Mild street 440! could it possilby go 500 to 550 hp?

[Harper]

ok guys here is my plan, tell me where i am going wrong and why please.
"BSB67" your thoughts sir.

Mild Street 440:
Stock 1972 440 block

Block:
cleaned,  over bore,cleaned, decked, hone match to new Pistons, new freeze plugs

Crank:
stock (whatever it winds up being, cast or forged) machined or polished whatever it needs.
balanced

Rods:
reworked or possibly new Scat or Eagle

Pistons: Forged or Hyper eutectic  (reasonable priced not breaking the bank) possibly lighter than stock if not to expensive.

Heads:
Aluminum possibly Edelbrock RPM assembled with good locks, retainers, decent valves, decent valve job.

Rockers:
stock 1.5 ratio to be upgraded later down the road.

Cam:
Roller cam and lifters (possibly custom)  grind undecided nothing to exotic.
possibly around .581 lift Duration undecided
lobe separation undecided

valve covers:
Stock Painted hemi orange

oil pan:
Stock Painted hemi orange

oil pump:
high volume (not high pressure)

compression ratio Target:
9.5:1 or maybe 10:1

Intake:
Edelbrock RPM

Carb:
Holly 850 cfm

headers:
custom Long Tube with (possibly) 3 inch X pipe and Flow masters with tail pipes

[BLK 68 R/T]

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/board,30.0.html

[Scaregrabber]

You should make your goal easy with that setup.
I like the Trick Flow heads better than the Edelbrocks.
You need a crank, new pistons and rod work, I suggest going directly to a stroker kit from 440source. You don't need it for your goals but it will probably cost you the same anyway and you can make  more power than you want and you can also build more tractable package as well.

[Harper]

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/board,30.0.html

info overload!!! thanks lol

You should make your goal easy with that setup.
I like the Trick Flow heads better than the Edelbrocks.
You need a crank, new pistons and rod work, I suggest going directly to a stroker kit from 440source. You don't need it for your goals but it will probably cost you the same anyway and you can make  more power than you want and you can also build more tractable package as well.

absolutely if the stroker kit is similar in price, then by all means i will look at that. thanks

[Harper]

A friend here in town liked the way our 451 ran in my '71 Road Runner so he asked us to do a 440 stroker for his Charger. You know, just something he could drive around and buy tires for and NEVER wind over 6000 rpm, uh huh.

   1969 440 block bored +.040"
   ProGram 4-bolt mains
   Melling HV oil pump
   4.15 stroke Eagle crank
   6.76 Eagle H-beam rods
   Diamond dished pistons
   10.3:1 compression
   Lunati 60333 Solid Roller 249/255 @ .050", .585/.600 lift
   PRW 1.5:1 Stainless Roller Rockers
   Hughes Engines Studs and Hold Downs
   Smith Brothers Pushrods
   Edelbrock Performer RPM heads, ported, keeping stock port window and 2.14/1.81 valves
      Before porting: 73cfm@.100, 148@.200, 209@.300, 254@.400, 276@.500, 287@.600, 291@.700
      After porting:   75cfm@.100, 156@.200, 221@.300, 259@.400, 292@.500, 309@.600, 321@.700
   Edelbrock Torker II intake
   950 cfm Quick Fuel
   91 octane Shell Premium
     
     RPM       TRQ        HP
     3500     608.8     405.7
     3600     616.0     422.2
     3700     617.9     435.3
     3800     623.9     451.4
     3900     624.6     463.8
     4000     626.5     477.2
     4100     628.2     490.4
     4200     635.1     507.9
     4300     633.3     518.5
     4400     638.4     534.8
     4500     640.7     549.0
     4600     642.0     562.3
     4700     640.2     572.9
     4800     639.7     584.6
     4900     636.0     593.4
     5000     628.5     598.3
     5100     627.0     608.9
     5200     619.4     613.3
     5300     611.7     617.3
     5400     613.5     630.8
     5500     604.6     633.1
     5600     595.5     635.0
     5700     590.2     640.5
     5800     581.0     641.6
     5900     570.8     641.2
     6000     557.4     636.8

see this is all i want lol tirefrying, big block power that will stay together...

