Pitman arm and alingment questions

[Canadian1968]

I just pulled out my steering box and sent it off for a rebuild . IT was leaking from around worm gear and appeared to be leaking around the top cap that has the adjusting nut on it. I was also getting a pretty decent shimmy in the steering wheel at higher speeds (70k - 100k ) . Any way got the gear box back and installed .
PRroblem 1 . DAMN thing is leaking from top cap again. I think the large nut just needs to be tightened i bit more. Going to call builder on monday

PROBLEM 2. I was bleeding the system turing lock to lock. IT goes to the right fine but when i try to lock to the left i actually hit the frame rail before it locks out ? Tire diam. Is 26" so that should not be a problem. When i crank the wheel all the way back to right and check clearance i have a good 1/4" to the rail. I matched up all the master spline marks when i put the column back in and the pitman arm goes on in 1/4 turn incraments to line up its splines , so i would be way off if that was incorrect. I was never realy to sure about the alignment i got in the spring when i got the car back on the road. I notice that the tie rods is turned all the way in on the inner and outter which would pull the wheel all the way in at the back. Wondering if this is my probkem..... they just plain messed up my alignment .

Problem 3. Maybe not a problem. When inspecting everything i noticed that with pitman arm on i can see about 1/2"  of the gear splines before housing of the box itself. Looking threw the manual the pictures i can find, show the same thing. The arm is Torque to spec.  If it was all the way up flush with housing, u would never be able to get an arm puller on it ?

Biggest problem is the frame rail contact on left side  !

[green69rt]

Not sure I'm reading your description right but here's some thoughts.  You say the splice marks are lined up.  When I put my new steering box in I set the steering wheel dead center, the wheels straight ahead and then on the input shaft of the box, one of the spline teeth is missing.  That missing tooth needs to be straight up.  As for the splines showing on the output shaft, mine shows about 1/2" also.  As for the tie rods being turned all the way in (shortest length?)  that sounds just wrong.  Got some pics?

[Canadian1968]

yes everything you said about the spokes is what I have / did .   I will try and snap a pic tonight

[BLK 68 R/T]

Are the tie rods screwed all the way in on both sides of the car? I don't know how they would set the toe properly if they are? If it's just one side screwed all the way in then that would affect your turning radius, and could cause the tire to rub on the frame rail.

[Canadian1968]

here are couple pics I snapped of the left and right tie rods

[green69rt]

From the pics, it looks like the driver side ends are screwed all the way in.  Some threads showing on the pass side.  Screwy alignment settings!  I think it would tend to make the toe in really negative (  ) giving you toe "out".  That might explain the front end shimmy while driving.   I would take the car to a shop, get it up on a rack and inspect everything, then have a new alignment done (somewhere else than the previous shop.)  Some shops just don't know how to handle these old cars.

[70 sublime]

The steering gear box only has so much travel in each direction
With the lower control arms set the way they are your car might go straight but there is only so much travel each way and the way they are set now more travel is already used up on one side compared to the other
That is why lock to lock one side touched frame rail and one side does not

If it was my car I would just jack it up and turn the side with the long threads in one turn and the short side out one turn at a time till there is close to same amount of threads showing on both sides of the car

[HPP]

Looks like a classic "toe and go" alignment from a tech not willing to put the time in to do it correctly.  They did this to get the steering wheel straight up and keep the toe within spec. Doing so pulled the steering box too far to one side, thus creating too much travel on one side and not enough on the other, hence your tire hitting the frame rail.

Both tie rods should be equal length. Both should be adjusted to set toe. Steering wheel and steering shaft, if assembled and installed correctly in a car without any prior damage, should all be heading the correct direction once the tie rods are equalized and proper toe set.

[JR]

This is a big reason why I spent a couple hundred bucks on alignment tools earlier this year and learned to do my own alignments.

I swear the average alignment tech is completely useless. Even for modern cars.

It took me a week or so of reading and experimenting with the tools to learn, but it's easy and I never have to pay for a crappy alignment job again.

It would be worth it to learn to not have headaches like this in the future.

[Canadian1968]

well update. I have to take the damn steering box out again to have it fixed.....again ! Good thing ita just about winter here !
There is a guy here in the city that had a good reputation with mopars. I will be taking it to him once everything is back together again. I should have just taken it to him in the first place.

