sad

[charger_fan_4ever]

Read on a charger group on Fb guy is selling his #s match motor and trans from a 68 r/t. Somebody asked why not keep it and the answer was its getting a modern engine swap. I mean your going to dump what $20k+ into a modern engine swap and keeping the original in the corner of the shop isnt worth the $3500neg your selling it for ?

Why you start with a #s match r/t to ruin is beyond me. Starting with a 318 car without its engine ect ok i can understand to each his own, but this makes me shake my head.

He made a comment that every charger is #s matching so no loss.

[Laowho]

Yeah, even tho we're "modernizing" and changing a thing or two, everything that it came with stays, and honestly, the Torqueflite in the corner and old wheels really add some class to our garage. But #s matching? That's a head-scratcher.

[Ryan.C]

Everybody views these cars differently. I like cool cars the numbers on the car or various parts mean nothing to me personally. I think a "clone" is just as good as an "original". If someone thinks a numbers matching car is better thats fine I just do not share that opinion.

[DAY CLONA]

For some, numbers matching engines/drive lines, buildsheets, fender tags, mean nothing, I've tossed MSRP window stickers, fender tags, dealer's paper work, owner's manuals, etc, etc in the trash as I had no need for them, even on cars I have in my collection

...you probably wouldn't want to hear about the 340, 383, and assorted 440 engines that I got tired of storing that went into a few dumpsters

[alfaitalia]

I can see that from both sides. A numbers matching base model or 318...fair game in my opinion. A rare car like a Hemi, sunroof car or SE perhaps...well that's a different story. Having said that how many numbers matching cars actually have the same body they left the factory with anyway. Be it a rusted out car that's had 80% of it's metal replaced but the numbers saved or even a full rebody with tag and numbers cut out and swapped over.....and let's be honest there are lots of those around and folks openly admit to it on this very forum. I bet lots of folks have bought "matching numbers" cars that fall into these categories wether they realised or not.....or even built them themselves. Imo unless it's got ..let's say 75%.....of it's original metal left , the fact that it's matching numbers becomes a bit irrelevant. Even if it is NOS rather than AMD. It's not the car that left the factory. Unless you know the car from new....how do you know the  "real" history of your car.

[Ryan.C]

I must be on the far end of the no F's given spectrum. I wouldnt feel bad about cutting up a super rare and desirable car. 

[John_Kunkel]

Suppose he keeps the NM engine/trans and never reinstalls it in the car and the next owner doesn't want it, even for free?

And, "keeping it in a corner" supposes he has a corner to spare....I sure don't.

[Chargen69]

I'd sell the whole car, buy a 318 car and be ahead of the game

[darbgnik]

Well, judging by resale prices, taking personal opinion out of the equation, R/T cars are worth more than base models. When you repower them with a modern drivetrain, they still have an R/T VIN, but that's about it. Modern advantages and convenience aside, you have to see it for what it is, a Frankenstein car. It could be a better looking, performing, and driving car, but still a Frankenstein. Not much different than putting a SBC in a Mustang really.

Might as well sell it, buy a base model, and use the cash made to modernize the base model. But that's only my 2 cents, which is honestly worth less than that.

[Laowho]

Might as well sell it, buy a base model, and use the cash made to modernize the base model. But that's only my 2 cents, which is honestly worth less than that.

Your 2 cents might be worth more if they had the nickle they came with, but you've already said that. Yeah, we entertained the #s matching thing for exactly one day. Going with a car that will never be correct solved our difficulties, and with it worth less it's a relief for driving and updating. 

[Ghoste]

Of course when they sell it, they expect the same mega dollars they saw a fully documented one fetch on some tv auction.  Not my place to tell anyone what to do with their car but the customized stuff isn't my thing for sure.

[Bronzedodge]

The current crop of new Mustangs, Camaros, and Challengers with their high horsepower, retro styling, and modern comfort; coupled with the popularity of modern drivetrains in vintage bodies, has diminished the desirability of numbers-matching.

