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Chryco and/or Firefighter advise please.

Started by deputycrawford, April 30, 2006, 12:02:10 AM

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deputycrawford

April 30, 2006, 12:02:10 AM
Chryco, you mentioned in a thread that you would run an Engle cam for hydraulic and Mopar for solid. I have the  hydraulic Comp cams high lift series .545 lift cam with 241/247 duration @50. I just called Engle and asked about going to the KV-3 solid. Thats the .575 lift 250 duration @50. After lash it would be .555 lift. My power band goes soft by 6000 rpms. I want to shift around 6600 rpms. I also want the extra power of the solid up top. Should I be thinking about another cam or is the Engle ok? Ideas would be cool. Oh; I am running a 3500 stall 9 1/2 inch converter and a 4.10 gear.
If it ain't wide open; it ain't running.        Rule number one in motocross racing: Pin it; row the gear box; and wait until you hit something.     At work my motto is: If you need me, call someone else.

Chryco Psycho

#1
April 30, 2006, 11:01:22 AM
typically the 250* duration cams will go to 6700 , the KV3 is exactly where you need to be
the The KV4 is also a good choice as the start of the power band is still below the stall on your converter & it will pull to 7000  +
Ultradyne also has a slightly larger cam , 255* /582 lift with .016 lash , 108* CL grind #43799-TF57 - TF57- 08 which is virtually identical to the KV4

deputycrawford

#2
April 30, 2006, 03:01:20 PM
So sould I just go for it and go with the KV-4? I only have 9.35 to 1 compression. Im afraid of a lazy bottom end.
If it ain't wide open; it ain't running.        Rule number one in motocross racing: Pin it; row the gear box; and wait until you hit something.     At work my motto is: If you need me, call someone else.

firefighter3931

#3
April 30, 2006, 05:29:39 PM
Deputy, this is for your 383 motor correct ? With 9.35 static you don't want to go too big on the cam or it'll be gutless down low...especially with 383 cubic inches. The comp grind would probably be close to ideal if it were a solid cam. Most hydralics go into valve float around 6k anyway...lifter pumpup sucks. For yours i'd be looking at a kV-2/KV-3 ground on a tight 108lsa, installed on a 104* intake centerline.
 
The cam specs would look like this :

275*/281* advertised
245*/250* @ .050 valve lift
.575/.582 lift
108* LSA installed 4* advanced (104*)

Ron
68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs

deputycrawford

#4
April 30, 2006, 09:15:56 PM
Thanks both of you. I do drive the car to work now and then. I like the way the car drives now with the Comp .545 in it. Both of you talk Engle so I checked them out. The KV-3 would be .557 and .555 after the .018 and .020 lash and the duration at .050 wouldn't be much more. I wondered why my car got soft at 6000 rpms. I will go with a solid and it looks like I will go with the KV-3. Chryco is right. I would love to go to the KV-4 for the strip but I drive it on the street too often. KV-3 it is. What should I expect to pick up in et's with this cam? Does 4 tenths sound like too much? Im in the very low 13's and am going for the high 12's. I hope this cam makes it.
If it ain't wide open; it ain't running.        Rule number one in motocross racing: Pin it; row the gear box; and wait until you hit something.     At work my motto is: If you need me, call someone else.

firefighter3931

#5
April 30, 2006, 11:20:35 PM
Well, you asked for opinions so here goes : The kv-3 is too much cam for a 9.5:1 383. This will end up pushing the torque peak up high...waaay past your stall speed. Maybe if you had 11:1 compression i could see it working. If you're insistent on running the kv-3 then invest in a 4200 stall and a set of 4.56's for the 83/4 to go along with it.  :Twocents:

Ron

Ps. Take a look at this graph and see what happens when the cam is specced too large. These are the dyno results for Vegas Mikes e-headed 440 with the original MP 590 and the replacement i recommended which is a Comp solid grind xs282s. Pay close attention to the torque numbers at 3500-3700 rpm. The comp cam is smaller yet it made an additional 135 ftlbs of torque at 3600 rpm. I would say that's pretty important to a guy who's running a 3500 stall...wouldn't you  ;)
68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs

Chryco Psycho

#6
May 01, 2006, 01:14:53 AM
I didn`t realize it was for a 383 , I tend to agree with Ron

deputycrawford

#7
May 01, 2006, 07:17:23 PM
Ok, so the KV-3 is too much. Is the KV-2 ok? As you can see my cam specs are .545 and 241/247 dur now. The KV-3 would be .010 more lift after lash and not even ten degrees more at .050. I love the way the car drives now but want it to rev past 6000. Is my .545 too much now? The car is just so drivable now.
If it ain't wide open; it ain't running.        Rule number one in motocross racing: Pin it; row the gear box; and wait until you hit something.     At work my motto is: If you need me, call someone else.

