Illegal Immigration!

[hemi68charger]

Now another quark to the situation, Baby tourism... People coming here with the sole purpose in gaining citizenship, and eventual residency status for the parents, of babies born here.. I don't think for a second the Founding Fathers ever envisioned such exploitation of this fundamental right to the citizens of the United States of America.......

Birth tourism ABC article

[nh_mopar_fan]

ICE Union employees: ICE Director won't let us enforce U.S. immigration laws

In the midst of  a leaked Department of Homeland Security immigration memo that made it to  Senator Chuck Grassley, Iowa Republican, outlining ways for the Obama Administration to give amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants, the Center for Immigration Studies yesterday posted a letter that was authored on June 11, 2010  by the Immigration and Customs Enforcement Union President Chris Crane titled: "VOTE OF NO CONFIDENCE IN ICE DIRECTOR JOHN MORTON AND ODPP ASSISTANT DIRECTOR PHYLLIS COVEN":

On June 11, 2010, the National Immigration and Customs Enforcement Council and its constituent local representatives from around the nation, acting on behalf of approximately 7,000 ICE officers and employees from the ICE Office of Enforcement and Removal Operations (ERO), cast a unanimous "Vote of No Confidence" in the Director of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), John Morton, and the Assistant Director of the ICE Office of Detention Policy and Planning, (ODPP), Phyllis Coven.

According to CIS:  "The letter, acquired through sources, provides a litany of examples of how ICE's mission is being skewed towards supporting an unflinching goal of amnesty by refusing to allow agents to do their job; allowing criminal aliens to roam free; depleting resources for key enforcement initiatives that preceded this administration; and misrepresenting facts and programs, demeaning the extent of the criminal alien problem and geared to support amnesty."

Two bullet points in the letter stick out:

While ICE reports internally that more than 90 percent of ICE detainees are first encountered in jails after they are arrested by local police for criminal charges, ICE senior leadership misrepresents this information publicly in order to portray ICE detainees as being non-criminal in nature to support the Administration's position on amnesty and relaxed security at ICE detention facilities.

The majority of ICE ERO Officers are prohibited from making street arrests or enforcing United States immigration laws outside of the institutional (jail) setting. This has effectively created "amnesty through policy" for anyone illegally in the United States who has not been arrested by another agency for a criminal violation.

Another disturbing point of the letter is the description of the Obama Administration policy on ICE detention centers that have bingo nights, dance lessons, plant hanging:

ICE Detention Reforms have transformed into a detention system aimed at providing resort like living conditions to criminal aliens. Senior ICE leadership excluded ICE officers and field managers (the technical experts on ICE detention) from the development of these reforms, and instead solicited recommendations from special interest groups. The lack of technical expertise and field expertise has resulted in a priority of providing bingo nights, dance lessons and hanging plants to criminals, instead of addressing safe and responsible detention reforms for non-criminal individuals and families. Unlike any other agency in the nation, ICE officers will be prevented from searching detainees housed in ICE facilities allowing weapons, drugs and other contraband into detention centers putting detainees, ICE officers and contract guards at risk.

Back in July, The Washington Post reported calls for Mr. Morton's resignation for being lax on immigration. The director of of ICE would only say, that demands that he step down and criticisms is "just part of the territory."

[Silver R/T]

Why do Mexicans feel like minority. I'm an immigrant and I'm minority also. Why don't we start learning Russian, Chinese, Vietnamese while we're at it. Why does it have to be only Spanish. That way when you buy your parts at AutoZone it will have ALL the languages on the bottle of brake fluid, not just Spanish/English.

[Ponch ®]

Now another quark to the situation, Baby tourism... People coming here with the sole purpose in gaining citizenship, and eventual residency status for the parents, of babies born here.. I don't think for a second the Founding Fathers ever envision such exploitation of this fundamental right to the citizens of the United States of America.......

