhunterjoe]

Dont be sorry. Spend the money once, and spend it right, especially in your case with import taxes overseas

[440]

Dont be sorry. Spend the money once, and spend it right, especially in your case with import taxes overseas

We get screwed here in Australia no matter which way you look at it, it just depends on how hard......