[Harper]

I am ok with Trick Flow, the main thing i need to know is can you bolt them on a stock RV engine without any issues? clearance etc. Does the rockers from the stock heads fit the TF's, push rods? , valve covers? headers? i dont really want anything Special or exclusive to a certain head, it want stock parts to be able to be used if at some point they need to.

[BLK 68 R/T]

If you're planning on a roller cam you won't be running stock rockers as they are not adjustable. Also any other head and valvetrain other than bonestock will almost always require custom length pushrods.

[justcruisin]

If money isn't an issue go for a build out of the proven engine builds that suits your needs. If you are planing on using a bunch of stock pieces I imagine money is a consideration (like most of us), if that is the case put your money into a solid short block and build on that as money allows.  Bolting a performance head to a stock RV block will be far less than ideal.

[Harper]

If you're planning on a roller cam you won't be running stock rockers as they are not adjustable. Also any other head and valvetrain other than bonestock will almost always require custom length pushrods.

good info, thats exactly why i ask, I dont mind roller rockers but i wanted to build bottom end first then add some of the other performance parts, i knew this would require custom pushrod lengths, I will be going with a Roller cam and lifters that is a fact.

If money isn't an issue go for a build out of the proven engine builds that suits your needs. If you are planing on using a bunch of stock pieces I imagine money is a consideration (like most of us), if that is the case put your money into a solid short block and build on that as money allows.  Bolting a performance head to a stock RV block will be far less than ideal.

money is always an issue, thats a given. I just dont want to throw away $160 or aftermarket valve covers if i can work with stock ones...was my point (chrome has never made a engine go faster)and the more stock it looks, the better i like it, the insides are what matter.
that is the plan, short block build and add as money allows.

i will build the block,it will not remain stock, it will be bored, decked etc, at that point it really wont just be a stock RV block any longer. My point is you can get into HI port this, custom that and before you know it every piece in your engine is not usable on another stock block or whatever. I want to at least try to keep that at a min. if possible.

[heyoldguy]

Engine build by forum committee always scares the crap out of me.

[Harper]

Engine build by forum committee always scares the crap out of me.

I am in it to get a close idea, i am sure my machinist (40 year veteran on Ford and Mopar) will set me straight in the end

what i want to happen! build mega horse power mopar engine that will alter the rotation of the earth (from idle) with mostly stock parts!!

what will probably happen, I i will use a 440 block from an RV and every bolt, nut, every everything will be aftermarket performance. lol

it will probably hold together well, it probably will sound great,   build decent hp but i am already feeling it will not be cheap...

"call me Scrooge but my plan for the day is to spend the least amount on Christmas so as to have enough to build my Engine when i start on it" lol

[c00nhunterjoe]

The most important thing if you stick with a true 440, is piston selection.  DO NOT go by the advertised compression ratios. They are wrong. Go by the compression height of the piston and do the math. This will make or break your bottom end.

[Challenger340]

Again, just say'in....
1.) you can NEVER exceed the speed of your wallet
and
2.) Engines by committee typically disappoint.(that I've seen so many times of late with BB Mopars it ain't funny anymore)

That said,
500-550 hp(and even more) with a non stroker 440, reliable and streetable is a piece of piss depending upon WHO is doing it.... even with Stealth Heads and a Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft !

It escapes me why you are already into ROLLER Camshafts and TF240's for THAT power level ?

[Challenger340]

Engine build by forum committee always scares the crap out of me.

and me as well !

[70sixpkrt]

My setup:
440 bored .030=446
KB 237 pistons .003 deck height
Forged crank .010 under
Eagle 4340 H-beam rods
Comp is 10.25:1
Eddy heads 84cc with stage 1 and bowl blend
Straightline Cam 234/242@.050 540/525 solid with 112 lsa (4* built in) installed straight up
6-pack aluminum manifold with stock carbs. (Using ProMax stuff)
Comp pro-magnum 1.5 rockers with 3/8 Smith Bros. pushrods
TTI 1 7/8 headers with 3" X cross-over exhaust to the tips
MSD 8546 dist.
MP MSD 6AL
Dana 60 with 3:54

It was dynoed at 491hp/535 torque

Look in the Proven Engine Combo section.

