HAVE VIDEO NOW PG 3 ! JUST GOT THIS 1969 DAYTONA CLONE WITH SUPER WEIRD HISTORY

[kevs1969daytona]

Ok so last week I was shopping for a wood grain steering for my 1970 Charger and came a across an add ON KIJIJI about 10 mins old for this 1969 charger "project car", long story short I picked it up within 2 hours after driving 150 miles.  Guy had 9 calls when I was there for the car. The guy had become frustrated with the car after he blow the engine 10 years ago.  It was sitting in a trailer for 10 years.  I checked the VIN its a 318 car, so no big deal it's a clone got it with a new engine (not put all together) but it's solid. The guy even let me borrow his trailer for the trip home.  Was $35000 Cdn thats about $27000 USA.  came with 2 engines as well a date code 1970 440 HP and a 413 engine.  Lots of parts.  Anyways I had a guy over the other day thats is the local president of the Mopar Association (who incidentally was trying to buy it as well but I beat him to the punch).  He kind of starts freaking out a bit, say the wing, nose cone and rear plug are all metal. Says that super weird as they are usually fiberglass.  Then he checks the VIN under the rear molding it does not match the VIN last numbers are 32508 not even close to the VIN, which according to him the dash was replaced .  Then I recall the seller telling me (which I took with a grain of salt) that the car was purchased from a friend of his in the mid 80's out of Florida, said something about being in a museum in "Daytona" (ya right I thought)  but he really believed it.  Then he shows me it has 2 gas caps according to him actually raced at Daytona so the pit crew did not run into traffic when and if they change directions on the track (is that possible??)"no way this was true I thought".  Then I get it home and notice the cone is all metal and has no signal lights it's solid.  WFT??? is that about.  It's not street legal without signal lights.  Any info, thoughts, concerns please tell me the Mopar Association guy was scratching his head the entire time.  He even called over another Mopar friend we were all confused.

[DAY CLONA]

Good lookin score for the price!, nose looks like the grille openings were either molded in?, or never had any openings other than the headlights....is the rear wing steel or aluminum? a magnet will tell you that, if you remove the latch tray that should answer some questions regarding the nose?....is the nose steel or aluminum?


Mike

[1970Moparmann]

From the second picture, the car looks sweet!   More pictures!!

[Dans 68]

Nice buy!    And welcome to the site.   

Dan

[68X426]

Yes, welcome. Do tell more. 

[kevs1969daytona]

Ya the cone is metal but the rear wing is not magnetic, definitely not fiberglass, it some sort of metal  must be aluminum.  What does that mean???  I have put it on the driveway everyone slows down they don't even look at my 70 R/T was going to get a 2006 to 2010 viper hard top but I think this is way cooler  

[kevs1969daytona]

Heres a picture of my wife not too impressed.  Spent last 4 days under the new car putting her back together, wife says I have a mistress in the garage  

[Troy]

Looks nice to me! The factory wings were aluminum. Some reproductions are solid aluminum. Some are fiberglass. Not sure if anyone makes a hollow aluminum reproduction. I'd take this car over that generation of Viper any day!

Troy

[kevs1969daytona]

Thanks

[DAY CLONA]

Looks nice to me! The factory wings were aluminum. Some reproductions are solid aluminum. Some are fiberglass. Not sure if anyone makes a hollow aluminum reproduction. I'd take this car over that generation of Viper any day!

Troy

Dane makes hollow aluminum wings, my wings are hollow steel...

[kevs1969daytona]

the magnet will not hold on the back wing but ok on the front

[DAY CLONA]

the magnet will not hold on the back wing but ok on the front

Pretty much indicates the rear wing as aluminum alloy casting, and a steel cone, question is, is the cone original or repro?, you'll find out when the latch tray is removed and you can get some pics of the internals or see how it's constructed, make note of the internals construction, fiberglass or steel components , Z bars, latch tray, headlight buckets, doors, pivots, etc, etcc

MIke

[odcics2]

"Then he checks the VIN under the rear molding it does not match the VIN last numbers are 32508 not even close to the VIN"

You need to find out why.   

[PettyMower]

What are the numbers found on the trunk rail? If by chance, it's not a clone, those numbers will be VERY helpful tracing it's real identity.