[ACUDANUT]

 Who would throw a BB and trans into the trash ?

[Challenger340]

There is #'s matching..... as in "rebuilt/restored/redone"
and then,
there is "numbers matching" as in.... UN-rebuilt, UN-restored, and original UN-touched since new.

IMO,
far too much emphasis and value placed on the former, as some "moniker" to authenticity, given, the quality of the "rebuild/restore/redone" Engines ..... are typically a mere shadow of the original factory performance !
just a pet peeve of mine,
but if you are going to advertise "Numbers Matching" once restored/rebuilt/redone ?
WTF is the point unless the original factory performance has also been maintained in the process.... and THAT pretty much never happens !

[darbgnik]

Your 2 cents might be worth more if they had the nickle they came with, but you've already said that. Yeah, we entertained the #s matching thing for exactly one day. Going with a car that will never be correct solved our difficulties, and with it worth less it's a relief for driving and updating. 

That was my thought as well, which is why I started with a numbers nothing, 318 powered 500. It's a shame the build sheet looks brand new, and it doesn't matter.

Even then, I am still leery of no-go-back mods even on this car. I definitely wouldn't have the heart to hack up an original.

[darbgnik]

double post.

[Chargerguy74]

To me "numbers matching" is just that. Numbers that match. Block VIN, trans VIN, body VINs, fender tag and dash VIN. Everything else could be date coded, resto modded, or whatever and it wouldn't change the fact that the car is matching numbers or not. A pouch of a matching numbers motor or a stroked matching motor is still matching. There is value in it for me, but not a huge amount as I'm drawn to big block 4 speed cars that normally grenaded their factory engines long ago. My numbers matching drivetrains have been pulled and put in storage, and as long as I own the cars, will probably stay in storage while I enjoy beating on a non numbers block/trans. Guys tell me my cars are no longer matching numbers because I pulled the originals for safe keeping. I don't really understand where they're coming from as the originals exist and are also in my possession (and in fine condition). Each to their own though.

[Midnight_Rider]

My numbers matching drivetrains have been pulled and put in storage, and as long as I own the cars, will probably stay in storage while I enjoy beating on a non numbers block/trans. Guys tell me my cars are no longer matching numbers because I pulled the originals for safe keeping. I don't really understand where they're coming from as the originals exist and are also in my possession (and in fine condition). Each to their own though.

Don't sweat those guys. They blow theirs up they'll wish they'd done the same.

[Mike DC]

The current crop of new Mustangs, Camaros, and Challengers with their high horsepower, retro styling, and modern comfort; coupled with the popularity of modern drivetrains in vintage bodies, has diminished the desirability of numbers-matching.

I think it has more to do with the generational change.  

Guys who weren't at the buying/driving age until the cars already had high mileage are a different breed from the original buyers.  They never experienced a time when "original" equated to "better" like the older generations did.

For a young buyer in the 1990s-later, "all original unrestored" usually meant "needs a total resto."  Furthermore, once all the cars need to be restored to be in nice condition and clones were being done well, then finding a "numbers matching" car for sale just meant "higher price for the same thing."

[Kern Dog]

How many numbers matching cars actually have the same body they left the factory with anyway. Be it a rusted out car that's had 80% of it's metal replaced but the numbers saved or even a full rebody with tag and numbers cut out and swapped over.  Imo unless it's got ..let's say 75%.....of it's original metal left , the fact that it's matching numbers becomes a bit irrelevant. Even if it is NOS rather than AMD. It's not the car that left the factory. Unless you know the car from new....how do you know the  "real" history of your car.

I LIKE this opinion.

[Challenger340]

How many numbers matching cars actually have the same body they left the factory with anyway. Be it a rusted out car that's had 80% of it's metal replaced but the numbers saved or even a full rebody with tag and numbers cut out and swapped over.  Imo unless it's got ..let's say 75%.....of it's original metal left , the fact that it's matching numbers becomes a bit irrelevant. Even if it is NOS rather than AMD. It's not the car that left the factory. Unless you know the car from new....how do you know the  "real" history of your car.

