Summit Racing EFI ?

[c00nhunterjoe]

Didnt mean to make it sound confrontational. Simply stating that once its adjusted, its good to go. There will be no seat of the pants differences with elevation changes. If your weekend cruiser needs the carb disassembled constantly, something is wrong. Set it and forget it. The carb on my 383 wasnt touched for over 10 yrs. Now a nitrous or blower app as you said, yeah, go injected. It makes sense. I just dont get the bandwagon for a need on a cruiser.

[HPP]

You are right about carbs but what is a crisp running, fast starting engine at see level is a (relatively) overfuelled and gutless dog in the hills. No amount of carb setup skill will overcome that.

Nor will any amount of computer tuning in an efi system. The lack of oxygen is what robs the power from the engine at elevation. Even if you are taking fuel out of the equation with tuning, you can restore the stociometric formula, but power levels will still drop.

[timmycharger]

It's a personal preference   

I respect the guys that know how to tune EFI and get maximum performance and drivability out of their cars, its just hot rodding on another level.  Also, there is a reason you don't see carbs on F1 cars, its ancient technology.

For me, carbs are one of the main reasons I love my Charger, I love the simplicity of them, and the old school wow factor of my six pack set up that EFI just cant match. (again, my opinion).  I am sure I am leaving horsepower and fuel economy on the table, but who cares, if I want fuel injection, I'll just jump in my daily driver. 

Plus, its been 15+ years since I have been able to drive my Charger, I kind of miss the smell of raw unburned fuel on me after a drive 

[alfaitalia]

You are right about carbs but what is a crisp running, fast starting engine at see level is a (relatively) overfuelled and gutless dog in the hills. No amount of carb setup skill will overcome that.

Nor will any amount of computer tuning in an efi system. The lack of oxygen is what robs the power from the engine at elevation. Even if you are taking fuel out of the equation with tuning, you can restore the stociometric formula, but power levels will still drop.

Of course...you need oxygen to burn the fuel to make the power...but at least the efi won't be putting in fuel you can't burn.

[alfaitalia]

It's a personal preference   

I respect the guys that know how to tune EFI and get maximum performance and drivability out of their cars, its just hot rodding on another level.  Also, there is a reason you don't see carbs on F1 cars, its ancient technology.

For me, carbs are one of the main reasons I love my Charger, I love the simplicity of them, and the old school wow factor of my six pack set up that EFI just cant match. (again, my opinion).  I am sure I am leaving horsepower and fuel economy on the table, but who cares, if I want fuel injection, I'll just jump in my daily driver. 

Plus, its been 15+ years since I have been able to drive my Charger, I kind of miss the smell of raw unburned fuel on me after a drive 

All good points and well made. However even though I'm in my fifties and was raised on carbed cars and can strip, rebuild and set up carbs and balance them (in fours on my old bikes!)...where is the "simplicity" in a carb. They are far more complex (from a user's  point of view if not in how they function) and take a lot more skill to set up. My son could probably get one of the simple plug and play tbi systems ...tuning the engine to an acceptable level...takes a lot of skill and knowledge to do the same with a six pack for example. I'll admit that the almost custom made system I'm working towards with 3d ignition and injection mapping takes at lot of skill to right the software but I bet pretty much any of you could be adjusting mixture in relation to throttle position and timing within half an hour of turning the PC on.

There is plenty of space for both systems in our hobby.....I love them both. I just need the fueling to be pretty precise for my plans.

[JR]

You are right about carbs but what is a crisp running, fast starting engine at see level is a (relatively) overfuelled and gutless dog in the hills. No amount of carb setup skill will overcome that.

Nor will any amount of computer tuning in an efi system. The lack of oxygen is what robs the power from the engine at elevation. Even if you are taking fuel out of the equation with tuning, you can restore the stociometric formula, but power levels will still drop.

Theres more to consider than just horsepower figures. Engine longevity for example.

While both engines would lose power at high elevation, the TBI engine isn't running rich while doing so. It isn't washing down the cylinders with excess fuel. Saving engine wear and improving mpg.

Now that said, if HP is your only concern, you may as well stick with a carb and use the extra cash elsewhere.

[HPP]

You are right about carbs but what is a crisp running, fast starting engine at see level is a (relatively) overfuelled and gutless dog in the hills. No amount of carb setup skill will overcome that.