I would love to do my own alignment but car justify buying tools to use once probaby !

[green69rt]

well update. I have to take the damn steering box out again to have it fixed.....again ! Good thing ita just about winter here !
There is a guy here in the city that had a good reputation with mopars. I will be taking it to him once everything is back together again. I should have just taken it to him in the first place.

I would love to do my own alignment but car justify buying tools to use once probaby !

Wait, you have to have the unit reworked?  What's going on?? Still leaking?

[Bronzedodge]

This is a big reason why I spent a couple hundred bucks on alignment tools earlier this year and learned to do my own alignments.

I swear the average alignment tech is completely useless. Even for modern cars.

Not to hijack the thread, but what did you buy, JR?

[c00nhunterjoe]

This is a big reason why I spent a couple hundred bucks on alignment tools earlier this year and learned to do my own alignments.

I swear the average alignment tech is completely useless. Even for modern cars.

Not to hijack the thread, but what did you buy, JR?

Just bring it to me. 99.95, will have it set up correctly in an hour.

[green69rt]

Here's a DIY thread.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,117561.0/topicseen.html

[Canadian1968]

Yes I called the rebuilder and he said it needs to come out of the car again to fix the seal that is leaking.  I try not to make a big fuss out of these situations . My time is spent better in other ways. The guy was very understandable and will be picking the piece up once and I have it out and delivering it back to me .   Mistakes happen ,  the guy said they test the boxes to 1000psi. I thought I read somewhere that our pumps run something g stupid like 3000? Hence why a breeze threw the window can send our 3800lbs cars steering wheel to turn us into the ditch

[JR]

Not to hijack the thread, but what did you buy, JR?

I bought the longacre caster/camber tool:


(Another member here told me about a similar gauge made by Tenhulzen Automotive, which I believe uses a superior method of securing to the tire. It doesn't touch the wheel lip like mine does, I would strongly consider this one if you're thinking about buying one.)

https://m.ebay.com/itm/Hands-Free-Digital-Camber-Caster-Gauge-accurate-to-within-0-1-degrees/281369064558?_mwBanner=1

And a set of  longacre toe plates, like these:



You can also pick up a bar that's less cumbersome to work with for toe instead of the plates:



(Those are better if you have big, bulgy sidewalls.)

I made my own turn plates from scrap hardwood floor pieces.

A trip to the alignment shop takes a couple of hours, and a hundred bucks or so. I'd rather spend the hour myself and know it's done correctly. The time and aggravation spent going back to have poor work redone is what finally made me learn it.

I understand not everyone is interested in learning it, but it's worthwhile if you're going to keep playing with hot rods or race cars.

Sorry for the thread hijack, good luck with the rebuild Canadia1968.

[Canadian1968]

it's all information!!  thanks will look at those myself !

[c00nhunterjoe]

There are alot of angles that cannot be measured with the plywood backyard setup. I would not reccomend that for a racecar as stated. Do you know how many adjustment points there are on the race cars? Its not just a simple camber eccentric and toe buckle...i would also not be taking my high end muscle car or race car to the local jiffylube for a chassis setup. I take pride in my work. If its not right, its not done.

[JR]

There are alot of angles that cannot be measured with the plywood backyard setup. I would not reccomend that for a racecar as stated. Do you know how many adjustment points there are on the race cars? Its not just a simple camber eccentric and toe buckle...i would also not be taking my high end muscle car or race car to the local jiffylube for a chassis setup. I take pride in my work. If its not right, its not done.

I was referring to production chassis based cars, not tubed frame purpose built ones. Which seems to be what most members here have. Anyone who has invested the coin in a tube chassis track car likely already knows how to set up one.

The large majority of members here have stock front ends on their cars, with nothing to adjust but caster/camber/toe. I guarantee you I do a superior alignment with my "backyard" setup than the careless tech using a 100k machine, making 12 bucks an hour who's likely never touched a vintage car before.

I use this same setup on an M3 that sees frequent roadcourse use, with constant camber adjustments and bushing replacements and it works great. As do plenty of others I frequent the road courses with.