I LIKE this opinion.

So what do you describe a Car as in terminology..... besides "Numbers Matching", that has been repainted(exterior only in the 80's), but that otherwise is factory original with no parts changed, rebuilt, or altered, and all original sheet metal ?
Can't use the term 'survivor' because of the exterior repaint, but otherwise it is.
and
'numbers matching' just doesn't seem to go far enough in describing all the still present original untouched parts like Points dizzy, Carb, Choke, clips, hoses, factory exhaust system, brake linings, interior, etc., etc. and all still in minty condition same as the otherwise UN-restored, UN-rebuilt Car ? (still running perfectly)

[alfaitalia]

Valid point.....and I for one would not know where to really draw the line. For me it would ne original block, trans and most metal work. Most of the other things you mention would go under the category of maintenance parts and are pretty much bound to have been replaced on any car actually used over the year.

[Kern Dog]

Years ago when these cars were new, who could have expected that 50 years later that enthusiasts would rebuild a stripped out, rusted one?

[Dragon Slayer]

Valid point.....and I for one would not know where to really draw the line. For me it would ne original block, trans and most metal work. Most of the other things you mention would go under the category of maintenance parts and are pretty much bound to have been replaced on any car actually used over the year.

Problem is there are maintenance parts that have assembly line part numbers and date codes or unique for the time period, that folks looking for # matching cars care about, and these can be quite expensive to find and replace.  Alternator, master cylinder, starter, carbs, distributor, brake rotors (2 piece), etc...  If your thing is going back to OEM correct and original, that is where the problem is. 

I think that is a reason the resto mod has been so popular, especially with younger folks.  Customize and modernize, make unique, and probably at a lower initial cost.  Though some of these resto mods bring as much/more than OEM correct cars.  G

[charger_fan_4ever]

I'd sell the whole car, buy a 318 car and be ahead of the game

My thoughts exactly. Lets face 50 years later how many #s match cars are still available in project form. The thought of tossing its drivetrain putting on big bling rims custom interior makes me sick lol.

[alfaitalia]

Valid point.....and I for one would not know where to really draw the line. For me it would ne original block, trans and most metal work. Most of the other things you mention would go under the category of maintenance parts and are pretty much bound to have been replaced on any car actually used over the year.

Problem is there are maintenance parts that have assembly line part numbers and date codes or unique for the time period, that folks looking for # matching cars care about, and these can be quite expensive to find and replace.  Alternator, master cylinder, starter, carbs, distributor, brake rotors (2 piece), etc...  If your thing is going back to OEM correct and original, that is where the problem is. 

I think that is a reason the resto mod has been so popular, especially with younger folks.  Customize and modernize, make unique, and probably at a lower initial cost.  Though some of these resto mods bring as much/more than OEM correct cars.  G

I agree. I'm going that route as ; a, I'm all about seeing the car as being as individual as me and b, doing a by the numbers rebuild would be just about impossible in the UK without a massive budget and endless time to find and import parts. To be fair as pretty as a full resto to Day One is, most are far from accurate with their deep smooth paint and even panel gaps. But who wants their cars with mismatched panels gaps (you can get your fingers in!) and curtains of paint anywhere out of sight.....mine had a big original one for about a foot on the left lower fender!! Spotlessly clean undersides just didnt happen either....even brand new cars built today are not as clean as many of the full rebuilds on hear....and there were worse back then with finger prints, smudges in the underseal, over spray of various substances on suspension parts. Most restore to what the car should have been, rather than what they were. Mass produced cars from the 60s and 70s where pretty horribly painted and put (thrown?) together. But as said many times before.....do whatever lights your fire.....and they sure are pretty to look at......even if most cant/don't drive them!!!