[Challenger340]

440 + .030" over
stock ly Rods, Beamed & Prepped W/ARP Bolts
oem 440 Forged Crankshaft reground .010"/.010"
ICON Forged Flat Top Pistons
Stealth Heads, our "Street Port"/prep pkg (10 hrs)
440 Source 'El Cheapo Chinese Roller Rockers
440 Source cut to fit Pushrods, 3/8", Clrc'ing heads done during Head Prep.
Comp Cams XE284H Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft
16 Johnson Hydraulic Flat Tappet Lifters
ARP Main Studs
Edelbrock Performer rpm dual plane Intake Manifold (Port Matched 3 hrs)
1 7/8" Headers

545 HP and 562 Ft/Lbs pretty much all done by 5,500 rpm

You can go read the entire thread over here on testing of 2 variants of the same std cubic inch 440 builds. It doesn't take TF240's or "Roller" anything.
This Customer has been beating this engine like a red-headed stepchild for many years now and loves it !
NO Valve Adjusting, NO Tuning issues, NO running issues, just fire it.... warm it up.... and GO !

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,106687.50.html

[Challenger340]

Another example, the "basics" :
.030" over 400 Block with 440 Internals = "451"
Stealth Heads (Street Ported / prep 10 hrs)
Ancient Torker 383 Intake Manifold
Comp Cams Solid Flat Tappet XS282S Camshaft

585 hp and 588 Ft/Lbs all done by 5,600 rpm

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,123378.0.html

Just say'in.... IMO
get a hold of any reputable Builder with experience on BB Mopars, Pay HIM to do what he knows best.
Obviously they will do things differently than what I've posted here, and as they should ! based in THEIR own experience.
I've only posted these as examples of what "can" be done by professionals with lesser parts.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Another example, the "basics" :
.030" over 400 Block with 440 Internals = "451"
Stealth Heads (Street Ported / prep 10 hrs)
Ancient Torker 383 Intake Manifold
Comp Cams Solid Flat Tappet XS282S Camshaft

585 hp and 588 Ft/Lbs all done by 5,600 rpm

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,123378.0.html

Just say'in.... IMO
get a hold of any reputable Builder with experience on BB Mopars, Pay HIM to do what he knows best.
Obviously they will do things differently than what I've posted here, and as they should ! based in THEIR own experience.
I've only posted these as examples of what "can" be done by professionals with lesser parts.

Dont cut yourself short, that is an epic, reliable combination, right down to the torker 383 manifold.

[BSB67]

Hate talking HP on forums, such a sketchy discussion - numbers all over the place.  Plus, there is a big difference between 500 and 550 HP on a pump gas stock stroke street car.  Besides, it is about much more than just the parts.   But to answer the question, 500 HP in a mild 440 street car is doable.  Your version of mild will determine how doable.

The basically "stock" motor you have described has only one stock part - the crank. Maybe you mean a budget motor?  

Maybe do a bit of research on your own, get clear on what you want (way more info than hp), get clear on your motor budget, and then a reasonable discussion can be had. Otherwise it will continue to be a circular discussion.

[c00nhunterjoe]

https://youtu.be/HJDnSuITjnQ

[heyoldguy]

Sometimes sorting out engine builds is like rummaging through a gunnysack of cats.

[Harper]

My setup:
440 bored .030=446
KB 237 pistons .003 deck height
Forged crank .010 under
Eagle 4340 H-beam rods
Comp is 10.25:1
Eddy heads 84cc with stage 1 and bowl blend
Straightline Cam 234/242@.050 540/525 solid with 112 lsa (4* built in) installed straight up
6-pack aluminum manifold with stock carbs. (Using ProMax stuff)
Comp pro-magnum 1.5 rockers with 3/8 Smith Bros. pushrods
TTI 1 7/8 headers with 3" X cross-over exhaust to the tips
MSD 8546 dist.
MP MSD 6AL
Dana 60 with 3:54

It was dynoed at 491hp/535 torque

Look in the Proven Engine Combo section.

