Illegal Immigration!

[Old Moparz]

We should just devalue the dollar a few cents more & it won't pay to come into this country. China might start to look like the green grass over the hill.   


(And since I'm from NYC)

As for building a Mosque, or a Muslim community center, near the World Trade Center site, I don't see anything wrong with it at all. Being against it & protesting about it is no different than rallying people who have had a relative killed in a concentration camp during WW2 & deciding that anyone of German decent should never be allowed to become a doctor in case they felt a sudden urge to experiment on a patient instead of saving their life.

[Ponch ®]

We should just devalue the dollar a few cents more & it won't pay to come into this country. China might start to look like the green grass over the hill.   


(And since I'm from NYC)

As for building a Mosque, or a Muslim community center, near the World Trade Center site, I don't see anything wrong with it at all. Being against it & protesting about it is no different than rallying people who have had a relative killed in a concentration camp during WW2 & deciding that anyone of German decent should never be allowed to become a doctor in case they felt a sudden urge to experiment on a patient instead of saving their life.

you know, I don't think it's necessarily "wrong" either (and they're certainly entitled to build whatever they want where they want as long as it's all done legally), but I think if they're really trying to "build a bridge" between Muslims and non-Muslims, they should rethink this because all it's doing is pissing people off and creating more anti-muslim sentiment. You know, the old "Just because you can doesn't mean you should" adage. A better analogy would be if someone decided to build a Nazi museum (not pro Nazi or anti Nazi...just a historical type museum) right next to a synagogue or a war memorial to WWII German soldiers in Dachau. 

[Mike DC]

I basically agree. 

They've technically got the right to build a mosque on that site.  But I don't believe noble intentions have anything to do with it.   

[Ponch ®]

Here's a chart of the Legal Immigration Process. Best case scenario: 6-7 year wait.

[Old Moparz]

We should just devalue the dollar a few cents more & it won't pay to come into this country. China might start to look like the green grass over the hill.   


(And since I'm from NYC)

As for building a Mosque, or a Muslim community center, near the World Trade Center site, I don't see anything wrong with it at all. Being against it & protesting about it is no different than rallying people who have had a relative killed in a concentration camp during WW2 & deciding that anyone of German decent should never be allowed to become a doctor in case they felt a sudden urge to experiment on a patient instead of saving their life.

you know, I don't think it's necessarily "wrong" either (and they're certainly entitled to build whatever they want where they want as long as it's all done legally), but I think if they're really trying to "build a bridge" between Muslims and non-Muslims, they should rethink this because all it's doing is pissing people off and creating more anti-muslim sentiment. You know, the old "Just because you can doesn't mean you should" adage. A better analogy would be if someone decided to build a Nazi museum (not pro Nazi or anti Nazi...just a historical type museum) right next to a synagogue or a war memorial to WWII German soldiers in Dachau. 

You're right, that might be a better analogy, but my point was only to say that I think it's pathetic to assume an entire culture/religion/race/whatever, is evil because of a minority within that group.

At the last company I worked at, a civil engineering firm, there was an engineer there who was originally from Iran. He's Muslim, has darker skin, spoke with an accent, & had faithfully practiced his religion. He had married a woman from Bogota, Columbia, owned his house, had 2 kids, was also one of the nicest people to work with. I would have liked to have worked directly with him more often than the "Caucasian" A-hole I usually had been stuck working with.

Our company at that time had a contract with the Port Authority of NY/NJ to inspect the bridges & tunnels, including the Lincoln Tunnel. Right after the truck bomb incident in the World Trade Center parking garage happened, guess what happened to the Muslim engineer/inspector at the Lincoln Tunnel? The same guy I had known for years who was a good person was detained for the entire day & questioned. Was that fair? No. Was he angry? Yes, but he also understood the reasoning behind it & didn't hold a grudge over it.

[Ponch ®]

You're right, that might be a better analogy, but my point was only to say that I think it's pathetic to assume an entire culture/religion/race/whatever, is evil because of a minority within that group.

