Another 440 which parts should i get

[Yada]

I need to get a nice engine in my Charger 70 with automatic 3.23 gears, or i will go nuts soon.

This is what i have laying around and prefer to use it for a street friendly build if possible.
440 block bore 0.60
Performer intake (not RPM)
Edelbrock 750
Edelbrock E-Street 84cc untouched.

I prefer to by a pre balanced rotating assembly and so far i only found 440 source stroker kits that offer balancing, any others alternatives out there?

I prefer to only go smallest possible stroker or stock stroke.

According to 440source their 500 kit on 84cc heads is comp 10.98.

I need suggestions on rotating assembly, cam and converter size/stall that would play nice with pump gas 93 near sea level.

[Scaregrabber]

I think the 500 kit would work well. Don't know how streetable you want or how fast but I would run no bigger than a 2500 stall convertor and a camshaft to match. That would make a real mild combo that would be great on the freeway. I don't like your intake or carb though. To be honest, these days rather than buy a new carb I would plan on fuel injection from the start. If hood clearance is an issue try a Holley Street Dominator intake manifold or a Performer RPM if you have the room. the regular Performer is no better than stock other than weight.

Sheldon

[Yada]

Thank you, i really appreciate your feedback.

As i writing this I'm thinking mostly cruising and family road trips anywhere from 30mph to highway 70mph. But (there is always a but) after some months and at that stoplight beside that other car the devils horns grows out and… you now. I think generally I'm a low rpm high torque is preferred before high rpm hp.

I have already decided on tti 1 7/8” headers with 2,5” x-pipe and flowmaster 50 as it’s family friendly and thats really important.

As i understand converter and cam really needs to match up and be safe for 93 octane but i have no clue how to do it.

Yeah, seen lots of negative info that carb, so i actually been thinking to save up some money and get a proform or a holley sniper EFI. EFI seems easier as it’s self tuned. But i probably need a many more months before i could afford that upgrade.

I will defiantly check out and read up on the intakes.

If i decided to go for any build and use my current intake and carb and later change to better intake and carb or EFI, would that change the cam choice?

Really learning here. Thanks

[Dino]

I had that carb as do many others here, it's pretty useless on a 440. You would need the tuning kit to make it run well. Best thing I did on mine was to get rid of it! If EFI is not yet feasible then yeah get a solid Proform or something.

Honestly, if you build this thing back to stock specs, with the correct CR, then I don't see why you would have to do anything to it. These are pretty powerful cars when in healthy stock form.

[Yada]

Thanks Dino!
I value your inputs and will keep this in mind before i go shopping 

Yes, thats why i wrote in first post stock stroke is ok. But shopping for rotating assembly it looks like it's almost the same cost for stock 440 and 500 stroke, balance cost is the same for both.

Now i'm trying to figure out what dynamic cr to aim for on 93 pump gas. http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/cam-tech-c.htm This looks harder than build a rocket and fly to the moon and back. Hopefully someone that understand this cam vs cr and vp better then me finds this thread.

[Scaregrabber]

You could easily change the intake and carb later. If you need a crankshaft or your crankshaft turned as well as a bore and pistons you might as well go to the 500 incher, it will cost you the same as you have already figured. 1 7/8" headers will work well. I wouldn't go with more than 10.5-1 measured compression ratio and I'm not good on cams so hopefully someone that is will chime in. Yes the compression, convertor, heads, rear axle ratio, exhaust setup etc. all figure into the camshaft selection.

Sheldon

[Dino]

Thanks Dino!
I value your inputs and will keep this in mind before i go shopping 

Yes, thats why i wrote in first post stock stroke is ok. But shopping for rotating assembly it looks like it's almost the same cost for stock 440 and 500 stroke, balance cost is the same for both.

Now i'm trying to figure out what dynamic cr to aim for on 93 pump gas. http://victorylibrary.com/mopar/cam-tech-c.htm This looks harder than build a rocket and fly to the moon and back. Hopefully someone that understand this cam vs cr and vp better then me finds this thread.

Don't get me wrong, if you want to soup it up then go for it! But I find a stock 440 (or near stock) makes for a great cruiser with plenty oomph. And it will be reliable. I find the more you pep it up, the less street friendly it becomes. And then there's cost.

The limitations for going fast are usually more related to the rest of the car: doesn't stop or steer right, bouncy suspension, flexing frame. The usual suspects.   