Just curious, are both fuel fill necks attached to the tank? Or is the right just a dummy? If connected, please post pics.

[Dodge Don]

Curious if the dash was from a 69 and body from a 70 Charger.....the vin from trunk lip and rad support would be interesting to check.  Has 70 high back buckets.

[Daytona R/T SE]

If you've got multiple VIN numbers on the same car, you've got multiple problems.  

First, I'd figure out if you bought a car, or just a dash with a VIN on it and a title.

Actually, I would have figured that out before the purchase.

Is there a fender tag?

What is the VIN on the fender tag?

Partial VIN on the radiator core support?

Is the car a '69 or a '70 ?  

[moparstuart]

If you've got multiple VIN numbers on the same car, you've got multiple problems.  

First, I'd figure out if you bought a car, or just a dash with a VIN on it and a title.

Actually, I would have figured that out before the purchase.

Is there a fender tag?

What is the VIN on the fender tag?

Partial VIN on the radiator core support?

Is the car a '69 or a '70 ?  

He did ok  , even if he just bought parts   

[Alaskan_TA]

Then he checks the VIN under the rear molding it does not match the VIN last numbers are 32508 not even close to the VIN,

Keep looking. The body number should be two digits (one letter & one number) then a space then six more numbers for 8 digits total - not 5.

Check the numbers on the radiator support also.

[DAY CLONA]

If you've got multiple VIN numbers on the same car, you've got multiple problems.  

First, I'd figure out if you bought a car, or just a dash with a VIN on it and a title.

Actually, I would have figured that out before the purchase.

Is there a fender tag?

What is the VIN on the fender tag?

Partial VIN on the radiator core support?

Is the car a '69 or a '70 ?  

He did ok  , even if he just bought parts   

Agreed! hell of a deal, nice car, as long as he has a CLEAR title, he can make what numbers he needs, to match the paperwork... A vehicle is lawfully defined by it's paperwork, nothing more, nothing less, cross the "t's" and dot the "i's", and there's nothing to worry about

[kevs1969daytona]

The car was originally a USA car and never been registered in Canada.  I checked that out already. You can barely see but 32508 is stamped on the rear molding rail but the VIN is clearly different.  Someone has cut ot holes underneath the nose cone for cooling .  The wing has 4 large Bolt hidden under the Dynamat sound deadening stuff that has crack all the paint in the entire back of the car. The front fenders are super solid no rust but don't match any charger I have seen. I'm not to worried about the title we don't have "titles" in Canada I also have a dealers plate I can use from my business.

[kevs1969daytona]

Heres a pic of inside the nose cone every thing is metal.  Thanks for all the responses at least know one has called me an idiot for getting it.  I really like this car.    Since i  have had the car, I had to put on the engine pulleys, mount the alternator, power steering pump, bleed the brakes, mount the torque converter to the flex plate, put in the starter, mount the battery stand, when I put coolant in it it started to leak because one of the bolt in the exhaust manifold was missing, hook up the water temp sensor, oil pressure gauge, pull all the spark plugs, replace the carburetor, hook up the exhaust to the manifold.  cut my knuckles a few hundred times, spent about 40 hours under the car.  My dad is coming over tomorrow to try and get her started, Crossing my fingers with a fire extinguisher next to me.  

[FJMG]

Looks like a good buy to me, what part of canada?

[kevs1969daytona]

Heres some pics of the interior needs 69 seats and a woodgrain steering wheel, but the interior is actually in amazing shape.  I also washed 10 years of dust off last night. She actually looks pretty good some rust underneath and cracks in the back from the wing.  Have a Mopar guy who owns a body shop here in Edmonton, Alberta say will do the whole car for $16000 cdn

[nascarxx29]

good looking car

[Daytona R/T SE]

Can you post a picture of the back window?

[odcics2]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the missing opening in the leading edge of the cone! 

[70 sublime]

So the back wing does not have any braces inside the trunk but just bolts down through the 1/4 ?