Absolutely...but knowing how most Americans feel about 9/11 and the WTC site, do they realize that what they want to do is basically a big "F you" to everybody and does nothing to fix the perception that people have of Islamic culture?

[Old Moparz]

You're right, that might be a better analogy, but my point was only to say that I think it's pathetic to assume an entire culture/religion/race/whatever, is evil because of a minority within that group.

Absolutely...but knowing how most Americans feel about 9/11 and the WTC site, do they realize that what they want to do is basically a big "F you" to everybody and does nothing to fix the perception that people have of Islamic culture?

I don't actually see it that way, but then again, I have my own thoughts. I'm also not so sure that "most Americans" feel it's a bad idea, just the ones making the most noise are the ones that have been heard. I could be completely wrong too, but I won't lose sleep over it.

[RD]

Here's a chart of the Legal Immigration Process. Best case scenario: 6-7 year wait.

6-7 year wait does not give them a right to become illegals.  it just tells me that they don't have the patience, the integrity, or the virtue to do it correctly.  They would rather give a big F you to the U.S. system, circumvent it, and then not contribute by the way of not paying income taxes like legal working citizens do, but at the same time bitch if they dont get their rights protected (i have seen the many videos posted on this site and youtube where illegal and illegal sympathizers show their true nature regarding the laws of the U.S. by being belligerent and disrespectful... remember the mexican flag being hung above the U.S. flag?)

If we're still talking about the citizenship issue...since when is having a kid or being born against the law? The parents may have broken the laws in crossing the border illegally, but it's not the kid's fault. Having an "anchor" baby may be morally questionable or wrong, just like it's not illegal to build a mosque near Ground Zero, but it's insensitive and in bad taste. it doesn't mean we're gonna run and change the law to make it illegal.

i have never said have a kid or being born is against the law, quite the contrary, at this point it is not against the law.  I am saying that it SHOULD be against the law for children who are born in the U.S., whose parents are illegal immigrants, to be given citizenship of the U.S.  I am not blaming the children, I am blaming the parents.  I have never blamed the children at all, just blatantly disagreed with how they obtained citizenship.

[Ponch ®]

6-7 year wait does not give them a right to become illegals.  it just tells me that they don't have the patience, the integrity, or the virtue to do it correctly.  They would rather give a big F you to the U.S. system, circumvent it, and then not contribute by the way of not paying income taxes like legal working citizens do, but at the same time bitch if they dont get their rights protected (i have seen the many videos posted on this site and youtube where illegal and illegal sympathizers show their true nature regarding the laws of the U.S. by being belligerent and disrespectful... remember the mexican flag being hung above the U.S. flag?)

No, it doesn't. But you're missing the point. Most people that come here aren't doing it out of leisure or due to some contrived life plan. They come here looking for jobs and for better opportunities, so if they can't get here legally, they can't or won't wait years or decades. Im not defending them or rationalizing their actions, but that's just how it is. And that's why maybe we need to look at making the process of coming here legally less ponderous.

i have never said have a kid or being born is against the law, quite the contrary, at this point it is not against the law.  I am saying that it SHOULD be against the law for children who are born in the U.S., whose parents are illegal immigrants, to be given citizenship of the U.S.  I am not blaming the children, I am blaming the parents.  I have never blamed the children at all, just blatantly disagreed with how they obtained citizenship.

But you still want to punish the kid for what the parents did. Besides, taking away citizenship from those kids is barely going to make a dent in the problem of illegal immigration. Despite the current furor and fear mongering by the media and the politicians, most illegals don't come here JUST to have their kids here. They're looking for jobs.  In fact, it's mostly males that come here by themselves and leave the wives and families behind. So it's not really that huge an incentive for them to come here. So even if this happened, it wouldn't do much to stem the problem.

[Mike DC]

No, it doesn't. But you're missing the point. Most people that come here aren't doing it out of leisure or due to some contrived life plan. They come here looking for jobs and for better opportunities, so if they can't get here legally, they can't or won't wait years or decades. Im not defending them or rationalizing their actions, but that's just how it is. And that's why maybe we need to look at making the process of coming here legally less ponderous.