A stock B body that sees mostly street or drag strip use (which is 99% of members here) could be adjusted just fine with this system.

I value the quality of my alignments too, that's why I do my own.

Agree to disagree.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Not to hijack the thread, but what did you buy, JR?

I made my own turn plates from scrap hardwood floor pieces.

A trip to the alignment shop takes a couple of hours, and a hundred bucks or so. I'd rather spend the hour myself and know it's done correctly. The time and aggravation spent going back to have poor work redone is what finally made me learn it.

I understand not everyone is interested in learning it, but it's worthwhile if you're going to keep playing with hot rods or race cars.

Sorry for the thread hijack, good luck with the rebuild Canadia1968.

Yes, you clearly called out and specifically said hotrods and race cars.  Nothing about production vehicles or stock front ends was mentioned in your statement. And i already stated that taking any vehicle to a nutjob making 12 bucks an hour was a mistake, let alone a vintage car.
   As for the race car crowd doing their own chassis setup, which is nowhere near a front end alignment... no, you cannot do that on a plywood turntable with a tape measure properly. On a fresh build, it can take several hours which a machine to get it right. You dont take chances when your car is looking at the sky through the 60' and trapping at 160+ mph.
   There is nothing to agree to disagree with you on here.

[JR]

I was referring to the context of this site, where most cars here have stock front ends, the drag cars included. Plenty of race series use stock chassis's and front ends. Which is what I was referring to. I assumed that was implied, I also assume you're being pedantic.

Also, you've never taken your car to a shop you thought would do quality work, only to find out they pawned your car off on the new kid to do? Or that the tech you trusted did a poor job?

You're a lucky man.

I use my own alignents at several road courses with 140mph plus straights, I understand the importance of safety on a track. I trust my own work over the last few supposedly quality shops I've used.

If you want to encourage members to keep blowing a hundred plus dollars a pop for a simple front end alignment, have at it.

I'll never understand how most car guys wouldn't hesitate to pull an engine and rebuild it in their garage, or cut out and replace rusty frame rails, but when it comes to simple front end alignments, suddenly it's rocket science and only the best shop will do.

[XH29N0G]

I appreciate all of this frank discussion and the different points about different needs for different set ups. The basic information which apply to me as well as the clarifications that are made about some systems being more complicated are all part of this. Discussions like these let me know what I can hope to do and what I clearly will not know because other set ups can be way more complicated.  So thanks both. 

I plan to go the way of learning to adjust my stock suspension, and also for my son to work with on his 81 518i.  As anyone on here who has read my other posts knows, I am a sunny day (weekend) tinkerer rather than a mechanic who fixes slightly more than they break.  Sometimes, the modifications make things better, but they almost always bring satisfaction with the car. 

For what its worth, the discussion also makes me appreciate what my son meant yesterday, when he told me that the alignment on the Formula SAE car he is working on in college is different.

[garner7555]

I like the look of the Quick Trick alignment tools.   They are based right here in Alabama, my home state.  What are your thoughts?

https://www.quicktrickalignment.com/

[c00nhunterjoe]

I was referring to the context of this site, where most cars here have stock front ends, the drag cars included. Plenty of race series use stock chassis's and front ends. Which is what I was referring to. I assumed that was implied, I also assume you're being pedantic.

Also, you've never taken your car to a shop you thought would do quality work, only to find out they pawned your car off on the new kid to do? Or that the tech you trusted did a poor job?

You're a lucky man.

I use my own alignents at several road courses with 140mph plus straights, I understand the importance of safety on a track. I trust my own work over the last few supposedly quality shops I've used.

If you want to encourage members to keep blowing a hundred plus dollars a pop for a simple front end alignment, have at it.

I'll never understand how most car guys wouldn't hesitate to pull an engine and rebuild it in their garage, or cut out and replace rusty frame rails, but when it comes to simple front end alignments, suddenly it's rocket science and only the best shop will do.