[kevs1969daytona]

Yes no braces guess I need to get some or the paint will break again, any ideas were to get these braces ??.  Heres a photo of the back window.  There a pic of the inside of the cone, that looks like a grill of some sort, Is that what they look like?  Anyone know if back in the day you could actually race a car at Daytona other than actual NASCAR of course.

[charger chris]

Hello
  That is a very nice car. Well if this was retag. One the holes on the fire wall are different then 70 two there are a set of vin numbers stamp in the rear frame rail on the passenger side. That's for 69 I'm not sure about 70 haven't look on my 70.  Very interesting reading.

[70 sublime]

Still hard to tell from that angle
Glass looks to be mounted a little high by how much panel seems to be between glass and trunk lid

Vega is more square at the top corners and rounded corners at the bottom where a Daytona glass is the other way around

[white]

From the picture it looks like they might have used a stock rear window in the plug.

[Lighthorseman]

Just wondering...is this the one from the Breton, Alberta, area?  I recall looking at that one, as well as his B5 Bird.

[kevs1969daytona]

No its was in a trailer in Red Deer for 10 years and was in Calgary before  that.  Something also weird is that the entire floor has that dynamat under the seats, it says it has overdrive on the centreconsle gear selector,  and found a set of air shock on both the front and back suspension.  

[DAY CLONA]

I recall the car now....steel fabricated nose, IIRC the rear wing is the early solid aluminum repro, and the stock 68-70 rear window mounted slightly higher to create a steel rear plug

[kevs1969daytona]

Thats the one tell me the history please   The antenna is straight now lol  Any sughestions were I could buy the opening and signal lights to drive the thing legally on the road.  Cheers

[odcics2]

Nice project, not a lot needed...

[DAY CLONA]

 Any sughestions were I could buy the opening and signal lights to drive the thing legally on the road.  Cheers

You'll have to create the grille opening with a recessed flange to accept a Daytona grille frame, the original turn signals used are 1969 Plymouth Valiant units, but you'll need to straighten out that homemade brew assembly you have inside that nosecone first...so that it looks more like this when you reassemble the nosecone

[DAY CLONA]

69 Plymouth Valiant front directions, if you find a set, new lenses are available from Laysons

[Lighthorseman]

No its was in a trailer in Red Deer for 10 years and was in Calgary before  that...

That's a bit strange, because I looked at this car in Breton.  I took a couple dozen pictures, as well as video.  Ill see if I can find them.

[70 sublime]

There is a thread on here someplace about this black car when it was for sale a couple years ago

Talked about the Charger back window glass and not a Daytona glass

[70 sublime]

Found it

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,121406.0.html

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,103786.msg1231705.html#msg1231705

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,105047.0.html

[70 sublime]

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Re: Was there a post about this Daytona clone before
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2013, 10:09:48 PM »
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Well, got out there and talked to him.  Nice guy, but a bit of an odd duck.  He said he has the two wing cars for sale because he wants to use the money to build a house.  I got there, and he showed me to a fairly rickety 2 car garage.  Inside - how cool is it to see TWO tails?  Pretty cool.  So, I asked if we could move it out into the sun, and he said he had the battery disconnected, and would not hook it up to see if lights, etc. worked, nor would he push it out of the dark garage.  There were mousetraps everywhere, and although the garage had a concrete floor, there would be no way to keep rodents out.  So, I did the best I could with the car inside.

Initially, the car looked really cool.  Heck - what wing car doesn't? 

CAVEAT!!
Please keep in mind that I don't even know enough to be dangerous!!

As I looked closer, many things came into focus.
I asked as many questions as I could think of, and here, in point form, are things I got from him:

- He did not put the car together.  He got it as it sits now.
- Claimed it came from a guy nearby, who got it from the guy who built it, who conveniently lives in Florida.
- Has no idea how the back window was made, or if it is metal, fibreglass...or even 50 gallons of Bondo.  We measured the back window, and it is the same size as the back glass on his '68 project.
- He had the battery disconnected, and would not hook it up to see if lights, etc. worked, nor would he push it out of the dark garage.
- He says he's had it for about a year - and he hasn't even taken it out for a drive.  How the hell can one have a wing car in the garage and NOT take it out for a spin?  Is that a red flag to you?
- Many questions I asked got a shrug and an "I dunno", or he simply said that he got the car like that.