Agreed.  

Expedite the legal immigration process + clamp down on the borders + clamp down on the illegal job industry = the vast majority of the problem stops growing.  

America was historically an easy place to (legally) immigrate to.  It just got more difficult within the last lifetime.  Making the legal process easier now would just be a return to our historical norm.

[69bronzeT5]

On this topic, some of you may find this link interesting. I've been watching the news lately and there is a boat full of Sri Lankan 'refugees' that wants to come to Victoria B.C. The boat has been giving different numbers when it comes to the amount of people and sex of the people. The Canadian Coast Guard has been keeping track of the boat and was waiting for it to dock in Victoria but they boarded it when it changed course and tried to dock in Port Alberni. Apperentley there are suspected terrorists and human smugglers on board....

http://www.globaltvbc.com/health/Canadians+board+Tamil+migrant+ship+coast/3390860/story.html

[RD]

No, it doesn't. But you're missing the point. Most people that come here aren't doing it out of leisure or due to some contrived life plan. They come here looking for jobs and for better opportunities, so if they can't get here legally, they can't or won't wait years or decades. Im not defending them or rationalizing their actions, but that's just how it is. And that's why maybe we need to look at making the process of coming here legally less ponderous.

I am not missing the point. I understand why they do it, but I don't care.  I just want it stopped.  Whatever rationalization they come up with does not make their actions RIGHT.

So because our immigration policy is tough and these people are coming here illegally, we should lower the standards for those to come in just because we cannot stop them from coming in.  That is BS.. sorry.  We should not have to lower our standards or make the process easier to address an issue that is just blatantly wrong and illegal.  

I am sorry man, but the system is the way it is for a reason, if they don't meet the muster when it comes to citizenship... there is a reason for it.  We do not need a huge rush of people from the south who do not have any skills, will have a higher health care need just because where they are coming from does not have good health care, will arrive in this country with nothing and lean on the social services system in some way or form to get started (or worse never leave, not saying it will happen, but it may And we got enough of these people already), and lastly, bring the problems of mexico with them.  Their problems down there will pursue them here.  If they are running from a corrupt system, those that are corrupt will follow and their corruption (which is already apparent in the U.S.) will get even worse.

But you still want to punish the kid for what the parents did. Besides, taking away citizenship from those kids is barely going to make a dent in the problem of illegal immigration. Despite the current furor and fear mongering by the media and the politicians, most illegals don't come here JUST to have their kids here. They're looking for jobs.  In fact, it's mostly males that come here by themselves and leave the wives and families behind. So it's not really that huge an incentive for them to come here. So even if this happened, it wouldn't do much to stem the problem.

one less illegal immigrant anchor baby is a start.  the more the better.  Why in the heck am I the terrible person because I am telling/asking LAWBREAKERS to not cross into my border to have their children?  How in the heck am I punishing their child?  Because I am denying them a citizenship that is not rightfully theirs due to an illegal action by their parents (that I believe and if I can get my representatives to buy off on it, change the 14th amendment to reflect) ?  Seriously, the fact that I am indirectly being labeled a "punisher" because the kid's parents should have never been here in the first place is simply ludicrous and asinine.

It would be like me telling you don't leave your garage open, or I will walk into your house and sit on your couch.  Is it your fault I sat on  your couch and hung out? No, because I should have never had access to your garage in the first place.  I am not the punisher or enforcer, I should not have to be.  The parents should not be in the U.S. to begin with.  If anyone is punishing their children, it is them, not me.

[RD]

Agreed. 

Enforce the legal immigration process + clamp down on the borders + clamp down on the illegal job industry = the vast majority of the problem stops growing. 

my solution, a change to yours mike.

[Mike DC]

The existing immigration policy allows very little legal immigration.  

Maybe that's what you prefer.  Whatever, I guess that's more of a policy decision than a border control decision.  


----------------------------------------------------


I found this old quote interesting:


"I agree that these people are a matter of great concern to us. I fear that one day, through their mistakes or ours, great troubles may occur. The ones who come here are usually the most stupid of their nation. Few understand our language, so we cannot communicate with them through our newspapers . . .