Pedantic? Not hardly. Im speaking from real world experience. Assumption when on a forum will do nothing but get you into trouble. It happens on here all the time with people misunderstanding and assuming vague replies. Why are you blowing hundreds of dollars on front end alignments? Should only have to do it 1 time. And when it came to my vehicles BEFORE i had my own equipment, i left them nowhere, i waited with the cars, i researched before i went to a shop. Jiffylube and walmarts, mr tire, etc would NEVER touch my vehicles.
   As to pedantics on alignments- one could setup a b body mopar in about 15 minutes with a tape measure if you want to get technical. Push the front eccentrics max outward, measure rim lip to frame top and bottom, simple math for your camber angle using rear eccentric. No need to measure caster with stock or even offset bushings using this method. Then center the wheel and set toe with tape measure. Done. No plates or gauges needed and cost is only that of a 20' tape measure, and 2 wrenches.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Jr, i would also like to clarify that i 100% agree with you that a solid 80% of alignment guys out there.... well, the flat out suck. And those 100k machines they are using are what does the work. The kid running them has absolutly no idea what he is doing. Those new machines literaly tell the guy what bolt to turn and  in what direction until the light turns green. A good shop is hard to find anymore. Thats why i always say do your research. Find out who your fellow car guys go to. Good shops are still out there. In your case, homegrown alignments work, and thats great. Sounds like you were like me, disgusted with the lack of quality out there. But driveway alignments are not something i would suggest for everyone.

[green69rt]

I just had to look up "pedantic".  Another 3 syllable word that I can use with precision (but probably not.)   

[HPP]

There are alot of angles that cannot be measured with the plywood backyard setup. I would not reccomend that for a racecar as stated. Do you know how many adjustment points there are on the race cars? Its not just a simple camber eccentric and toe buckle...i would also not be taking my high end muscle car or race car to the local jiffylube for a chassis setup. I take pride in my work. If its not right, its not done.

Until this came up, I don't think anyone was referring to race cars, although it quickly degraded after that. The question was about a street car being used for cruising. No one was asking about  measuring the various angles associated with a front suspension. It was a simple request of  whats wrong, how do I fix it.

   As to pedantics on alignments- one could setup a b body mopar in about 15 minutes with a tape measure if you want to get technical. Push the front eccentrics max outward, measure rim lip to frame top and bottom, simple math for your camber angle using rear eccentric. No need to measure caster with stock or even offset bushings using this method. Then center the wheel and set toe with tape measure. Done. No plates or gauges needed and cost is only that of a 20' tape measure, and 2 wrenches.

Based on this then, the original premise that it can be easily done at home with some basic tools and research is validated by you. So then why the diversion into race cars, angles, etc?

Dude, you know a lot of stuff, and you share good info, but you don't always have to be so condescending to others to get it out there. Share the info, provide detail when asked. No need to jump on people for sharing  their opinions.

[c00nhunterjoe]

There are alot of angles that cannot be measured with the plywood backyard setup. I would not reccomend that for a racecar as stated. Do you know how many adjustment points there are on the race cars? Its not just a simple camber eccentric and toe buckle...i would also not be taking my high end muscle car or race car to the local jiffylube for a chassis setup. I take pride in my work. If its not right, its not done.

Until this came up, I don't think anyone was referring to race cars, although it quickly degraded after that. The question was about a street car being used for cruising. No one was asking about  measuring the various angles associated with a front suspension. It was a simple request of  whats wrong, how do I fix it.

   As to pedantics on alignments- one could setup a b body mopar in about 15 minutes with a tape measure if you want to get technical. Push the front eccentrics max outward, measure rim lip to frame top and bottom, simple math for your camber angle using rear eccentric. No need to measure caster with stock or even offset bushings using this method. Then center the wheel and set toe with tape measure. Done. No plates or gauges needed and cost is only that of a 20' tape measure, and 2 wrenches.

Based on this then, the original premise that it can be easily done at home with some basic tools and research is validated by you. So then why the diversion into race cars, angles, etc?

Dude, you know a lot of stuff, and you share good info, but you don't always have to be so condescending to others to get it out there. Share the info, provide detail when asked. No need to jump on people for sharing  their opinions.

Before you jump on my case and only quote me, race car alignments in driveways were brought up by jr, not me. And while yes, it is possible to do it with a tape measure ON ANY CAR, I clearly said i dont reccomend it. When you make the post that anyone can do their front end alignments in your driveway, im not going to sit back and be quiet. Thats how people screw up and get killed when things go wrong.