  So...looking at the car from front to rear:
- Fibreglass nose, Z-braces, fender extensions, lower valence, and fender scoops.
- Nose does NOT have the correct grille opening.  There is only a small opening on the bottom rear of the nose.
- Headlights do not work.
- Metal '70 fenders and hood.
- No top holes for "tire clearance!" in the fenders.
- Interior looks nice with buckets, console, rallye dash (with tic-toc-tach).
- Sound deadener glued to the floor under the carpets.  Couldn't pull it up anywhere to see the state of the floorpans.
- Headliner looks nice.
- Doors appear to be nice and clean.  No rust noted, and they closed well.
- Manual windows, no air.
- Thumbwheel radio.
- Back glass area headliner falling off.
- Bubbles in the paint near the rear window.
- "Orange peel" most everywhere - especially in the tail and trunk area.
- Dual fuel fillers not functional.
- Large bubble in paint on passenger side sailpanel.
- Looks very much like a stock Charger back window.
- Cracks on both sides of the lower back deck near the trunk lid.
- Trunk has scraped paint off the centre of the decklid.
- Trunk lid does not stay up - it has to be propped open.
- Again, heavily glued sound deadener negates the ability to look at the trunk pan.
- There is some sort of plywood panel just behind the back seat.
- Appears to have a REAL metal tail.
- Taillight on the driver's side not secured properly.

   Underside:
- Scary looking rust on the front driver's side frame rail.
- VERY heavy coat of rustproofing does not allow inspection of floor pans.
- Newer looking fuel tank.
- Rear frame rails looked fine to me.
- Could not see trunk pan.
- Lower rear quarters rusty and bubbly on the bottom.


Overall, it looks really good.  Not great, but nice.  It certainly looks solid enough to drive to me, but please remember the caveat!  It would require an EXPERT to have a very close look at the frame rails for sure.  I have no idea what one would realistically pay for this, but I would want a really good idea of how much work I'm really in for if I took this on.

If I can ever get pictures to upload, I will post them.  I'm sure there's stuff that I forgot, so if anyone has questions, just fire away and I'll wrack my brain for an answer.

[70 sublime]

Seems to be the same car but not all of the story you were told is true 

[kevs1969daytona]

That's the car in my garage, can tell thats the guy who sold it to me, tell by his Blue and White 06 Viper, the seller told me it was from a friend how got it out of Florida, told me it actually raced at Daytona kinda like weekend warrior kind of thing.  Again I took it with a grain of salt. Today I have put the entire car together.  I have been on vacation for a few weeks so in the last 9 days, I have done the following, get new battery, replace idle arm, put alternator, brackets, pulleys on, hooked up exhaust to exhaust manifolds, installed a carburetor, hooked up gas pedal, hooked up tranny kick down rods.  Bleed from cut knuckles, almost forgot my wifes birthday, spent all day on ignition system. hooked flex plate to tranny,  bleed brakes, filled entire radiator then it started leaking from a loose manifold screw, spilled about 1/2 liter of oil over manifold when I slipped. Pushed it out of the garage twice to wash it. Finally today with the help of my son with a wet towel and garden hose on standy by, crossed my fingers,  I was able to start the car, runs like crap, thinks it needs a new carb, but motor has no knocks, does not blow blue.  So I am happy so far.  Once its ready it's off to the restoration/body shop to get road worthy.  Thanks everyone for your input.  Thanks 70 sublime for your history lesson, guy wanted $69000 USA a few years ago.  Think $35000 with 2 engine was a good deal. much appreciated cheers   Ok so the rear window is not "correct" should I spend another $4000 to change to to the correct size is it worth it ? If yes does anyone have the measurements from the top of the trunk lid to the window lip and what type of window needs to be in it.

[charger chris]

If you like the car the way it is . Then leave it the way it is. I think you got a hell of a deal on this car. I wish I had that kind of money laying around and ran across a deal like that. But hell I am happy with what I am doing on my stuff. It's your car make it the way you want it. That's why charger still around because we wanted them and we fixed them up and take care them. That's why they are still here to ride in. If I am wrong for saying what I said please let me know. I love these and hope people find them and fix them. 