deputycrawford

#8
May 01, 2006, 07:37:15 PM
Ok, I just checked the Engle site and noticed that the KV-2  will be .540 after lash and the duration at .050 would be right where my Comp hydraulic is now. I then looked at your chart firefighter. If I love the way the car drives now then I shoud probably go with the KV-2. I shoud drive the same but rev higher without lifter pump up problems. Am I on the right track? I do have to ask; do I still degree it forward at the 106 degree area? I ask because the KV-2 is ground at 110 degree center and the KV-3 is ground on the 108. My Comp is ground at 110 but set up at the 106 mark.
If it ain't wide open; it ain't running.        Rule number one in motocross racing: Pin it; row the gear box; and wait until you hit something.     At work my motto is: If you need me, call someone else.

firefighter3931

#9
May 01, 2006, 08:32:11 PM
Deputy, i would run a split pattern grind....see the specs i posted above. KV-2 Intake/KV-3 exhaust ground on a 108 lsa and installed on a 104* intake centerline. The tighter lsa will help it build cylinder pressure which translates into increased torque but the cam will still have plenty of duration to carry the engine into the 6500 rpm range. This will make more torque down low and more horsepower up top while keeping the valvetrain stable at higher rpms...over 6k. The engle cam will have a faster ramp speed (vs. Comp xe hydraulic) which creates more area under the curve....that means more power, everywhere.

The Comp xe's are good grinds but it's the hydraulic lifters that are the achilles heel....valvetrain stability becomes an issue at high engine speeds and power starts to drop off after 6k...that's just the reality. Mopar Muscle did a solid vs hydraulic cam shootout awhile back with some interesting dyno results. Both cams were specced almost identical with lift/duration after lash on the solid factored in. The hydraulic cam  nosed over around 5800-6k and power dropped off hard soon after, while the solid pulled another 5-600 rpm. Basicly, the cam was limiting this engine's rpm/power capability.

You'll have to custom order this stick but i don't think Engle will charge all that much more for it....maybe $20.00 or so vs. an off the shelf grind. It's well worth the extra expense, inmo. This is pretty much the old Hughes Engines 4550 grind that they used to sell when Engle was making their cams for them.

Ron
68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs

deputycrawford

#10
May 01, 2006, 11:28:47 PM
Ok firefighter. I am kinda looking for the Comp Cam I have now, just in a solid lifter form?  If I have that right, I will call them and ask how long it would take to make one close to that for me. Do you have a ready made cam you have in mind already? I am open to suggestions. I just like the looks of the Hughes/ Engle cams I see in the catalogs. I have heard that Huges doesn't warranty their cams and Engle does. That why I chose Engle. Again; I am open to suggestions.  Remember, I have 906 heads that were milled .050 and port cleaned and matched. 
If it ain't wide open; it ain't running.        Rule number one in motocross racing: Pin it; row the gear box; and wait until you hit something.     At work my motto is: If you need me, call someone else.

firefighter3931

#11
May 01, 2006, 11:50:42 PM
Comp does make an xe series solid cam....and they work very well. Runner has the xs282s in his car and it's running 11.30's with an e-head lowdeck stroker. That is also the same cam that produced the results in the graph above in Vegas Mikes e-headed 440. The xs282s would be pretty close to the kv-2/kv-3 but it has less lift and a little more seat timing. It's also ground on a 110*lsa which, inmo, is slghtly too wide for a mild compression 383. The 108* is what i'd choose if it were mine....ultimately, the choice is yours though. Both cams would work fine and perform similarly. Without flow #'s on your heads it's hard to say whether the Engle (with increased lift) would actually produce more power.

The "old" hughes cams were just Engle grinds...i'd agree ; stay with Engle for the warrenty....assuming you decide to go that way.  :yesnod:

Ron
68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs

deputycrawford

#12
May 02, 2006, 11:33:52 PM
Ok, I am listening very carefully so please be patient with me. I seem to be getting a mixed signal here. The engle KV-2 is probably the best lift and duration numbers for my small 383 but the 110 degree lobe center is too much. You would rather see 108. My cam now is ground on the 110 but degreed to 106. The KV-3 is at 108 but the lift and duration numbers are more. I also checked the Comp catalog at the xs282 and see that it is at 110. Whats the turn around time on a custom Engle grind of the KV-2 with the 108 center. Am I just thinkning too much about this? I am just trying to be more exact than the average guy who throws one in just to hear it idle.
If it ain't wide open; it ain't running.        Rule number one in motocross racing: Pin it; row the gear box; and wait until you hit something.     At work my motto is: If you need me, call someone else.

