Need Help Understanding Something.

[70ChargerX2]

Okay Y'all I want to start this conversation by saying a few things first.
I like all of you here am a die hard Charger guy and I have been blessed with my share of owning them when they were much easier to get and a lot less money. I have owned 3 68's, a 69, 2 70's, and a 72 so I am no stranger to these cars but I will admit I don't know every nut bolt and screw that goes in them.  I know a lot of them but not all !!  I do know also what is right or wrong when they are mixed years and I get pissed off at the silly and sometimes stupid things that people do to them. 
This brings me to my question and some of you may ask yourselves why am I even asking this if I am a Charger guy ?  Be gentle with me guys because again I love these cars as much as y'all do and I will never regret anything more in my life than selling my 1st 70. 
I go on Ebay every day to see whats out there and to add pictures to my Charger collection for the fun of it, for reference, and just for the love of the car but when I ran across this most recent listing for a rust bomb numbers matching 70 I had to ask you guys this.
Why would this car that will need most likely 20 to 25 grand to bring back to life be selling for $5000 just because it has matching numbers ?  I understand the " Numbers Matching" thing being important to some but when this car will need a complete restoration where is the value coming from?. It wont have half the factory sheet metal left in it or the original top or door panels plus all the other hidden things needing to be replaced so again why should it be so valuable at this point?
If it had a Hemi and a 4 speed maybe that $5.000 is more realistic but again once it gets all the body work done and interior work not to mention the underside that needs a lot of help the only original things will be the engine trans reared glass and so on.
To me a numbers matching car means it is all original or mostly original and those are the ones that hold the value and are really rare. Maybe because I have had as many of them as I have and would love to have another one, maybe  what is important to me like all the parts are on it, it runs but might need a little help and hasn't had the shit kicked out of it are where the value is ?  I don't know maybe some guys see them as an investment but I see it for what it is and that is one bad ass beautifully designed real Detroit Muscle car.
Maybe it is because I was born and raised on Mopars and my dad was a model maker for Chrysler for 35 years?  Maybe because I am originally from the Detroit area where a lot of them were born?  Or lastly is it that I am one of the few that can say there first car they bought at 18 with there own money was a 68 Charger ?  The 68 thru 70 are my favorite years with the 70 at the top of that list.  I do know this..... there is never going to be a car I would rather own or will ever replace the 70 Charger in my world. I do like the 71 thu 74's a lot as well and as far as I am concerned the 74 was the last year for the " Real Chargers"
Okay so now that I have opened the can of worms I will put the listing number for this car at the end of this and you guys help me understand why you or anyone else would lay down a starting bid of $5.000 knowing full well it's going to take one hell of a lot more to make something out of it.  Here is the listing #  272783612130  If for some reason that wont work go to Ebay and look for this car you cant miss it.
Not trying to start a pissing contest just trying to understand.
Paulie

[darbgnik]

I don't know..... That car needs a whole lot of everything. The pictures lost me at frame rails.....

Numbers matching on this car would be worth something I think if it were a true survivor, which this one isn't. Typically high dollar numbers matching cars are the ones that are the most desirable, like R/T's and even more so with R/T's with rare options, like 6 packs and Hemis.

Sure this is a big block car, but it's not the performance variant. Maybe a close inspection would reveal 5000 dollars worth of parts, but I wouldn't pay it. I'd rather pay 3 times as much for something that a cat can't crawl through.  

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-Dodge-Charger-500-/272783612130?hash=item3f832b98e2:g:UF8AAOSw5n5Zfear&vxp=mtr

[lukedukem]

Okay so now that I have opened the can of worms I will put the listing number for this car at the end of this and you guys help me understand why you or anyone else would lay down a starting bid of $5.000 knowing full well it's going to take one hell of a lot more to make something out of it.  Here is the listing #  272783612130  If for some reason that wont work go to Ebay and look for this car you cant miss it.
Not trying to start a pissing contest just trying to understand.
Paulie

Not me but someone that would lay that kinda money down doesn't have a clue what it takes to restore one of these.
They are dreamers who will buy it and let it sit once they realize. That car is worth maybe 2k for parts and that's probably what the guy paid for it. But if someone had the money and didn't care to pay a shop, then it's perfect for them. And that's what the seller is banking on. An idiot
I did my research and read and listened to the guys on here and saved to buy one that was done, somewhat.
I had to make it my own and change some things. But it was worth it.

Luke

[crj1968]

Better off to spend $25-30K on good car you can enjoy now... then spend 25-40K on that to hopefully enjoy in 2 years.   

[Kern Dog]

2 years? Uhhh...10-15 years maybe!