[Yada]

You could easily change the intake and carb later. If you need a crankshaft or your crankshaft turned as well as a bore and pistons you might as well go to the 500 incher, it will cost you the same as you have already figured. 1 7/8" headers will work well. I wouldn't go with more than 10.5-1 measured compression ratio and I'm not good on cams so hopefully someone that is will chime in. Yes the compression, convertor, heads, rear axle ratio, exhaust setup etc. all figure into the camshaft selection.

Sheldon

Yes i do need to get a crankshaft, thanks.

The limitations for going fast are usually more related to the rest of the car: doesn't stop or steer right, bouncy suspension, flexing frame. The usual suspects.   

No need to be sensible now, plenty of time for that later 

[c00nhunterjoe]

You need to get more specific on the exact manners of the car you prefer. Your idea of street friendly and mine are probably polar opposite. Reading up on dynamic cr is a plus, most people either dont, or dont understand it when making their decisions.
   Are you sticking with the 3.23 gears?
What tires are you going to run- ie stock 14s, drag radials, slicks etc etc.
What suspension will you be using?
What geographic area do you live in?
What idle quality do you want?

Fwiw, the stock build 440 you had started with is not matched well to 1 7/8 headers you said you are already set on using.

[Yada]

Hi c00nhunterjoe

Oh, This is the hardest part for me to describe the manners i want as my native language is Swedish and where i'm from.

I value low rpm at highway for comfort, so i would like to keep 3.23 if possible. Tires thats on the car now is cheap cooper 295/50-15. Next set of tires will probably be bfgoodrich same size. I like how it looks/fits on the car.

For suspension i have not decided yet but some setup with more negative caster than stock and the recommended bilstein shocks in a tread i cant't find just now. Probably won't do extreme race parts. I have 11x3" drums without power assist now and leaning to swap to disks with power assist later, so vacuum is wanted for power brakes later on. There are some great threads here with really nice upgrades. I just need to set my budget for this.

Lopey idle and say somewhere max 1100-1200 rpm is ok, if stock rpm is doable then it's a plus.

Lets say i did by a 500ci stroker kit from ex. hughes then i have 9.6:1, 10.5:1, 11.3:1 and 13.7:1 on 84cc to choose from and no clue which cam is safe for pump gas.
I guess i trying to figure out how much cr i can go for great torque at low rpm on pump gas with the parts i have with vacuum for power brakes. I'm not into high-rpm hp and would easy go for a smaller cam for torque.

What do you mean by 1 7/8 headers is wrong. Bigger, smaller or not headers at all? Please explain, learning here.

[firefighter3931]

I value low rpm at highway for comfort, so i would like to keep 3.23 if possible. Tires thats on the car now is cheap cooper 295/50-15. Next set of tires will probably be bfgoodrich same size. I like how it looks/fits on the car.


Lopey idle and say somewhere max 1100-1200 rpm is ok, if stock rpm is doable then it's a plus.

Lets say i did by a 500ci stroker kit from ex. hughes then i have 9.6:1, 10.5:1, 11.3:1 and 13.7:1 on 84cc to choose from and no clue which cam is safe for pump gas.
I guess i trying to figure out how much cr i can go for great torque at low rpm on pump gas with the parts i have with vacuum for power brakes. I'm not into high-rpm hp and would easy go for a smaller cam for torque.

What do you mean by 1 7/8 headers is wrong. Bigger, smaller or not headers at all? Please explain, learning here.

With a 500in type build using 3.23 gears and 295/50 tires I'd look at the crane H302-2 cam : https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/crn-684561/overview/make/dodge

That'll work fine with 10.5:1 compression and aluminum heads. Plenty of low end power with strong throttle response. Lots of manifold vacuum for a PB booster.  Edelbrock Performer RPM or Holley street dominator would be a good intake manifold choice along with an 850DP carb. The TTI 1 7/8 headers along with a 3in exhaust system would be perfect.


Ron

[Yada]

With a 500in type build using 3.23 gears and 295/50 tires I'd look at the crane H302-2 cam : https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/crn-684561/overview/make/dodge

That'll work fine with 10.5:1 compression and aluminum heads. Plenty of low end power with strong throttle response. Lots of manifold vacuum for a PB booster.  Edelbrock Performer RPM or Holley street dominator would be a good intake manifold choice along with an 850DP carb. The TTI 1 7/8 headers along with a 3in exhaust system would be perfect.


Ron

Thanks Ron!
I will certainly keep that as a reference before talk with suppliers of kits Hughes, 440 source, mancini etc...  If they would think otherwise i hope i can get your help later?

Just as Sheldon recommended for intake and better fuel delivery. Guess i can convince my wife now thats that really needed.

Would cam choice change if i would go for EFI instead of carb in the future?