70sixpkrt, thank you sir !!
____________________________________________

440 + .030" over
stock ly Rods, Beamed & Prepped W/ARP Bolts
oem 440 Forged Crankshaft reground .010"/.010"
ICON Forged Flat Top Pistons
Stealth Heads, our "Street Port"/prep pkg (10 hrs)
440 Source 'El Cheapo Chinese Roller Rockers
440 Source cut to fit Pushrods, 3/8", Clrc'ing heads done during Head Prep.
Comp Cams XE284H Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshaft
16 Johnson Hydraulic Flat Tappet Lifters
ARP Main Studs
Edelbrock Performer rpm dual plane Intake Manifold (Port Matched 3 hrs)
1 7/8" Headers

545 HP and 562 Ft/Lbs pretty much all done by 5,500 rpm

You can go read the entire thread over here on testing of 2 variants of the same std cubic inch 440 builds. It doesn't take TF240's or "Roller" anything.
This Customer has been beating this engine like a red-headed stepchild for many years now and loves it !
NO Valve Adjusting, NO Tuning issues, NO running issues, just fire it.... warm it up.... and GO !

Challenger 340, thanks for your reply. I am digging this set up. i love the part about the red headed step child...that makes it even better when you have seen it proven on a customer who beats on it and it stays together..
____________________________________________
thanks for the replys!

I am learning with every one of them.

the roller cam thing is probably excessive, i just know that those things spin freely, hardly ever wear out and free up horses all the across the RPM range. I learned this from the roller 302's ford had in the mustangs...

[Harper]

Hate talking HP on forums, such a sketchy discussion - numbers all over the place.  Plus, there is a big difference between 500 and 550 HP on a pump gas stock stroke street car.  Besides, it is about much more than just the parts.   But to answer the question, 500 HP in a mild 440 street car is doable.  Your version of mild will determine how doable.

The basically "stock" motor you have described has only one stock part - the crank. Maybe you mean a budget motor?  Yes, exactly I am trying my best to build a reliable combo and i know the stock crank is possibly the weak link.  

Maybe do a bit of research on your own, get clear on what you want (way more info than hp), get clear on your motor budget, and then a reasonable discussion can be had. Otherwise it will continue to be a circular discussion.

agreed. I know keeping the velocity up on a combo pays the best dividends. So that will be part of my plan.  I get so wound up (just like most ppl i guess) wanting to have the biggest cam, biggest valves, biggest intake, biggest carb, biggest headers, biggest exhaust, etc etc  and in reality it just really all needs to MATCH well to be successful in most cases. I am trying to refrain from going to big trust me, the best part about that is it should save me some bucks too to go matched instead of just bigger

[Scaregrabber]

The roller is a good idea no matter what some experts say. I'm sure the experts customers have never lost a camshaft lobe but lots of other guys have and it generally means losing the bearings and crank too. As for buying some Stealth heads and spending another $1000 to make them right, why not buy some right heads to begin with. Buying a used crank for say $200, paying good money to make that crank right, spending money to make the rods right when you can buy a stroker setup for the same price makes no sense to me either. Buying chinese rockers when you can find a used set of indestructible used Iskys or Cranes makes no sense to me as well. However these guys have built lots of good engines and I do agree, too many opinions will cloud the goal.

[Harper]

Scaregrabber,
The roller is a good idea no matter what some experts say. I'm sure the experts customers have never lost a camshaft lobe but lots of other guys have and it generally means losing the bearings and crank too. As for buying some Stealth heads and spending another $1000 to make them right, why not buy some right heads to begin with. Buying a used crank for say $200, paying good money to make that crank right, spending money to make the rods right when you can buy a stroker setup for the same price makes no sense to me either. Buying chinese rockers when you can find a used set of indestructible used Iskys or Cranes makes no sense to me as well. However these guys have built lots of good engines and I do agree, too many opinions will cloud the goal.

