Production number clarification for '69 Charger 500 and '69 Charger Daytona

[Aero426]

Without the nose and wing, the 500, Talladega and Cyclone Spoiler look just like a regular car.   Even a non-car person can look at a winged car and see it might be something special.   Charger 500 owners can attest to that guy who comes up at a show and says,  "I used to have a 69 Charger back in the day. But it didn't have headlights like that".      

Amen to that.  90% of the people who approach me at an all-make car show have no ideal what a Charger 500 is.  Observant ones ask why it looks like a '68 from the front and a '69 from the rear.

Generally when someone asks if its real, they are wondering if its a real General Lee because of the orange paint job.

Then the spectator walks to the back of the car:   "And my back window wasn't like that either!"

[richRTSE]

Shown here is a telegram dated January 23 1969 from NASCAR's Bill France Sr. to Ford Racing Boss Jacque Passino.    What this is likely about, is that Passino is questioning whether Dodge has really built at least 500 examples of the Charger 500.   Bill France is replying and indicating he has reviewed the list of 540 Charger 500 cars, and called various dealers.    He determined that the cars actually were available in the field and went so far as to give a specific dealer and price in nearby Toledo Ohio, along with an offer to purchase the car to prove it.

Until the actual list is revealed, a lot of speculation will remain...you are probably right in your assumptions, but a doubting Thomas could say he really meant to say he reviewed the list of 440 Charger 500 cars...you know because they were originally only going to be hemi cars....the 540 is a typo...he doesn't mention a hemi 500 being available...only a 440 being available....you can't say they wouldn't have a typo like that when they can't even spell the guy's name right who the letter is going to...Jacque or Ajcque  Passino? I like the 392 number better but it is probably wrong....lets see the list already.....

[Aero426]

Until the actual list is revealed, a lot of speculation will remain...you are probably right in your assumptions, but a doubting Thomas could say he really meant to say he reviewed the list of 440 Charger 500 cars...you know because they were originally only going to be hemi cars....the 540 is a typo...he doesn't mention a hemi 500 being available...only a 440 being available....you can't say they wouldn't have a typo like that when they can't even spell the guy's name right who the letter is going to...Jacque or Ajcque  Passino? I like the 392 number better but it is probably wrong....lets see the list already.....

You are absolutely right.    These days, it seems there is a lot of "reading into" what someone "might have meant" in what was intended to be a throw away document.   

Fortunately for us, the telegram was saved by Ford stock car racing exec Charlie Gray and wound up in the Ford archives in Detroit when he retired.      Mark Moses who founded the Talladega Registry book found it digging through the paperwork.     Ironically, the Ford archives were downsized significantly by a building move several years ago.   ALL the 1960's racing stuff (many file cabinets) went to GT40 man Mike Teske in Tennessee.    Had Mike not been there, who knows what would have happened to it.   It's just old junk, right?   

[Dragon Slayer]

Quote from: Dragon Slayer on Today at 04:20:15 AM
Here is my hypothesis on this issue, would appreciate thoughts and feed back:

The public C500 registry has about 305, but not all cars fully documented and some may not be survivors

305 known Charger 500 cars today?    That sounds artificially high.

Looking back at other statements that have been made on this site, GG has said to a member that he has copies of VINs or Build Sheets on 255 cars.

The person I consider to have the most credible, personal, knowledgeable of actual cars (69_500) last said on this site that he has data on 291 cars (as of Jan 2015). This does include a handful of known scrapped cars, so I believe the credible number of cars known, still existing, and could be proven by any one person is around 280+/-.

Funny that GG only use 114 on his letter to owner as of Nov16.  

I have no knowledge on the subject how many were made but need to clarify this point. When Galen puts a number in a vehicle inspection report it says something like "of 114 known to exist". This means the number he, personally, has seen/inspected. It does NOT mean total known to exist by everyone ever. It's a very important distinction! He may have "knowledge" of over 200 cars through stories or browsing the internet but he's not going to stake his reputation that they are verified. That's why there are discrepancies when someone claims their car is "1 of 3" - and leave off the "known to exist" so it becomes "known to be produced". It certainly muddies things up though because the next 500 he sees will be "of 115 known to exist" and that owner will stick it on a show board and brag about it to anyone who will listen.