. . .  And now they are coming to our country in great numbers. Few of their children know English. They bring in much of their own reading from their homeland and print newspapers in their own language. In some parts of our state, ads, street signs, and even so me legal documents are in their own language and allowed in courts.  

Unless the stream of these people can be turned away from their country to other countries, they will soon outnumber us so that we will not be able to save our language or our government. However, I am not in favor of keeping them out entirely. All that seems necessary is to distribute them more evenly among us and set up more schools that teach English. In this way, we will preserve the true heritage of our country."

--  Benjamin Franklin

[RD]

The existing immigration policy allows very little legal immigration. 

Maybe that's what you prefer.  Whatever, I guess that's more of a policy decision than a border control decision. 


----------------------------------------------------


I found this old quote interesting:


"I agree that these people are a matter of great concern to us. I fear that one day, through their mistakes or ours, great troubles may occur. The ones who come here are usually the most stupid of their nation. Few understand our language, so we cannot communicate with them through our newspapers . . .

. . .  And now they are coming to our country in great numbers. Few of their children know English. They bring in much of their own reading from their homeland and print newspapers in their own language. In some parts of our state, ads, street signs, and even so me legal documents are in their own language and allowed in courts. 

Unless the stream of these people can be turned away from their country to other countries, they will soon outnumber us so that we will not be able to save our language or our government. However, I am not in favor of keeping them out entirely. All that seems necessary is to distribute them more evenly among us and set up more schools that teach English. In this way, we will preserve the true heritage of our country."

--  Benjamin Franklin

i would concur with Mr. Franklin, but also add that they pay their own way too.

[hemi68charger]

The existing immigration policy allows very little legal immigration.  

Maybe that's what you prefer.  Whatever, I guess that's more of a policy decision than a border control decision.  


----------------------------------------------------


I found this old quote interesting:


"I agree that these people are a matter of great concern to us. I fear that one day, through their mistakes or ours, great troubles may occur. The ones who come here are usually the most stupid of their nation. Few understand our language, so we cannot communicate with them through our newspapers . . .

. . .  And now they are coming to our country in great numbers. Few of their children know English. They bring in much of their own reading from their homeland and print newspapers in their own language. In some parts of our state, ads, street signs, and even so me legal documents are in their own language and allowed in courts.  

Unless the stream of these people can be turned away from their country to other countries, they will soon outnumber us so that we will not be able to save our language or our government. However, I am not in favor of keeping them out entirely. All that seems necessary is to distribute them more evenly among us and set up more schools that teach English. In this way, we will preserve the true heritage of our country."

--  Benjamin Franklin

Awesome quote... I do believe our system does a decent job with the influx of interested people who wish to plant roots here. Heck, some countries don't allow new residences at all or make it nearly impossible to accomplish it........ When you have a good thing going (our country), you have to protect it..........

[69_500]

Yes the process to come to this country is not something that you can just wake up on a Tuesday and be here by a Friday. Should it be? I don't think so.

How long of a process is it to save up enough money to buy a house? Does it not take years? Or should we just build a house and let anyone who wants it move in on Tuesday and make the rest of the country pay for it? NO

How long does it take to become a doctor? Should I just be able to open up a Dr. office tomorrow because I want to be a Dr, but don't want the hassle of actually going to school and getting an education for it? I mean I don't want to wast 6-7 years right I want it now. I mean Dr.'s make more money than I do now so I should be able to just open one up right? NO

There are things in this world that take work, and there are reasons for that.

I have no problem with people working to get here and I have no problem with them being here once they get here legally.

[Mike DC]

Franklin had some good points. 

But I also posted that quote to point out the similarities in the unnecessary complaints back then.  "The ones who come here are the most stupid of their race" etc. 

I don't remember any specific programs to break up the groupings of foreigners in the 1700s.  People generally clumped together by ethnic group for decades to come.  And yet they eventually assimilated over time.