The issues with the Stealths with locks, retainers and such pretty much scared me in the the right direct. (buy BARE heads) and have my machine shop build them with all new hardware and do the correct valve job on them in the first place.
I like the edelbrocks but again the locks, retainers and such still cant just be run of the mill stock pieces ( i have heard to many horror stories to trust it of of a box) some may have good luck with em that way straight from Jeggs or Summit. But lord knows I cant afford to REDO it again if it freaks it up...

agreed a good used crank machined correctly is a big plus. Same on the rods. I like the Eagles thats what i used in my 460 ford build a few years back (also ran stock crank with correct machine work, balencing as well) cast if i remember correctly. I never turned it over 6000 very often, but i did not need to. I ran the keith black pistons with that combo, a reed roller cam (customer) i dont know if they are still in business or not either. But that combo was a great running powerful engine. AS a side note, i probably will not turn this combo over 5800 to 6000 k that much either (probably NEVER) i always run a MSD with a chip, shift light, and this will be a mild street car to enjoy. Not out to destroy anything, just have a good runner.

key here is to RESEARCH all i can before buying and buy once and do my best to match it all up.

[BSB67]

Sometimes sorting out engine builds is like rummaging through a gunnysack of cats.

This made me bust a gut.

[BSB67]

The roller is a good idea no matter what some experts say. I'm sure the experts customers have never lost a camshaft lobe but lots of other guys have and it generally means losing the bearings and crank.

Pretty hard for me to wrap my head around the words "budget build" and "roller cam" in the same discussion.   Budget roller lifters are not without risk and the carnage they can create is generally far worse than with a FT cam.  

[c00nhunterjoe]

The roller is a good idea no matter what some experts say. I'm sure the experts customers have never lost a camshaft lobe but lots of other guys have and it generally means losing the bearings and crank.

Pretty hard for me to wrap my head around the words "budget build" and "roller cam" in the same discussion.   Budget roller lifters are not without risk and the carnage they can create is generally far worse than with a FT cam.  

X2. A GOOD and QUALITY roller lifters set for a big block chrysler will cost you about a grand......

[Harper]

X2. A GOOD and QUALITY roller lifters set for a big block chrysler will cost you about a grand......

i can tell ya, i will NEVER spend a grand on a set of lifters for a street car. I will go $700 for a pair  (cam and lifters), but that is probably going to be my limit.

Pretty hard for me to wrap my head around the words "budget build" and "roller cam" in the same discussion.   Budget roller lifters are not without risk and the carnage they can create is generally far worse than with a FT cam.

if i can afford it in any future engine build I will go roller. I know ppl have ran flat tappet cams for a very long time and with much success. I just personally like the roller cam/lifters.
oh i wont skimp on budget roller lifters. (is there such a thing?).

here is a good article i just read from hot rod (they put 10,000 miles on a roller cam/lifter motor, and had great success with it.
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/mopp-0511-flat-tappet-roller-swap/

[firefighter3931]

Quality roller lifters aren't cheap. I have a set of the Isky's in my stroker. These were approx. $1100 at the time we built this motor...and they're even more expensive now. 

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/isk-3772lo180ezx/overview/make/dodge

Low speed operation (idleing) is hard on roller lifter bearings so you want descent parts for something that will see some street miles. 


Ron

[Harper]

Low speed operation (idleing) is hard on roller lifter bearings so you want descent parts for something that will see some street miles.

never thought of this, thanks for mentioning.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Low rpm means less oil pressure

[Harper]

i still say i would rather have a roller bearing with less oil than just dragging a flat tappet lifter across the cam (same low engine rpm) just my 

[c00nhunterjoe]

i still say i would rather have a roller bearing with less oil than just dragging a flat tappet lifter across the cam (same low engine rpm) just my 

1000 dollars vs 100 dollars for a set of lifters on a 550hp build is nonsense... spend the extra 900 dollars on portwork on the same build and bump it over 600 hp with the same reliability.

[Harper]

yea but i am talking about a lunati kit for $600 bucks ROLLER vs Flat Tappet with cam and lifters $300 bucks, so not really putting out that much. This car wont be getting more than 15k maybe 20k miles a year.