jg68

#13
May 03, 2006, 02:26:00 PM
Quote from: deputycrawford on May 02, 2006, 11:33:52 PM
Ok, I am listening very carefully so please be patient with me. I seem to be getting a mixed signal here. The engle KV-2 is probably the best lift and duration numbers for my small 383 but the 110 degree lobe center is too much. You would rather see 108. My cam now is ground on the 110 but degreed to 106. The KV-3 is at 108 but the lift and duration numbers are more. I also checked the Comp catalog at the xs282 and see that it is at 110. Whats the turn around time on a custom Engle grind of the KV-2 with the 108 center. Am I just thinkning too much about this? I am just trying to be more exact than the average guy who throws one in just to hear it idle.

Deputy, i agree with firefighter, go with a 108*, keep the duration & lift the same, comp made me a custom grind, you can also check with them on price & warr. If you go with the KV-2, just have them grind it on a 108*, with everything else staying the same, comp will do the same with that XS282 if you like that cam better :icon_smile_wink:

firefighter3931

#14
May 03, 2006, 07:15:13 PM
Quote from: deputycrawford on May 02, 2006, 11:33:52 PM
Ok, I am listening very carefully so please be patient with me. I seem to be getting a mixed signal here. The engle KV-2 is probably the best lift and duration numbers for my small 383 but the 110 degree lobe center is too much. You would rather see 108. My cam now is ground on the 110 but degreed to 106. The KV-3 is at 108 but the lift and duration numbers are more. I also checked the Comp catalog at the xs282 and see that it is at 110. Whats the turn around time on a custom Engle grind of the KV-2 with the 108 center. Am I just thinkning too much about this? I am just trying to be more exact than the average guy who throws one in just to hear it idle.

Those are good questions and i'm glad you're taking the time to ask for an explanation  :thumbs:

You are correct....looking at the catalog, both cams are ground on a 110 lsa. It's my opinion that the smaller displacement (383) would benifit more from the tighter lobe centers (108 vs 110). Either the Comp or the Engle will have to be custom ordered and ground on a 108* lsa....no big deal. With iron headed combos the exhaust flow is usually inferior to the intake flow in terms of the "flow balance". The ideal ratio is 70-75% exhaust to intake....which most iron heads won't have unless there has been extensive portwork done to them. The split pattern grinds have more duration on the exhaust side to compensate for this.....look at your current Comp grind....it's a split pattern with more exhaust duration than intake.  ;) Comp and many other cam companies do this for a reason and these work well as you've seen in your own particular case.

The Engle grind i outlined above is basicly a split pattern similar to your current cam and the xs282s solid you're looking at. So, if you go with the Engle cam just have them grind out what you want because it won't be something that's on the shelf anyway. Basicly you want a kv-2 intake lobe and a kv-3 exhaust lobe ground on a 108 degree lobe seperation. If you go with the Comp xs282s all you need to tell them is to tighten up the lsa to 108* when they're making the cam for you. The xs282s is allready a split pattern stick.

In terms of installed centerline don't confuse that with lsa. A 110* intake centerline installed at 106* is 4* advanced which is where you are now. If the cam is ground on a 108* intake centerline then you'll want to degree it in at 104* for a 4* advance. Most cam grinders build in 4* of advance right into the cam to allow for chain stretch over time.  ;) If they recommend a specific installed centerline then use it. Personally, i prefer to advance them 4* for the reason outlined above.  :yesnod:

Hope this helps....

Ron
68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs

deputycrawford

#15
May 04, 2006, 12:03:57 AM
That helps a ton. I will have a custom grind made. I like the way you explained the KV-2 intake and the KV-3 exhaust with the 108 lobe center. I will have that done. Thanks much for the time. Im getting excited. I will have the money by the end of the month. Like a kid in a candy store.
If it ain't wide open; it ain't running.        Rule number one in motocross racing: Pin it; row the gear box; and wait until you hit something.     At work my motto is: If you need me, call someone else.

firefighter3931

#16
May 04, 2006, 08:19:53 AM
You're welcome Deputy....i'm sure you're gonna luv the solid cam experience !  :devil:

Ron
68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs

Steve P.