Franklin also complains about the govt printing documents in foreign languages at the time for the immigrants.  As it turned out English was never seriously threatened as the primary langauge of the USA.   



I'm saying that many of Franklin's worries sound like the ones we hear today, and they pretty much resolved themselves over time.

[RD]

his worries have not resolved over time, if that was true.. this thread would not have been posted:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,69352.0.html

his arguments are still the same arguments, the repercussions of the here and now, though, far outweigh the yesteryear.

~~~~~~~~~~~

I was at work just yesterday talking to a co-worker.  She is a "citizen" and works at the school as a para-professional.  She makes 11.51 per hour, a decent wage, but only works during the school year, August through May. During the summer, she finds odd jobs to get by.  She was telling me that since our healthcare costs at the school are too high, she cannot afford it.  So she goes to the SRS office to try and get on the Kansas Vision and Healthwave system.  She is turned down saying she makes too much money.  A single person on our school health care system will pay $569.00 per month.  This is half of her paycheck.  She receives a fringe payment of $150 to help offset the cost.  Now her insurance would be only $419 per month.  She makes $825 a month after taxes.. you minus $419,  you got $406.  Let us see any of you live off of $406 a month, hence she does not have health insurance.  That is without a family, just a single person.  She pays her taxes: income, property, and sales tax each year.

Why should an American citizen who pays for a social services system that helps thousands of illegals NOT BE ABLE TO RECEIVE THE SAME BENEFITS?  She pays for illegals who get benefits, the illegals pay for no one.  The illegals get the benefits, she gets a nice "sorry, but you are up the creek without a paddle."

And yet, we are told to be apologetic to their cause and help them with their citizenship when everyday they continually, just by their very presence and lack of desire to conform to our society, indirectly give us the middle finger by not contributing to the very pot they pull from.  I know why I am pissed off about this whole situation.  My question is this, WHY ISN'T EVERYONE ELSE PISSED OFF?

ANALOGY REPEATED:

It would be like me entering your house without permission, then sitting on your couch eating your food, watching your TV, and breathing in the air conditioned air.  You are paying for all those privileges, but I am just taking because you are not doing anything to stop me or prevent me.  I am the victim of circumstance you see.  I was born into poverty in a country that is so corrupt it could not fight itself out of a wet paper bag.  Because of this, you should feel pity for me and help me and pay for my wants and needs.  Oh, I do not care if it upsets you or your neighbor, just as long as I get what I want that is all that matters.

The illegals lack of respect for this country and the very citizens that pay for services that assist them in healthcare, food, education, and their overall well-being just angers me to the "Nth" degree.  I will not live off of anyone.  I work.  When I lose a job, I find another job... and I work.  I do this legally because those are the standards that are ingrained in my personality.  If I see a problem with my government, I do something to try and fix it.  I do not run and try and buck the system, I work with it.  If it is broke, I fix it.  That is the difference between the illegals and me.  They would much rather skip straight to "go" and collect their 200 dollars then try and fix their own country.  All because of their inability and lack of desire to make their country better, they are putting a larger strain on mine.  I believe I have every right to be pissed off at freeloaders. 

Would a taxicab allow you to ride for free?  Would the airline give you a free ticket to go on a plane?  If you went into McDonalds, would they give you a free happy meal?  There is no such thing as a free lunch.... someone always has to pay for it.  In this case, its the American "legal" taxpayer.

[Ponch ®]

his worries have not resolved over time, if that was true.. this thread would not have been posted:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,69352.0.html

his arguments are still the same arguments, the repercussions of the here and now, though, far outweigh the yesteryear.

~~~~~~~~~~~

I was at work just yesterday talking to a co-worker.  She is a "citizen" and works at the school as a para-professional.  She makes 11.51 per hour, a decent wage, but only works during the school year, August through May. During the summer, she finds odd jobs to get by.  She was telling me that since our healthcare costs at the school are too high, she cannot afford it.  So she goes to the SRS office to try and get on the Kansas Vision and Healthwave system.  She is turned down saying she makes too much money.  A single person on our school health care system will pay $569.00 per month.  This is half of her paycheck.  She receives a fringe payment of $150 to help offset the cost.  Now her insurance would be only $419 per month.  She makes $825 a month after taxes.. you minus $419,  you got $406.  Let us see any of you live off of $406 a month, hence she does not have health insurance.  That is without a family, just a single person.  She pays her taxes: income, property, and sales tax each year.