[JR]

I like the look of the Quick Trick alignment tools.   They are based right here in Alabama, my home state.  What are your thoughts?

https://www.quicktrickalignment.com/

I had never seen that system before, but I like it alot based on those videos and a look around the website. Those turnplates look like quality pieces, and it would save a good amount of time having the measuring tapes attach to the camber gauge instead of having two separate tools like I have. That's a really nice kit. I will consider that kit in the future myself!



And Coonhunter, I'll try to get to as many of your points as I remember them.

Why did I blow hundreds of dollars on crap alignments in the past, and why should anyone invest in the tools and learn how to do it? Easy.

Replace worn out control arm bushings or tie rod ends? Now you need to spend another 100 bucks at a shop.

Buy a "new" used project car and find out its wearing tires? 100 bucks.

Want to raise/lower the front of your car via the torsion bars? Another 100 bucks.

Want to change alignment settings for street or autocross use? Another 100 bucks. (i do this frequently. For autocross, I add toe out and a bunch of negative camber, then convert back to normal street settings after the event. I change the setup for road course use on my other car depending on the track also. Saves 200 bucks per event.)

Changing from polyglass tires to radials? Those are different alignment settings, so another 100 bucks.

Just finish the restoration of your Charger and need to align it? Another hundred bucks.

Your wife hit a pothole in her car and bend a tie rod? Thats another hundred bucks.

I'm not blindly saying everyone with no mechanical aptitude should buy an alignment kit and go to town, but I am saying if you're comfortable turning wrenches, and otherwise do your own work to your cars, there's no reason why you cant learn alignments yourself. And most likely, the guys who aren't comfortable turning wrenches aren't considering buying the tools in the first place. Which is fine. Not everyone likes to wrench.

Of course safety is paramount above all else, but this site is full of guys who can remove old drum brakes and piece their own disc brake kits together, cut out rusty floor pans or bent frame rails and replace them, and reassemble a car from a stripped shell in their home garage. I dont think those same guys will get careless and sloppy at this part of the car if they are capable of all the others. Those are the guys I'm talking to. Not to mention, those jobs are just as important as this one.

I just wish someone had told me this earlier, which is why I shared that information. It would have saved me a LOT of headache and frustration over the years. Front end alignments aren't voo-doo, they are simple. Especially for anyone who's comfortable wrenching on their own car. Just avoiding crap quality alignments like in the original post of this thread alone makes it worth it.

[c00nhunterjoe]

While i said in your case it works out great for you, but as i was so blatently called out, we are not talking about autocross or race cars, this is just a street car. In the case of the topic poster, i dont think he is up for doing his own alignments. Not to talk down on him, but if you are not resealing your own power steering boxes and pumps, you probably shouldnt tackle alignments either. Which is why i suggested asking around and finding a reputable shop that will do it right the 1st time.
  And how often are you wearing out tierods and control arm bushings to justify your arguements of always having to get your cars realigned? How high and low are we cranking those torsion bars up and down?  STREET car remember. Oh, and if my wife plasters a pothole big enough the mangle the steering on my charger, then she probably blew a tire and cracked a wheel as well and will no longer be driving it....
   So, i guess in conclusion, if you are at the level of backyard mechanic that you are rebuilding your own transmissions and rears, etc. then sure, go ahead and dabble into alignments. No, its not rocket science. But you yourself said that alot of the "professionals" are morons- and i agree with that.

[JR]

I think that's as much as we're going to agree on, I'll leave it there.

It's unfortunate there are so many bad shops that can cause classic car ownership to be a hassle. The root of many persistent problems with many cars on this board is a shop that did poor work.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I think that's as much as we're going to agree on, I'll leave it there.

It's unfortunate there are so many bad shops that can cause classic car ownership to be a hassle. The root of many persistent problems with many cars on this board is a shop that did poor work.

Its not just classic cars. Its the entire market. I get butchered vehicles in at least once a week from another shop... its sad.

[Canadian1968]

So............... I got my steering box back again ! And installed it, again ! No more leaks !

Next is to look at the alignment . I have been doing a lot of reading and will see what I can figure out in my garage with some string and a camber gauge ! Will keep updated

[c00nhunterjoe]

  sorry for the banter back and forth on your topic.