[c00nhunterjoe]

I value low rpm at highway for comfort, so i would like to keep 3.23 if possible. Tires thats on the car now is cheap cooper 295/50-15. Next set of tires will probably be bfgoodrich same size. I like how it looks/fits on the car.


Lopey idle and say somewhere max 1100-1200 rpm is ok, if stock rpm is doable then it's a plus.

Lets say i did by a 500ci stroker kit from ex. hughes then i have 9.6:1, 10.5:1, 11.3:1 and 13.7:1 on 84cc to choose from and no clue which cam is safe for pump gas.
I guess i trying to figure out how much cr i can go for great torque at low rpm on pump gas with the parts i have with vacuum for power brakes. I'm not into high-rpm hp and would easy go for a smaller cam for torque.

What do you mean by 1 7/8 headers is wrong. Bigger, smaller or not headers at all? Please explain, learning here.

With a 500in type build using 3.23 gears and 295/50 tires I'd look at the crane H302-2 cam : https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/crn-684561/overview/make/dodge

That'll work fine with 10.5:1 compression and aluminum heads. Plenty of low end power with strong throttle response. Lots of manifold vacuum for a PB booster.  Edelbrock Performer RPM or Holley street dominator would be a good intake manifold choice along with an 850DP carb. The TTI 1 7/8 headers along with a 3in exhaust system would be perfect.


Ron

Yup, what he said. I think the rpm will make a little more power then the street dominator, but it will be negligible. I would consider maybe a cam with a little more lift to let the 500 breath, as long as you are under .600 lift, it will be long living and reliable. Lots of "off the shelf" grinds in the .550 range that would fit a street 500 well.

[Yada]

Update

There is limited selection on pistons for 440 .060 4.15 stroke. The options i had was flattop or -24dish. With 84cc, 0-deck and .039 4.505 gasket would give me CR 11.44 or 9.67 and it seems little to high or low. If i had found -13cc pistons it would be great, but don't seem to exist as on the shelf option.

So i decided to go for stock stroke and flattops. Highly inspired on Challenger340's work on "Lowly" 440 http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,106687.0.html. With the IC9953 .060 and 84cc, 0-deck and .039 4.505 gasket would give me perfect? CR 10.34.

In Challenger340 thread booth XE274H and XE280H was used and i'm thinking XE274H would be the better choice for more low rpm torque? other options out there?

I know how to calculate both DCR and cylinder pressure on Wallace racing calculators. But what is considered safe for pump gas 91 or 93 with good quench .039 and is that all? or are there other factors to consider?

[cdr]

Update

There is limited selection on pistons for 440 .060 4.15 stroke. The options i had was flattop or -24dish. With 84cc, 0-deck and .039 4.505 gasket would give me CR 11.44 or 9.67 and it seems little to high or low. If i had found -13cc pistons it would be great, but don't seem to exist as on the shelf option.

So i decided to go for stock stroke and flattops. Highly inspired on Challenger340's work on "Lowly" 440 http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,106687.0.html. With the IC9953 .060 and 84cc, 0-deck and .039 4.505 gasket would give me perfect? CR 10.34.

In Challenger340 thread booth XE274H and XE280H was used and i'm thinking XE274H would be the better choice for more low rpm torque? other options out there?

I know how to calculate both DCR and cylinder pressure on Wallace racing calculators. But what is considered safe for pump gas 91 or 93 with good quench .039 and is that all? or are there other factors to consider?

9.67 compression will be great, thats what my street 512 has. don't waste your money on a stock stroke build, it cost no more for a 500 incher, cubic inch on the street is where its at.

[comet_666]

This is what I did for my 512 with 3.23 gears

580 HP / 667 TQ

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,124503.0.html

Only thing I have done is change out plugs for hotter ones in almost 4000 miles (other than change oil). I can light the tires up at 50 mph and cruise on the x way at 70 at 3000rpm with my 295/50/15

[pipeliner]

If you had a crank or could get a steel crank on the cheap I would say don't waist your money on a 500" stroker. Cruises with the family and so forth why in the hell would you need all of that power. You can almost get there without a stroker. Take for instance my labor and parts for getting my crank turned, piston and rings, ARP rod bolts and all bearings and caps were well under $1k. I'll be pushing 550 HP+ with my combo. On my 70 Charger I ended up going with the street dominator because I don't want to be fighting hood fitment issues. The RPM performer might would be suited better for the high gear but those 2 intakes are so close in performance it ain't funny. Good luck on the build!