[Harper]

ok big dog coonhuting man,

You have been on my ass since i came on this board, obviously you know what your talking about, so here is what i will do... I will run "your" described combo, Hit me with what ya got. The most reasonable, best bang for the buck, carb to oil pan. I will buy part of it New, part of it used (intake, oil pan, valve covers)
Mind you if i wipe a lifter I am gonna call for your credit card lol

what do you think about this kit from COMP Cams Part K31-601-5

what grind? what lobe separation? I am not a big believer in a .800 lift cam, I am more of a .580 or so lift, something if i wanted to add a little shot of nitrous to i could (you know i cant have some LS motored punk putting me down in from of my friends ya know lol

[c00nhunterjoe]

I ride you so hopefully it sinks in and you wont waste your money and have to do it twice. None of the engine builxers on this forum can give you a "build" at this point. But, if you want a good basic 440 that makes great reliable power, it has already been reccomended by ron (firefighter). The basic 440 bottom end with a 0 deck height piston, stealth or eddy heads with basic port job, xs282 cam, performer rpm intake, comp steel rockers, 6 qt hemi oil pan, 850 cfm carb.

[Harper]

I ride you so hopefully it sinks in and you wont waste your money and have to do it twice. None of the engine builders on this forum can give you a "build" at this point. But, if you want a good basic 440 that makes great reliable power, it has already been recommended by ron (firefighter). The basic 440 bottom end with a 0 deck height piston, stealth or eddy heads with basic port job, xs282 cam, performer rpm intake, comp steel rockers, 6 qt hemi oil pan, 850 cfm carb.

lol
i know this and i have learned that. I appreciate your patience with me for i am hard headed lol

I am going to follow that recommendation.
the zero deck height i feel like is a given.
i like the edelbrock heads more so i will probably go with those.
xs282 cam i will research.
I will start looking for a stock used performer RPM intake, (to hopefully save a couple bucks)
also the oil pan, and rockers i will start getting my stuff together for it.

[Brass]

If you're worried about wiping a flat tappet lobe, you could consider having the cam nitrided for added durability.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Piston choice is key for a near 0 deck height. Again, do not choose a piston by the advertised compression, it will be wrong. Read the sticky thread about pistons. Also, dont pick a compression ratjo and then a cam, as your dynamic compression ratio is directly effected by your static vs cam profile.

[Harper]

If you're worried about wiping a flat tappet lobe, you could consider having the cam nitrided for added durability.

i bet thats not cheap, i actually had no idea you could do that. thanks for a suggestion.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Depending on the cam manufacture,  usually about 100 bucks extra.

[Challenger340]

The roller is a good idea no matter what some experts say. I'm sure the experts customers have never lost a camshaft lobe but lots of other guys have and it generally means losing the bearings and crank too. As for buying some Stealth heads and spending another $1000 to make them right, why not buy some right heads to begin with. Buying a used crank for say $200, paying good money to make that crank right, spending money to make the rods right when you can buy a stroker setup for the same price makes no sense to me either. Buying chinese rockers when you can find a used set of indestructible used Iskys or Cranes makes no sense to me as well. However these guys have built lots of good engines and I do agree, too many opinions will cloud the goal.

When talking the cheaper Stroker Kits:
* Buying a Stroker Kit is NO guarantee you won't end up spending TONS having it re-machined depending upon WHO is checking it ? and WHAT their criterion is based in their experience ?  Sh*t will run... no doubt about that.... but NOT with my name on it !
* We Re-Size every Rod, in every Stroker Kit we see, and we see LOTS !
* We have to re-balance pretty much every Kit as well, very simply... they are NOT within our specs. (Again sh*t will run, but not around here)
* Valvetrain Geometry is what kills Rockers. As long as the metallurgy meets the tensile for what WE are doing, we have experienced NO problems.
You can take the BEST, most EXPENSIVE Rockers made.... and destroy them within a very short timeframe with poor geometry.
Conversely,
You can take the cheapest although "adequate" for the load Rocker Arm, and with good setup geometry it can give many years good service.