Nor will any amount of computer tuning in an efi system. The lack of oxygen is what robs the power from the engine at elevation. Even if you are taking fuel out of the equation with tuning, you can restore the stociometric formula, but power levels will still drop.

Theres more to consider than just horsepower figures. Engine longevity for example.

While both engines would lose power at high elevation, the TBI engine isn't running rich while doing so. It isn't washing down the cylinders with excess fuel. Saving engine wear and improving mpg.

Now that said, if HP is your only concern, you may as well stick with a carb and use the extra cash elsewhere.

Excellent points.

In my old truck, I stuck with the carb because the payback period of gaining a mile or two of mpg over the carb was not there at all. Since it was so well tuned, it also lacked the fuel wash down that would have been a big issue, but since it was a toy and not a daily driver, a 50,000 mile rebuild was decades away. I preferred to use the carb, as at that time the $2000 was better spent elsewhere in its restoration.

In my race vehicle, most of its life was spent at WOT. Since it did receive annual tear downs and inspections, the $2k was better spent in the next freshening.

On my current build for a street car, the carb is on it for the sake of keeping things moving forward. I have evaluated and planed on building a home brewed MPI system. However, time is a big factor for me, so the carb will get me on the street and rolling long before I can commit the time to modifying an intake, building fuel rails, and setting up electronics. An $800 tbi, does seem to have some advantages and if I had to purchase a $400-500 high end carb, would definetely be a consideration.

[68CoronetRT]

haha I love #teamefi  !! lol

But seriously, get with the times people!

[c00nhunterjoe]

Get with the times? A throttle body efi run with a distributor is 1980s technology.... far from modern. If you want modern efi and actual reap the benefits, then spend the money, go multiport and distributorless so you can actually program fuel and ignition tables and really see the improvements. Im not some old fart who is stuck in the dark ages. I have raced modern efi setups and written the programs. I got my stock 07 hemi with 150k on it into the 12s primarily on programming that i did. My whole dispute with this topic is the style of efi that is being pushed and why...

[Midnight_Rider]

If you want modern efi and actual reap the benefits, then spend the money, go multiport and distributorless so you can actually program fuel and ignition tables and really see the improvements.

I am not looking down on carbs, I just made the original post because I'm looking into EFI myself and thought others might like to know there's another (less expensive) choice in the TBI genre, which is seemingly pretty popular these days.

To your quote above, FiTech is in the process of releasing their "Go Port" sequential EFI (which I have been tracking with interest)... complete with sensors/injectors/intake/fuel rails for big/small Chevy & Windsor Fords -- no Mopar, of course. But, they do offer a stand-alone unit minus fuel rails, intake, and injectors for $1295. Pretty sure you'll still be stuck with a distributor though, assuming their software hasn't changed from the TBI setups they offer.

http://fitechefi.com/products/goport/


I am interested in going distributorless myself (at least to wasted spark, if not coil-near-plug), which would require another controller like a low end Megasquirt or older Megajolt; more clutter. If you want to use Megasquirt to control timing and fuel, then you're back to piecing everything together ala carte, no packaged throttle body/hidden ECU.

Now, having said all that... I still think I'd be a lot more confident using a carb & dizzy on a newly built engine for first fire & cam break-in.

[Laowho]

We have the QF 780 VS too and it was dyno-tuned after the build. Initially I was absolutely certain we'd go EFI (fitech) cuz I thought cold starts would halve the life of the engine, and all the other imaginings I could come up with, but then we realized that we don't have "cold starts," or gas smell, bog, etc., and it spins like a top. Maybe with the next motor our son's friends will wanna do their versions of mega squirt. How cool is that?

[c00nhunterjoe]

If you want modern efi and actual reap the benefits, then spend the money, go multiport and distributorless so you can actually program fuel and ignition tables and really see the improvements.

I am not looking down on carbs, I just made the original post because I'm looking into EFI myself and thought others might like to know there's another (less expensive) choice in the TBI genre, which is seemingly pretty popular these days.