#17
May 06, 2006, 04:25:44 AM
:boogie: :boogie: :boogie: :boogie:


I get excited every time I see that graph..... :drive: :cheers: :2thumbs:
Steve P.
Holiday, Florida

deputycrawford

#18
May 07, 2006, 12:15:40 PM
Firefighter, I had just one last question. You posted the cams specs above at .575/ .582 lift and 245/ 250 duration. You then mentioned that I forgot to mention that it is a 383. What would your new cam specs be for my motor?
If it ain't wide open; it ain't running.        Rule number one in motocross racing: Pin it; row the gear box; and wait until you hit something.     At work my motto is: If you need me, call someone else.

firefighter3931

#19
May 08, 2006, 07:39:32 AM
Quote from: deputycrawford on May 07, 2006, 12:15:40 PM
Firefighter, I had just one last question. You posted the cams specs above at .575/ .582 lift and 245/ 250 duration. You then mentioned that I forgot to mention that it is a 383. What would your new cam specs be for my motor?

Yep, that's the cam. Those lift numbers are before lash so the net lift will be slightly less than the advertised numbers...obviously. I did realze you were running a 383 from seeing your previous posts.  ;) I don't think Chryco was aware of the engine size based on the kv-3 recommendation so that's why i was seeking clarification...just so we're all on the same page.  :icon_smile_big:

Ron
68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs

Lightning

#20
May 09, 2006, 02:12:53 PM
so a Split-pattern cam can work for a stroker 360 as well? (trying to fish for ideas to help my 'bird out)
when racing deals fall apart.....you go home, like me.

firefighter3931

#21
May 09, 2006, 08:42:02 PM
Quote from: Lightning 06 on May 09, 2006, 02:12:53 PM
so a Split-pattern cam can work for a stroker 360 as well? (trying to fish for ideas to help my 'bird out)

No reason why it wouldn't. Ultimately, it depends on the flow balance between the intake and exhaust ports. For most applications, a split pattern works well. The factory cams were mostly split pattern, fwiw.

Ron
68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs

deputycrawford

#22
May 10, 2006, 11:40:29 PM
UPDATE. I ordered the Engle custom grind. Engle's "Master" program would not allow the exact numbers you gave me but they got close. They could grind the numbers below and I gave the approval.

275*/281*     advertised duration

245*/253*     @ .050 valve lift

560/575     Lift

108*         LSA

I don't have a turn around time yet, but they did'nt sound like they had a problem filling the order. Does that sound close enough? I felt it did so I told them to do it. I don't have the experience with solid cams but I feel the new cam will act the same but give the extra rev. What do you think Firefighter?


If it ain't wide open; it ain't running.        Rule number one in motocross racing: Pin it; row the gear box; and wait until you hit something.     At work my motto is: If you need me, call someone else.

firefighter3931

#23
May 11, 2006, 04:11:49 AM
That looks pretty good to me.  :thumbs: A few extra degrees of duration on the exhaust side won't hurt the performance at all. This cam will hit pretty hard in it's "sweet spot" and have better manners than the hydraulic Comp that's in there now.  :icon_smile_big:

Ron
68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs

deputycrawford

#24
May 11, 2006, 08:13:56 AM
Good. I'm getting all giddy just waiting for the cam to arrive. I will ujpdate everyone when it is in the car. I only drive the car a couple thousand miles a year. I should only have to lash it once a year or so.
If it ain't wide open; it ain't running.        Rule number one in motocross racing: Pin it; row the gear box; and wait until you hit something.     At work my motto is: If you need me, call someone else.

Chryco Psycho

#25
May 14, 2006, 12:59:24 AM
Looks good , Can`t wait to see the results

deputycrawford

#26
May 14, 2006, 01:36:38 PM
Thanks for answering here also Chrco. I listen very closely to the info you and firefighter give any of us. I try to answer many questions myself but will always listen to other ideas. Thansk for everything. I will get back when I get the other cam in the car.       "We got'em now Flash!" :icon_smile_big:
If it ain't wide open; it ain't running.        Rule number one in motocross racing: Pin it; row the gear box; and wait until you hit something.     At work my motto is: If you need me, call someone else.

Duey

#27
May 14, 2006, 08:29:55 PM
Deputy (Ron/Neil)...that looks pretty close to a KV-2, right?  Sweet!  I think that or the KV-3 will be in my beastie in the future...  :icon_smile_big:

Duey
73 SE Brougham, F3 , 440, 850 Pro-form, 727 w TA 10", 4.10SG

firefighter3931

#28
May 15, 2006, 02:33:05 AM
Quote from: Duey on May 14, 2006, 08:29:55 PM
Deputy (Ron/Neil)...that looks pretty close to a KV-2, right?  Sweet!  I think that or the KV-3 will be in my beastie in the future...  :icon_smile_big:

Duey

Yep, pretty much a kv-2 with tighter lobes and a little extra exhaust duration.  ;D The same type of split grind would work well in yours....just on a larger scale for the extra cubes....kv-3 (intake lobe)/kv-4 (exhaust lobe) @ 108* lsa.  :thumbs:

Ron
68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs
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