[303 Mopar]

Similar to Comet's 512, below are the specs for my 505 ci stroker:
1975 440 block
Camshaft - Lunati 60312 Hyd Roller Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 231/239, Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .535/.550, LSA/ICL: 110/106, RPM Range: 2200-6200
Cam Button - Comp 206
Timing chain - Lunati 94225
Roller Lifters - Lunati 72338-16
Rocker Arms - Comp Roller Set 1621-16
Springs - Comp 925
Heads - Edelbrock 60929
Pushrods - Comp 7774
Bronze Dist/oil pump drive - Mopar P3690875
Head Bolts - ARP 145-3606
Main Studs - ARP 140-5401
440 Source Stroker kit - 440.512.5060
Pistons - 5060 4R 4L
Piston Rings - CR6490-35
Rods - 7.1"
Main Bearings - Clevite MS1795V
Rod Bearings - Clevite CB743HN
Cam Bearings - Clevite SH876S
Oil Pan - Summit 440 6 pack deep pan
Oil Pan Gasket - Fel-Pro 1834
Valve Cover Gasket - Moroso 93055
Valley Pan Gasket set - Fel Pro 1215
T-stat - Milodon 180 high flow 16406
Plugs - Champion RC-12YC
Windage Tray - 440 source for stroker
Bore - 4.350
Stroke - 4.25
Head Gaskets - Fel Pro Perma Torque 8519-PT
Carb - Proform 850 Black Street Series 67314
Intake - Holley Street Dominator HLY-300-14
Water Pump/housing - Mancini High Volume Kit MRE6900KAH

https://youtu.be/HIYHRgbeYOI

[Yada]

Thank you all for replying, this is really exiting for sure. Anyone now min-max(190?) cylinder pressure for alu-heads and relationship to engine temp? Are you all on pump gas, octane?

@CDR i made a mistake on the piston choice it seems. no -24cc pistons for 4.15 stroke 4.380 bore, so only left with flat top 0-deck 11.44 CR. seems i need a big cam for pump gas and hopefully it won't hurt low rpm torque.

@comet_666 Impressive numbers, i will definitely look closer on your build!
happy with the roller cam?
any idea what stall you converter has with your build?

@pipeliner Thanks, that was my first thought to stay stock, but... it seems that the more feedback i get more is for stroker.

@303 Mopar Thanks, will definitely look closer on your build to!

[cdr]

Thank you all for replying, this is really exiting for sure. Anyone now min-max(190?) cylinder pressure for alu-heads and relationship to engine temp? Are you all on pump gas, octane?

@CDR i made a mistake on the piston choice it seems. no -24cc pistons for 4.15 stroke 4.380 bore, so only left with flat top 0-deck 11.44 CR. seems i need a big cam for pump gas and hopefully it won't hurt low rpm torque.

@comet_666 Impressive numbers, i will definitely look closer on your build!
happy with the roller cam?
any idea what stall you converter has with your build?

@pipeliner Thanks, that was my first thought to stay stock, but... it seems that the more feedback i get more is for stroker.

@303 Mopar Thanks, will definitely look closer on your build to!

I see they have them for a 543 cid,

[Yada]

I see they have them for a 543 cid,

huh, to big for me. I'm not man enough

[pipeliner]

I'd run Trick Flow heads BTW

[Yada]

Deleted inaccurate dynosim pic.

[Yada]

So I ended up with this:
Kept stock deck height for lower CR instead of quench.
Existing E-street 84cc heads.
Existing tti 1 7/8".
Eagle 4.150" crank.
Diamond 4.38" flattop pistons.
Scat rods.
Howards mechanical flat tappetcam, Lift: .515 / .530, Duration @ .050: 246 / 252, Centerline: 106, Lobe sep: 110, Direct lube lifters.
PRW Alu rollers.
High pressure oil-pump.
Holley street dominator manifold.
Holeshot 2400 converter.

Butt dyno say's GREAT!!! at WOT despite Edelbrock performer 750 is impossible to tune right on this combo and probably to small, either to rich on cruise with almost ok for power or of-idle hesitation and stumble to get going with ok on cruise and ok on power, WOT is easy to set spot on. Will change to Holley sniper soon and hopefully that will take care of street drivability.

[myk]

Way to go, Edel-bog...

[c00nhunterjoe]

Do you have the tuning kit for the eddy carb? Or are you just turning the 2 screws on the front?

[Yada]

Do you have the tuning kit for the eddy carb? Or are you just turning the 2 screws on the front?

Yes I have the tuning kit and innovative A/F meter and also studied tunabrock.xls (google will find it) where area is calculated for different jets and rods. Tried every jet/rod/spring combo in the kit and and also without spring for test with no luck but it was really educative after all.