To your quote above, FiTech is in the process of releasing their "Go Port" sequential EFI (which I have been tracking with interest)... complete with sensors/injectors/intake/fuel rails for big/small Chevy & Windsor Fords -- no Mopar, of course. But, they do offer a stand-alone unit minus fuel rails, intake, and injectors for $1295. Pretty sure you'll still be stuck with a distributor though, assuming their software hasn't changed from the TBI setups they offer.

http://fitechefi.com/products/goport/


I am interested in going distributorless myself (at least to wasted spark, if not coil-near-plug), which would require another controller like a low end Megasquirt or older Megajolt; more clutter. If you want to use Megasquirt to control timing and fuel, then you're back to piecing everything together ala carte, no packaged throttle body/hidden ECU.

Now, having said all that... I still think I'd be a lot more confident using a carb & dizzy on a newly built engine for first fire & cam break-in.

I didnt think you were talking down on carbs. Im just open on the discussion. It irks me that a majority of guys out there think that tbi setups are a magic cure all that gives big boosts in horsepower, fuel economy and driveability. Not saying thats how you feel either, just want to keep the avenues open so to speak. As ive stated before, if the said person is not good with carbs and is looking for a weekend warrior cruiser, then sure, tbi might be the way to go because lets face it, how many shops today are actually good with carbs?

[Midnight_Rider]

I didnt think you were talking down on carbs. Im just open on the discussion.

Cool, and I'll be the first to say I'm here to learn... always new stuff to learn. Appreciated you helping with engine build advice on a thread I posted several months back.

because lets face it, how many shops today are actually good with carbs?

True story: I had the Mustang I recently sold out for a cruise a couple of years ago, stopped at a convenience store... saw a friend of mine who wanted to see the engine, so I popped the hood & was explaining the build. Young guy, late teens/early 20s kinda gravitates over... when I got to the part where I said "750 Holley carburetor", he looked at me and kinda cocked his head and said "carburetor? what's a carburetor?"... at that moment I knew I was officially old, lol.

[JR]

I dont think anyone is really saying TBI is equal to multiport in quality or performance.

But tbi is 800 bucks, and installs in an afternoon. Its not the ultimate in performance, but its up there in convenience, cost, and packaging. (More big selling points for me.)

[cdr]

I have a brand new holley c950 TBI set up that I had BEFORE I built my engine, instead I bought a 950hp carb to use, when I go efi it will be port efi, I have been working with EFI  after market and oem since the late 80's, from my experience TBI is just an electronic carb that has fuel distribution problems  

[flyinlow]

My Sisters  car has direct injection. Starts and runs great! I am thinking about changing my Accord v6 and my Hemi Ram from port injection to direct injection. I think on the Hemi I can take one plug out and screw in an injector.

[JR]

My Sisters  car has direct injection. Starts and runs great! I am thinking about changing my Accord v6 and my Hemi Ram from port injection to direct injection. I think on the Hemi I can take one plug out and screw in an injector.

Wanna go one step further??

[randy73]

Now that EVERYONE has gone off topic, it looks to me like the Summit is FITECH rebranded, not an expert but they look very similar.

[JR]

Now that EVERYONE has gone off topic, it looks to me like the Summit is FITECH rebranded, not an expert but they look very similar.

To get back on topic, the only info I could find on this unit was on a blog ran by Summit.

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2017/08/30/summit-racing-unleashes-new-max-efi-500-electronic-fuel-injection-system-video/

And
https://www.summitracing.com/newproductsandmedia/newproductreleases/summit-racing-max-efi-500-fuel-injection-system-now-available


There's a YouTube link showing some different pics of the kit. There are similarities to the FiTech kit. It appears to use the same OE GM (I'm guessing?) sensors and injectors. The ECU is remote mounted in the summit kit, whereas the FItech is built into the throttle body.

Also the summit kit appears to be the bare bones requirements. No provisions for boost or nitrous, and limited to 500 hp.

I can't find any more info on it at the moment.

[alfaitalia]

Pretty good read with some useful (if very slightly outdated- 2014) info for those (like me) going the EFI route. Just a preview so the complete book could be an OK read...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8aoFBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=8-71+injector+plate+under+blower&source=bl&ots=gGXB9pl2HD&sig=iCrIdAjLaD1wDJLPThBFrKaSGGA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjL7_SjrazWAhUGZlAKHQ6aDLwQ6AEIYzAL#v=onepage&q=8-71%20injector%20plate%20under%20blower&f=false