Troy

I assume this is all assumption on your part?  GG has produced letters for cars sight unseen.  I have seen a U code Superbird written up as V code that way and attempted to be passed off by seller as V code.  Vin was clearly U code on dash, and fender tag, but it had a sixpack.  Well know issue by several people who inspected car when it went up for sale.

My car was assigned a delivery dealer on the paper work from GG.  Problem was that dealer did not exist in 1969.  Dodge district manager for our area told me so, and the dealer archives for this area validate that.  When question about this I received a call day later saying it was rumored to be from that dealer.  Yet that was good enough to put on paper.

Hence my whole issue with relying on a secret list held by GG, and whether he worries about his reputation.

[Dragon Slayer]

Clearly they had issues making the deadline you state for NASCAR.  How was this verified, is there a record of when this was done?  There are a few KNOWN cars on the list that did not have  scheduled build date unit Mid DEC.  With the XX Weeks it took to make an RT into a C500 over the Christmas holiday, HOW did they make your 7JAN Deadline?  So again seems hard to believe that they made and NASCAR counted 500 C500 before 7Jan.

   I agree it was a crash program, but it was going to get done whatever it took.   It did not take weeks to convert a car.   Looking at the work to be done and the relative low quality final work produced, it took a couple of days to slam out a car.  They were not built with love!      

I have data on at least 2 Sep07 cars that did not make it to a dealer until 19Dec.  Maybe because NASCAR was counting them, or maybe because it took that long for Creative to finish them, and they did not start the build 07Sep.

Early cars could have been kept around for whatever purpose needed.   Public relations,   a sample reference car.   Who knows?      
There is no evidence that NASCAR ever physically counted the cars in person.   The "list" of cars would have been provided to ACCUS and to NASCAR.     NASCAR could have spot checked the list to make sure the cars existed.  They probably viewed some cars.

My point on XX/XS data is that NASCAR could have been presented XS RT as C500 and would have been hard pressed to tell the difference.

Too few XS VIN cars to worry about.   The reason for the XX in the VIN would have been explained.    Look, these were not ignorant people.  

The early test cars showed deficiencies with aero, seems reasonable you could go short on production, especially if your losing money on it.

What deficiencies are you talking about?    The 500 was a LARGE improvement in performance over the '68 Charger in actual on track testing.      
Again, the cars had to be completed before they ever raced.    There were contracts and agreements with the suppliers and Creative to build the cars.   The parts are all run.    There is no savings in saying,  "Whelp, let's build 100 less."   They were all sunk costs.

What are the weird factors that benefit Wing cars that do not benefit C500 cars?

Without the nose and wing, the 500, Talladega and Cyclone Spoiler look just like a regular car.   Even a non-car person can look at a winged car and see it might be something special.   Charger 500 owners can attest to that guy who comes up at a show and says,  "I used to have a 69 Charger back in the day. But it didn't have headlights like that".      

Thank you for response.  Dodge knew it had issues at higher speeds it would operate on the track.  I guess we will never really know until we get to a number of validated cars and vins at 540, or what ever the number is.

The Ford letter is interesting in that they challenged NASCAR.  Why?  Unless they had reasonable suspicions.  That is the other way to look at it.  Was a pretty snarky answer to the Ford Manager interestingly enough.

So back to this 540 shipping list thing.  Who has a copy besides GG?  Know one kept a copy?

By my own experience, not all cars had a dealer listed on this shipping list, as stated by GG Secretary to me.  It is not as complete as the Daytona list, so Nascar letter to Ford is nothing more then a snarky response as I read it.

[hemigeno]

a doubting Thomas could say he really meant to say he reviewed the list of 440 Charger 500 cars...you know because they were originally only going to be hemi cars....the 540 is a typo...he doesn't mention a hemi 500 being available...only a 440 being available....

I can't imagine Bill France turning a blind eye to a manufacturer falling short of the homologation requirement (which was established as a deterrent for the manufacturers in the first place). 