Why should an American citizen who pays for a social services system that helps thousands of illegals NOT BE ABLE TO RECEIVE THE SAME BENEFITS?  She pays for illegals who get benefits, the illegals pay for no one.  The illegals get the benefits, she gets a nice "sorry, but you are up the creek without a paddle."

And yet, we are told to be apologetic to their cause and help them with their citizenship when everyday they continually, just by their very presence and lack of desire to conform to our society, indirectly give us the middle finger by not contributing to the very pot they pull from.  I know why I am pissed off about this whole situation.  My question is this, WHY ISN'T EVERYONE ELSE PISSED OFF?

ANALOGY REPEATED:

It would be like me entering your house without permission, then sitting on your couch eating your food, watching your TV, and breathing in the air conditioned air.  You are paying for all those privileges, but I am just taking because you are not doing anything to stop me or prevent me.  I am the victim of circumstance you see.  I was born into poverty in a country that is so corrupt it could not fight itself out of a wet paper bag.  Because of this, you should feel pity for me and help me and pay for my wants and needs.  Oh, I do not care if it upsets you or your neighbor, just as long as I get what I want that is all that matters.

The illegals lack of respect for this country and the very citizens that pay for services that assist them in healthcare, food, education, and their overall well-being just angers me to the "Nth" degree.  I will not live off of anyone.  I work.  When I lose a job, I find another job... and I work.  I do this legally because those are the standards that are ingrained in my personality.  If I see a problem with my government, I do something to try and fix it.  I do not run and try and buck the system, I work with it.  If it is broke, I fix it.  That is the difference between the illegals and me.  They would much rather skip straight to "go" and collect their 200 dollars then try and fix their own country.  All because of their inability and lack of desire to make their country better, they are putting a larger strain on mine.  I believe I have every right to be pissed off at freeloaders.  

Would a taxicab allow you to ride for free?  Would the airline give you a free ticket to go on a plane?  If you went into McDonalds, would they give you a free happy meal?  There is no such thing as a free lunch.... someone always has to pay for it.  In this case, its the American "legal" taxpayer.

actually the biggest myth propagated is that illegals get welfare benefits and other social services. They don't. They're not eligible. Do some of them received treatment at hospitals and then "skip out" on the bill? Sure, but so do a ton of Americans.

[RD]

actually the biggest myth propagated is that illegals get welfare benefits and other social services. They don't. They're not eligible. Do some of them received treatment at hospitals and then "skip out" on the bill? Sure, but so do a ton of Americans.

you forget i worked for the SRS in Kansas, and what you just said is sooo not the truth.  We were specifically told to provide emergency services and to NOT report any illegal immigrants in fear of them not coming to us in case they needed services in the future.

[Ponch ®]

actually the biggest myth propagated is that illegals get welfare benefits and other social services. They don't. They're not eligible. Do some of them received treatment at hospitals and then "skip out" on the bill? Sure, but so do a ton of Americans.

you forget i worked for the SRS in Kansas, and what you just said is sooo not the truth.  We were specifically told to provide emergency services and to NOT report any illegal immigrants in fear of them not coming to us in case they needed services in the future.

providing emergency services is one thing.  Hospitals provide emergency services for millions of people that will never pay the bill, and not just illegals. I guess it's because it's the ethical thing to do. But to hear people say it, you'd think illegals come here and go straight to the welfare office and get free health care and a nice check every month. THAT is a myth.

Sorry to hear about your co-worker's situation, but maybe she should consider going to night school or something to improve her life situation, so she can make more money and afford health care. If she can't or won't, too bad....