Birth tourism ABC article

But what to do about it? Deny birthright citizenship? I'm always leery of trying to mess with a basic fundamental right as a "quick and easy" fix to a problem. It's a scary proposition when all of a sudden we decide that the constitution will only apply to these people but not those people, and so on. It sets a bad precedent that can lead to a slippery slide with other rights. Remember, the "its not what the Founding Fathers* meant" or "well, that was then, this is now" arguments have been used in regards to the second amendment by the anti-gun wackos.

Besides, I think that an illegal or a "tourist" risking their lives (in the case of the illegal) or legal consequences (in the case of the tourist) in 2010 so their kid can maybe help them become citizens in 2031 is a little bit of a stretch, considering that the reason most people that come here illegally are doing it out of current desperation.

The worst part, however, is that it would basically amount to making otherwise innocent children suffer the consequences of the illegal actions of their parents. So all of a sudden we have our very own version of the Original Sin.

We've rehashed this over and over again, but just to punctuate that I am not in any way shape or form condoning or defending illegal immigration. But when it comes to issues like this and the Arizona law, to me its more of an issue of "wow...are we really that pissed off to be stupid enough to sell out our own values and the things America stands for just to fix the problem?"


* The idea of Citizenship by birth, at least constitutionally, did not originate with the Founding Fathers. It is in the 14th amendment, which was ratified after the Civil War.

[RD]

good points ponch.  personally, i do not believe we are "selling" ourselves out when it comes to fixing this problem.  the 14th amendment was instituted by those during that era to address an issue.  it was/is an amendment to the constitution.  there are entities out there wanting to remove that portion of the 14th amendment so that it will be befitting of our current times.  it is just part of a solution to a much larger problem.  it will not fix "everything" regarding illegal immigration, but it will fix a decent sized portion of the issues surrounding the "children planting" method.

illegal immigration will only be solved if we annex mexico.  until then, illegal immigrants will just continue to piss me off.

[Ponch ®]

good points ponch.  personally, i do not believe we are "selling" ourselves out when it comes to fixing this problem.  the 14th amendment was instituted by those during that era to address an issue.  it was/is an amendment to the constitution.  there are entities out there wanting to remove that portion of the 14th amendment so that it will be befitting of our current times.  it is just part of a solution to a much larger problem.  it will not fix "everything" regarding illegal immigration, but it will fix a decent sized portion of the issues surrounding the "children planting" method.

illegal immigration will only be solved if we annex mexico.  until then, illegal immigrants will just continue to piss me off.

In a way we are though. We've had these values and ideals for centuries, and they worked out fine. But now that this is the hot topic, all of a sudden we're considering compromising those values in a reactionary way. And maybe that's what some people mean when they say that this country will become a 3rd World nation...we'll slowly but surely start eroding our fundamental ideals just to appease the masses who don't know any better and become a police state. Next thing you know we'll be Venezuela. Look, all I'm saying is...if we start messing with the constitution for this, what's to stop Obama from convincing enough people that, for our own good and because he will solve all of our problems, we need to remove term limits? Or Pelosi (or someone like her) from going after the 2nd amendment in the interest of 'befitting current times'?

Like I've said in the other threads...it's not that immigration isn't a problem, it's that in the process of trying to find a quick fix we're completely missing the mark.

[John_Kunkel]

What's interesting about the 14th Amendment is that some states evidently saw the slippery slope it might lead to.

This amendment was specifically rejected by Texas on Oct 27, 1866; by Georgia on Nov 6, 1866; by North Carolina on Dec 14, 1866; by South Carolina on Dec 20, 1866; by Kentucky on Jan 8, 1867; by Virginia on Jan 9, 1867; by Louisiana on Feb 6, 1867; by Delaware on Feb 8, 1867; and by Maryland on Mar 23, 1867. New Jersey's ratification was rescinded on Mar 24, 1868; Ohio rescinded its ratification on Jan 15, 1868 and ratified again on Mar 13, 2003.

[Ponch ®]

What's interesting about the 14th Amendment is that some states evidently saw the slippery slope it might lead to.