[crj1968]

2 years? Uhhh...10-15 years maybe!

Truth

2 years (optimistic) if you pay someone 40K (optimistic) to do it for you.

[6bblgt]

maybe he priced it high enough to get a buyer who wouldn't part it out - thinking they all should be saved  

if someone needs a bunch of the parts there - it might be worth the $5K
383HP, manifolds & trans
3.23 sure-grip
big block b-body A/C parts & tinted windows
cruise control parts
power window parts
rallye cluster, 8-track w/rear fader & wood grain
'70 b-body power disc brakes
'70 bucket seat cores & 6-way seat
intact grill & headlight motor
deluxe seat belts
rim blow steering wheel
bumper jack
wonder if the locking gas cap is still there?

IMO too rusty to save, but a great parts car!!

[VegasCharger]

No way would I buy this car to bring it back to it's glory but if I could get this 70 Charger to my door step for 5K (meaning if it was in my area and me towing it home, in this case that wouldn't apply) I would buy it for the pure profit of parting it out.

As 6bblgt mentioned, there are many good parts on this Charger, high dollar parts IMO.



EDIT: This is an auction meaning that no way that this will hold up at 5k in fact it's at $5100.00 with 5 days to go. So toss out my theories of it being a parts car. 

Someone will buy this car for the numbers and have an inventory of parts for the re-body.

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[70 sublime]

That car would easily sell for $10 000 Canadian if it was up here in Ontario in less than an hour of being posted for sale

[Tilar]

Wow, that is ironic.... the best looking thing on the car is the build sheet.

[alfaitalia]

Just go to the "delusional" thread.....you will find a lot worse for a lot more!! Same is our Canadian friend said.....it would sell for lots more if it was here in the UK....despite being a 70! 

[Challenger340]

The rust on that '70 is ridiculous, IMO.

I think the "numbers matching" thing is a nice to have on any example, but valued differently across the wide spectrum of Car conditions as they present.

That said,
obviously on that '70 it doesn't much matter what "matches", IMO it is a parts car only !

whereas comparatively,
"Numbers Matching" on a '69 R/T SE in good shape, with the original UN-Rebuilt #'s Engine(still running great), Original Exhaust, and UN-restored body in equally great shape... can be quite an intangible to pricing ?

[fc7_plumcrazy]

someone who will buy it will probably NOT restore it in reality.

It will be sitting in his garage. It is like a dream come true.
The buyer will have a "vision" of how it should look like one day. He will start buying parts. Collecting stuff.
For his dream. For his soul. His Karma.

If he goes to car shows he can say "I have got a a Charger project going on".

The car itself will probably not be redone (finalized being ON the street) as there will probably never be enough money to finish it or he realizes he could have a better car for less and sells it to the next guy with a vision.

Just realize it.
It is the same with a lot of guys who have tons of projectcars but haven't done anything yet with them in decades.
They all hope "one day".
Somewhere in their sixties or seventies they realize it won't happen anymore.

So there is nothing wrong with buying a personal project car if it makes someone happy

Carsten

[Wingnut426]

A little off topic, did all Canadian cars come with the "MADE IN USA" tag like the one attached to the hood latch support of this 70 Charger?

[Troy]

That thing appears to be loaded! I mean, numbers matching on a highly optioned car is definitely worth something. As mentioned, the parts are fairly desirable even if someone had no plans of restoring the car. Considering a lot of trash with no options and few usable parts at all sells for close to that amount I can see this one being an exception. But, as we all (ok, most of us) know, the 70 only parts that it does need are rare and expensive themselves. With what it is, I can't imagine the overall value when complete will come anywhere close to what it will cost to get it there. Someone may buy it with the intention of restoring it but they will likely bail at some point so I hope they don't overpay too much.

Troy

[Dreamcar]

I myself bought a rusty non-running non-RT "numbers matching" Charger that in your eyes is not worth 5K because it needs years of work. Here's why and some of my thoughts on the issue:

- It's still has its original drive-train, and to ME that's worth something;
- I couldn't afford nor did I want to drop 25-30k in one shot for a car I knew nothing about. I'm paying for it as I go when I decide I can. Furthermore, by watching the work being done, I know how the work is being done and by whom.
- I get to build something with my own hands (at least partially) and not pay the entire project out of pocket. That to ME it is worth something and gives a sense of pride. I also don't have other hobbies I'm putting money into. It's a hobby that keeps me home.
- I get to save a classic car that would have otherwise become recycled eventually.  
- Someone commented about "dreamers" who don't finish the project...Mine is well underway, it won't take 15 years. I've wanted to do it for the challenge and I'm doing it now nights and weekends when I can.
- I'm in Canada...2nd gens to pop up as often as they do down south of the border.
- The market dictates the price based on supply and demand, so if the 5k rusty car sells (i'm sure it will), there are more people that think its worth it than those that don't.
- Someone mentioned not having a "clue" about what it takes to restore these...I have a clue and decided (for the reasons above) that I still wanted to do it.  
- If nobody paid to save the rusty ones, there wouldn't be any restored cars and the survivors would cost 2-3x as much. The aftermarket/repro market would not be as healthy as it is either.