[RD]

providing emergency services is one thing.  Hospitals provide emergency services for millions of people that will never pay the bill, and not just illegals. I guess it's because it's the ethical thing to do. But to hear people say it, you'd think illegals come here and go straight to the welfare office and get free health care and a nice check every month. THAT is a myth.

emergency services from an SRS perspective is providing money for food, shelter, medical care, eye care, dental care, gas, car payment... shall i go on?  I never said emergency health care is done by us.. we are social workers and counselors, not doctors and nurses.  I never once said that the illegals run straight for the SRS cash cow.  But does it matter?  Many will receive services that are paid for by the taxpayers of this country, but will not do anything to put back into the system they pull from.

I understand that there are many leeches to the system that do not pay into said system.  BUT... that does NOT make it right for those that do not belong in this country to follow such a negative and undesirable premise.  Two wrongs do make a right, and if anyone says that "there are citizens who do it, so why not illegals?", well they are just displaying ignorance and would buck the system in a heartbeat themselves if you ask me.  Those that condone illegal behavior and empathize with it, are those that will most likely take advantage of situations themselves.  It helps them legitimize their inequities.  Redirection, you gotta love it right? 

Sorry to hear about your co-worker's situation, but maybe she should consider going to night school or something to improve her life situation, so she can make more money and afford health care. If she can't or won't, too bad....

I never meant her situation to sound like a "poor woes her" account.  Instead, it was meant to show the gross misappropriation of priorities that our system has brought itself to become.  Where citizens who pay for services that they are never able to receive, but those that do not pay for the same services do receive them, but never provide recompense.

On a side note, she isn't asking for pity, and she never once wanted me to give her a shoulder to cry on.  She has too much pride for menial things like that.  She does what she does and moves on.  I know for a fact she does not sugarcoat anything, and would rather be honest and receive nothing than lie and get everything. I can guarantee you she would probably take your comments and throw them back in your face if given the opportunity.  Personally speaking, she is one of the many individuals in this country who happens to make just enough, but not enough.  We all know someone in her bracket.  They do not want to make a million, are happy where they are at, but would not mind a little easier path once and a while.  They do not run to services every week, month or 6 months.  They rely on themselves.  She has relied on herself for 6 years after being denied benefits from the SRS.  Even though she has diabetes and requires medical care each month, she finds a way to pay for her doctor bills on a payment plan, without getting help from social services.  You jest at her with a snide comment trying to put her on equal footing with illegals because that is what others have said about illegals, but I commend her for not accepting handouts to maintain her lifestyle.  She works, she pays her bills, she pays her taxes, and she contributes to the community.  But of all, she contributes.  What say you about the illegal contributing to the system?

[Ponch ®]

 She works, she pays her bills, she pays her taxes, and she contributes to the community.  But of all, she contributes.  What say you about the illegal contributing to the system?

Reminds me of that Chris Rock joke about guys that say "I take of my kids". You're supposed to take care of your kids! Whatcha want...a cookie? Same goes for people that say "I pay my bills and my taxes". You're supposed to!

I dunno if there's a way to quantify how illegals contribute. It doesn't make it ok for them to be here illegally, but they DO contribute (cheap labor, they do pay sales taxes, and in other ways etc).

I never said that it's ok for illegals to do certain "questionabe" things just because some Americans do them too, but let's stop pretending that illegals are THE biggest problem threatening our country. if your concern is that some immigrants are receiving more in public benefits than they pay in taxes, you should keep in mind that so do 60-70 percent of Americans. Let's see...there's 11 million illegals...and 60-70% of 300,000,000 is what....around 200 million? Maybe we ought to look at that group of freeloaders first...

[RD]

I am not saying they are the biggest problem, but they are a problem.  Just like the huge number of other issues going on with the country, this is an issue that we can control, have the capabilities to control, but are choosing not to control.  Why.. for the many reasons that have been stated up to this point.

We have to start somewhere.  The somewhere, imo, is with those that are NOT supposed to be here in the first place.  Get them out, fix that issue, then move onto the next.  Rome was not built in a day, but damn man.. a brick, a stone, or a foundation has to be laid first.