You need to place that in context though. Most of those states were part of the Confederacy and this was right after they'd lost the Civil War. Damned if they were gonna let any recently freed blacks or their children be considered citizens of Dixieland...

[hemi68charger]

illegal immigration will only be solved if we annex mexico.  until then, illegal immigrants will just continue to piss me off.

....or, if the scumbag corrupt politicians of the Americas south of the Rio Grande are run out of town, into the Pacific. After all, we don't want those responsible for said corruption showing up on our door steps. Nothing will blossom if countries south of the border don't develop their own governmental and business environment. If there's no reason to leave, people won't... I'm sure people from Mexico or Costa Rica are moving to Colorado for its snow.....

* The idea of Citizenship by birth, at least constitutionally, did not originate with the Founding Fathers. It is in the 14th amendment, which was ratified after the Civil War.

You get my point...     I'm just a lowly geophysicist..... But, I believe the 14th was aimed at the Africans that were brought here against their will... Never said I was a History major..

And who says amendments can't be changed, just look at what happened with the 18th and 21th........

[RD]

And who says amendments can't be changed, just look at what happened with the 18th and 21th........

that is exactly my point.  the constitution is a "living" document that was developed so it COULD be changed to meet with the current ideals of the public in regards to what we desire within our country.  if WE do not want illegal immigration and producing another amendment to an amendment to stop the "child planting" epidemic, then it is OUR RIGHT to do so.  it is not usurping our ideals its called IMPLEMENTING THEM.

[Ponch ®]

And who says amendments can't be changed, just look at what happened with the 18th and 21th........

that is exactly my point.  the constitution is a "living" document that was developed so it COULD be changed to meet with the current ideals of the public in regards to what we desire within our country.  if WE do not want illegal immigration and producing another amendment to an amendment to stop the "child planting" epidemic, then it is OUR RIGHT to do so.  it is not usurping our ideals its called IMPLEMENTING THEM.

Of course they can be changed. The crux is really whether we really want to go there. Like I said, you start messing with it for this and theres not telling what 'they' will mess with next. The public is generally too uninformed...remember that at some point "the public" was ok with slavery, segregation, women not voting, and so on...

[Mike DC]

 
A few people have pointed this out before and I think they're exactly right: 


If you put the Bill of Rights in front of the American public for the first time today, and it had never previously existed . . . most of it would be voted down.  We are not the same people that we fancy ourselves to be.

[RD]

ok, just cause i like to  

[hemi68charger]

And who says amendments can't be changed, just look at what happened with the 18th and 21th........

that is exactly my point.  the constitution is a "living" document that was developed so it COULD be changed to meet with the current ideals of the public in regards to what we desire within our country.  if WE do not want illegal immigration and producing another amendment to an amendment to stop the "child planting" epidemic, then it is OUR RIGHT to do so.  it is not usurping our ideals its called IMPLEMENTING THEM.

Of course they can be changed. The crux is really whether we really want to go there. Like I said, you start messing with it for this and theres not telling what 'they' will mess with next. The public is generally too uninformed...remember that at some point "the public" was ok with slavery, segregation, women not voting, and so on...

This is true.. It's everyone's responsibility to "get informed with current events"...... Things can change; just ask Ben Franklin, George Washington, etc... They didn't like the direction their land was going, so they changed it, albeit, with a Declaration and War....... 

I'm living proof one person can see something wrong with the Status quo and do something about it, it's called changing the law. Now, just imagine what it would be like when a whole lot of people have the same sentiment.

[ac_knight]

I see amending the 14th Amendment as a start in fixing a problem.  It is only a start, it was put there in there to fix a problem in the first place, now it needs to be amendend to fix another problem.  What it really boils down to is Washington taking some kind of action.  I agree with Arizona and Virgina in trying to do something.  The federal government has not done what is needed, so the states are taking it up.  The first thing we need to worry about is securing our border.  We would have less "anchor babies" is we were stopping more people from illegally crossing.  I think the 14th does need to be changed, it has always been a fix to a problem, let it be the start of a fix to this problem.