[Charger_Fan]

If you like the car the way it is . Then leave it the way it is.

But if you do, prepare to answer questions about the incorrect (for a Daytona) rear window practically every time you take it out. If you do want to have it done correctly, here's a couple threads that will show you what's involved...
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,107453.0.html
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,10669.0.html

Also, I would definitely advise in getting some rear wing brackets, so the wing won't bend & flex your rear quarters.

On another note, does it have a driver's door sticker similar to this? If so, what's the VIN on that sticker?

[DAY CLONA]

  Ok so the rear window is not "correct" should I spend another $4000 to change to to the correct size is it worth it ? If yes does anyone have the measurements from the top of the trunk lid to the window lip and what type of window needs to be in it.

Depending on how anal to details you are?, you have several alternatives, The rear window does look funky IMHO, you can spend $4-$5K to put in a repro Daytona steel plug and repro glass/trim, or you can do the Chevy Vega/Pontiac Astre rear window conversion, or you can rework what you have and drop the glass down in the opening?... the STOCK Daytona glass location measurements are: 3 3/4" inches from the top of the STOCK Charger top opening to the top of the glass opening, and 12"-12 1/2" from the bottom of the dutchman/trunk seam, to the bottom of the rear window opening, the STOCK Daytona glass is approx 26" in height, the STOCK Daytona trunk lid is approx 21 1/2" along either edge, and 22 1/2"-22 3/4" in the center, measure what you have and adjust accordingly

Mike

[kevs1969daytona]

So today I finally got the engine going, has a clank at 2000 rpm, hope its just the top end cross my fingers, oh well, anyways, I checked the body again with a magnet and really all metal, even below the back window, some small area of bondo, but feeling confindent it's goin turn out ok without a ton of new panels. Kinda cool I went to get a extra set of keys cut, and remember the guy (seller)  said it was out of Florida "raced at Daytona" he told me,  ya what ever I thought,  Well under the super dirty key chain I found this, says W.P.B. FL  Dannys dealer supplies, that's almost 3000 miles from where I live, in the Cold North, below zero 6 months a year, think I hear the car asking to go back to the beach.  What a history this car must have seen. If you live in W.P.B. please go by and ask Danny about my car

[kevs1969daytona]

So after 17 years I am selling my 70 R/T been a very good car, never let me down, need some of the money for the Daytona.  Kinda bitter sweet, Guess my wife is right she needs a place to park in the winter,  .  I took the Daytona into Sherwood Park today.  I have never had so many people lose their "poop" on a car, my 70 was kinda over the top, but this new car is almost annoying, I went into Canadian Tire store came out there was 2 guys taking photos, I drove to and from home maybe 7 thumbs up, would have maybe 1 with the 70, kinda thought most people would think a car with that big wing actually never existed.  Maybe I was wrong.  

[kevs1969daytona]

Bad news went to a engine/speed shop have a bad rod, need complete rebuild  

[Lighthorseman]

...I took the Daytona into Sherwood Park today...  

If you're in this area, keep your eyes peeled for an R4 red Daytona.  Shows up occasionally at the Tuesday night meet at Timmy's on Wye, and the Friday meet at White Oaks.

[aerolith]

Your Daytona looks great Kev!

I should think the motor got overheated with the lack of grille openings?
The UK 440ci Jensens suffered tremendously with overheat gremlins and bearing failure.
(I have a couple of 1970 date coded 440's here but they are race spec and 5000 miles away.)

I'm sure you can sort the motor real quick if there is no crank damage?

Good luck with the Daytona, as she is SWEET!!!

Aerolite

[kevs1969daytona]

Not too sure if the crank is toast the motor guy just took it around the block said it's a bad rod. Oil Pressure is 35psi  at 2000 rmp when hot.  I have another 440 in pieces and a 413 in pieces as well that came with the Daytona, not too sure if I should gon with the 70 block or 73 that's already in it. heres a youtube video of the bad engine in the car.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WcqoH54m-A&feature=em-upload_owner

[Daytona R/T SE]

Sounds more like a clatter than a knock to me.

A bad rod bearing has a deep thunk! thunk! sound to it.

The "Motor Guy" might just be out to make a buck off of you.