There was also no reason for Chrysler to segregate their reporting of the C500's produced by engine displacement.  It certainly didn't happen with the Daytona model just a few months later - or the Superbirds either for that matter.

[Aero426]

So back to this 540 shipping list thing.  Who has a copy besides GG?  Know one kept a copy?

As has been mentioned a few times already,  no one other than Galen has a copy of a Charger 500 list that we know of.    There may be other copies, but none are known in the hands of enthusiasts.  

[Aero426]

The Ford letter is interesting in that they challenged NASCAR.  Why?  Unless they had reasonable suspicions.  That is the other way to look at it.  Was a pretty snarky answer to the Ford Manager interestingly enough.

It is not a snarky response at all.    Whatever the question was,   France is replying that he has checked the list,  found cars at all locations he called.   And that he found a Charger 500 in Toledo (just down the road from Ford) if Passino wanted it.    (Ford did get their hands on a street Daytona for wind tunnel purposes).  

It would have been natural for Passino to try and exploit any competitive advantage or question the homologation of the C500.    He certainly questioned whether the Daytona was a 1970 model because it was in the 1970 Dodge Scat Pack magazine insert.    He sent a company letter to France on that one.

[aerolith]

Thanx for the update C5X.

Wouldn't want 663 as thats ends in an odd number and 666 is the Devils work!
248662 is fine by me.

Hunert, if you paint a 68/70 Charger dull red or orange, you is gonna be a 'General' no matter how much you try to tell Folks otherwise...
The General is the famous Dodge of all time, when I drove a friends '69 general' home one day, I had Folks following me and banging on my door for weeks!!!
Orange is the colour of FUN!!!

Aerolith

[5hunert]

 

Thanx for the update C5X.

Wouldn't want 663 as thats ends in an odd number and 666 is the Devils work!
248662 is fine by me.

Hunert, if you paint a 68/70 Charger dull red or orange, you is gonna be a 'General' no matter how much you try to tell Folks otherwise...
The General is the famous Dodge of all time, when I drove a friends '69 general' home one day, I had Folks following me and banging on my door for weeks!!!
Orange is the colour of FUN!!!

Aerolith

[Dragon Slayer]

I guess we will never know.  I do see more Daytona's out and about.  No 69 C500 at Carlisle, unless I missed it.  As far as stories I imagine each can be counter.  I had 3 different friends see my car, and all three knew it was a Charger, and not a basic charger or RT. They knew the lights were different and immediately triggered on the rear window when it was pointed out non verbally.   2 were woman.  But I guess so what.

In the end the actual number won't really be known, but I find it harder to understand how many accept this 540 #, when it seems there is plenty of circumstantial factors to say less.  But it is what it is. G

[Aero426]

The early test cars showed deficiencies with aero, seems reasonable you could go short on production, especially if your losing money on it.

The Charger 500 as first raced picked up 8 mph observed speed over the 1968 Charger the year before, and 10 mph if speeds are corrected for weather conditions.   Baker felt he could race the car comfortably at the max 192 mph observed lap average.    At 187, he said it was "boring to drive".      Some of this was aerodynamics and some was because of the latest chassis design updates and testing tweaks.    But the consensus going into Daytona was that the Charger 500 "would be competitive had good chance of being successful."  

68 Charger - Feb 1968  183.5 mph
69 Charger 500 prototype built on '68 race chassis 186.18 mph  (189.02 corrected)
69 Charger 500 Feb race config on '69 race chassis 192.27 mph (194.10 corrected)  

Corrected speed takes into account weather conditions to give an apples to apples comparison

As you can see, the Charger 500 package provided a significant jump in performance. 

http://aerowarriors.com/cda/cda_09_120968.html

[tan top]

interesting stuff 

[69_500]

Just to throw my 2 cents in. 

248666 as far as I know is a 440 car that was in Texas last I heard.
So it's the highest VIN I know of. No idea what was last built by creative though.
248663 is a black hemi auto on column car.

248662 and 248663 were both at the Mooar Nats in 2005 sitting side by side