[Mike DC]

 
The question of whether or not to stop the flood of illegals is "debated" by the American public, just like the Berlin wall was "debated" by the east Germans. 

   

[hemi68charger]

...  I think the 14th does need to be changed, it has always been a fix to a problem, let it be the start of a fix to this problem.

Unfortunately, it isn't as easy as that.... There are many many people from South/Central America,Europe and Asia that do come here with a B1/2 tourist visa with the sole intention of having a child born here.... Times change and so should documents.

Troy

[RD]

to get a ratification of a change to a amendment, both the senate and the house of representatives need to have a majority, the president needs to sign off, and it must be ratified by at least 2/3 3/4ths of the states.. correction, thanks!!  if i am mistaken, someone please correct me, its early and i am going off of a very bleak memory of the process.

[PocketThunder]

to get a ratification of a change to a amendment, both the senate and the house of representatives need to have a majority, the president needs to sign off, and it must be ratified by at least 2/3 of the states.  if i am mistaken, someone please correct me, its early and i am going off of a very bleak memory of the process.

http://www.usconstitution.net/constam.html   

[Khyron]

I like cake.

[tricky lugnuts]

No big deal. 

Those "anchor babies" were only five percent of the U.S. baby population last year, and projected to be eight percent of the population next year:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-08-11-illegal-immigrant-childrenl_N.htm

[RD]

No big deal.  

Those "anchor babies" were only five percent of the U.S. baby population last year, and projected to be eight percent of the population next year:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-08-11-illegal-immigrant-childrenl_N.htm

only 5% huh?  i wonder what all these people are screaming about not letting them illegals come on in? (<--- sarcasm)

considering 5% of 307,006,550 (U.S. population: CLICK HERE) IS "JUST" 15,350,327 and 1/2 people.

Folks, that is roughly 13 MILLION more children being born illegally in the U.S. than are in my home state of Kansas!

[Ponch ®]

No big deal.  

Those "anchor babies" were only five percent of the U.S. baby population last year, and projected to be eight percent of the population next year:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-08-11-illegal-immigrant-childrenl_N.htm

only 5% huh?  i wonder what all these people are screaming about not letting them illegals come on in? (<--- sarcasm)

considering 5% of 307,006,550 (U.S. population: CLICK HERE) IS "JUST" 15,350,327 and 1/2 people.

Folks, that is roughly 13 MILLION more children being born illegally in the U.S. than are in my home state of Kansas!

ummm read the link again, Hoss. It's 5% of the population that's under 18, not the total population. The number of children born (per year) is closer to 340,000. Still a lot, but certainly not "13 Million".

Don't take this as a shot at you, RD, but this exactly what I mean when I say that "the public" isn't really all that informed. We find a headline, maybe skim through the actual article (if we bother to read it at all), and then make some general affirmation based on that. And of course we should let the public decide whether or not we should mess with the supreme law of the land.  

And those children, whether we like it or not, are still US Citizens like you and me. They didn't do anything wrong. Their parents may have, but that's not the kids' fault. This is isn't India..we don't need to establish a caste system.

[Tilar]

You know what, Just build the damn wall and put 220v all around it with plenty of warning. If they still try to cross and get electricuted we'll consider it chlorinating the gene pool. There has already been a ton of money approved to build it. Just go ahead and add enough to go all the way across the border. It would be the cheapest thing we've spent money on in the last 18 months.

[lisiecki1]

"Four million children in the U.S. were born of illegal immigrant parents but were granted U.S. citizenship because they were born on American soil, according to a report released today.
Those children represented about 5% of ALL the children in the U.S. under the age of 18 in 2009, according to the report from the Pew Hispanic Center. That percentage will increase in the future, however, as an estimated 340,000 of the 4.3 million babies born in the U.S. in 2008 — about 8% — came from illegal immigrant parents, the report says. "

quoted for clarity (from http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-08-11-illegal-immigrant-childrenl_N.htm) for those who haven't bothered to read the article.

That's a pretty significant amount to me.