Signed...someone with a rusty restoration under way and who probably paid "too much $".  

[6bblgt]

A little off topic, did all Canadian cars come with the "MADE IN USA" tag like the one attached to the hood latch support of this 70 Charger?

"MADE In USA" tag is usually only found on Y09 "EXPOT" cars - it would be odd to find one originally installed on Y05 "USA" (like this one) or Y07 "CANADA" car

but with an aftermarket radiator & white overspray on the hood latches - there might have been an accident that required some parts changes

it was also built ~3 weeks late   things that make you go  

[JB400]

We've seen worse cars on here being saved by members.  Why not at least dismantle it, and then face reality?

[VegasCharger]

Time to up the ante and quit referring this topic as a 5K Charger. This is an auction and not even half way through.

$6000.00 as of 8-2-17 5:03 am PST.

[Lennard]

I myself bought a rusty non-running non-RT "numbers matching" Charger that in your eyes is not worth 5K because it needs years of work. Here's why and some of my thoughts on the issue:

- It's still has its original drive-train, and to ME that's worth something;
- I couldn't afford nor did I want to drop 25-30k in one shot for a car I knew nothing about. I'm paying for it as I go when I decide I can. Furthermore, by watching the work being done, I know how the work is being done and by whom.
- I get to build something with my own hands (at least partially) and not pay the entire project out of pocket. That to ME it is worth something and gives a sense of pride. I also don't have other hobbies I'm putting money into. It's a hobby that keeps me home.
- I get to save a classic car that would have otherwise become recycled eventually.  
- Someone commented about "dreamers" who don't finish the project...Mine is well underway, it won't take 15 years. I've wanted to do it for the challenge and I'm doing it now nights and weekends when I can.
- I'm in Canada...2nd gens to pop up as often as they do down south of the border.
- The market dictates the price based on supply and demand, so if the 5k rusty car sells (i'm sure it will), there are more people that think its worth it than those that don't.
- Someone mentioned not having a "clue" about what it takes to restore these...I have a clue and decided (for the reasons above) that I still wanted to do it.  
- If nobody paid to save the rusty ones, there wouldn't be any restored cars and the survivors would cost 2-3x as much. The aftermarket/repro market would not be as healthy as it is either.

Signed...someone with a rusty restoration under way and who probably paid "too much $".  

It doesn't matter if other people understand why. The only person that needs to understand why, is you. Some things that happen in life make no sense....but happen anyway. I'm in the same situation as you, and I don't have to justify to anyone what I do with my time and money.

[66FBCharger]

I myself bought a rusty non-running non-RT "numbers matching" Charger that in your eyes is not worth 5K because it needs years of work. Here's why and some of my thoughts on the issue:

- It's still has its original drive-train, and to ME that's worth something;
- I couldn't afford nor did I want to drop 25-30k in one shot for a car I knew nothing about. I'm paying for it as I go when I decide I can. Furthermore, by watching the work being done, I know how the work is being done and by whom.
- I get to build something with my own hands (at least partially) and not pay the entire project out of pocket. That to ME it is worth something and gives a sense of pride. I also don't have other hobbies I'm putting money into. It's a hobby that keeps me home.
- I get to save a classic car that would have otherwise become recycled eventually. 
- Someone commented about "dreamers" who don't finish the project...Mine is well underway, it won't take 15 years. I've wanted to do it for the challenge and I'm doing it now nights and weekends when I can.
- I'm in Canada...2nd gens to pop up as often as they do down south of the border.
- The market dictates the price based on supply and demand, so if the 5k rusty car sells (i'm sure it will), there are more people that think its worth it than those that don't.
- Someone mentioned not having a "clue" about what it takes to restore these...I have a clue and decided (for the reasons above) that I still wanted to do it. 
- If nobody paid to save the rusty ones, there wouldn't be any restored cars and the survivors would cost 2-3x as much. The aftermarket/repro market would not be as healthy as it is either.

Signed...someone with a rusty restoration under way and who probably paid "too much $". 

My thoughts, exactly.