35 psi hot isn't that bad.

You could have a bad lifter, or a pushrod may be shoving it's way through a rocker arm.

Or one of the pushrods could be bent.

I'd pull the valve covers off and check things out.  

[kevs1969daytona]

Had another engine guy come by, says when it revs the oil pressure goes down, or fluctuates which means she about to turn into a hand grenade, throw a rod.  If I take the value covers off and remove the " rocker arm bar" sorry if that not correct way of saying this. Is it simple as tightening snug back on after I roll the push rod on a straight surface such as  glass ??.  Starts fine, no knock unless under load as per the video.

Heres another video close up, sorry its my 16 yr old son filming engine sound like crap.  Turning into a hang grenade.  FYI when I was in the Army always pull the grenade from the pin, not the pin from the grenade, or there might be a problem.  LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60pNiSc6nAw&feature=em-upload_owner

[alfaitalia]

Not the best sound quality...at least on my PC speakers.....but as said above, nothing there sounded "heavy" enough to be rod knock to my ears.

[70 sublime]

Think I would try taking all the belts off the front and see if you can make it make the same sound
Would eliminate a few other things to check

[tan top]

  through my computer speakers , sounds like a rod bearing knock  

[Aero426]

There is a reason it was sold with the engine not running and vague answers to questions,

[aerolith]

Hi kev,

Deffo sounds like rod knock!
Put the microphone on the floor near the oilpan, that will pick up the knock better.
I had a guy drive over to my place once with 'rod-knock', for me to have a listen too, big mistake!
It was only a mile but that was enough to wreck the crankshaft into a scrap piece!
Do not run the engine anymore, it will be getting worse by the minute, NO, by the SECOND!!!

Low oil pressure at idle is ok, but it should go up to 60+lbs at 2000 rpm.

413 is a truck motor at best (except 1962 block), but a 70 440 block is a super-rare piece indeed, its a no-brainer...

Aerlithic

[Moparsaver]

Definitely a lower end noise.    And yes it will get worse ... Then be a catastrophic failure if you let it get that far.      Please don't ask how I know.   

[kevs1969daytona]

Thanks for the advice I have pulled the battery cable no more running the engine I will tow it to the engine shop.

[Daytona R/T SE]

Thanks for the advice I have pulled the battery cable no more running the engine I will tow it to the engine shop.

I'd still take the valve covers off and have a look.

Eliminate the simple/cheap possibilities first,

Before you start writing big checks to the "engine shop"

The 440 in my Imperial made one hell of a racket after I backed off after passing a car at wide open throttle.

I thought I hurt it...BAD.

Come to find out one of the lifters had stuck, allowing the pushrod to jump around and make all kinds of noise.

Pull the valve covers and take a look.

It's free and you just might save a few thousand bucks...

[kevs1969daytona]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9LcttS5FFY

Is this normal for these heads and rockers

[A383Wing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9LcttS5FFY

Is this normal for these heads and rockers

yes

[Highbanked Hauler]

"Then he checks the VIN under the rear molding it does not match the VIN last numbers are 32508 not even close to the VIN"

You need to find out why.   

Possible used quarter or trunk channel. Mine has used quarters on it but I never welded the original  numbers back in.

[djcarguy]

 

[THE CHARGER PUNK]

This car was on Kijiji for over a few year for 30k it's got a home made nose cone & wing and has a custom plug mounted too high up. I had a friend check it out and the rear frame rails are rusty. It's a good 10footer.

[kevs1969daytona]

its at the body ahop now getting completely redone wit proper back window.   https://www.facebook.com/anythingmuscle/

[alfaitalia]

its at the body ahop now getting completely redone wit proper back window.   https://www.facebook.com/anythingmuscle/

Cool....the way he wrote the comments , its almost as if he thinks its the real thing!

[Alaskan_TA]

Then he checks the VIN under the rear molding it does not match the VIN last numbers are 32508 not even close to the VIN, which according to him the dash was replaced .  

Any news on the dash VIN not matching the body numbers?

[kevs1969daytona]

Yea replaced the quarters last year no more second VIN

[Alaskan_TA]

Yea replaced the quarters last year no more second VIN

Wow.