505 RB build with Trick Flow heads

[Paul G]

Why do you think they have been thousands of flat tappet cams gone flat?

You do know why the sudden and extreme failure of flat tappet cams occurred around 20 years ago right?  And what we do today to make up for the cause of the problem?

[PRH]

I think Bob did a nice job of spelling out the potential pitfalls of using a hyd roller cam in a BB mopar block.

If you decide to still try one in your own build, here is a test you can do when the long block is complete, but before you install the intake and valley cover.
You'll need to have the motor pretty much "done" with the exception of those two items, to the point where you can prime the oil system.

While running the priming tool, rotate the motor and observe how much leakage there is coming out from the bottom of each lifter bore. You'll want to run each lifter through it's full lift range, and usually the greatest leakage occurs when the lifter is closest to peak lift.
If you're using lifters that have a cutout around the lifter wheel, you might be pretty surprised at how much oil is coming out from the bottom of the lifter bore.

At that point, the light bulb should come on that less than 100% optimal performance out of your hyd roller lifter combo is a real possibility.

On the other hand, if you find very little oil running out from below the lifters throughout their lift cycle, you'll probably have satisfactory results.

I will say this, with today's oils and the availability of edm lifters, provided some amount of common sense is employed with regards to lobe selection, there isnt any real fear in my mind about running solid flat tappet cams.

Way less $$$, and way fewer parts to fail than a roller set-up.

[pipeliner]

Thanks for the information guys.

[pipeliner]

Thats some funny stuff right there. So give us some specs! Surely they should be some if your wanting to run HR lifters??? How many problems are associated with HR lifters that seem associated with the comp HR lifters? You can do the research yourself. Seems like all of them.

Give you specs? On what? There are none for hydraulic rollers in a standard block. What do you want? Several reputable builders have said its a problem and reccomended against it. What more do you want?

I guess I'll go back to running a purple cam or put a BBC in it with HL in it since they are the only ones that have it figured out. Imagine that. A few reputable Mopar builders had problems with a bad batch of HL from Comp and now nobody should run them LMFAO!

Let's try this again OK ? ?
I was attempting to convey a "potential" HR installation problem many people have, or may in future encounter with HR's in BB Mopars.... that has NOTHING to do with the Lifters themselves... nor anything to "figure out" in the Lifter itself ?

It is the Blocks and potential wear in one area present ? that can compromise the otherwise fine HR Lifter's, or any Hydraulic Lifter's ability to function correctly ?

But for some reason while promoting the propaganda the Koolaid around HR's.... which NOBODY HERE is saying aren't just GREAT in other brands with different Oil gallery Locations and Lifter Bore location intersects.....
some people,
KEEP MISSING THE POINT around the specific to BB Mopars, Block/Lifter Bore wear and from the Oil Gallery intersect location out ?

I am NOT knocking HR's.... we run them all the time in other brands that YES... we have been requested to build as well. They work GREAT   !
Just say'in.....
with BB Mopars and HR Lifters.... CHECK closely in one area on the Block,(and often times even that is no guarantee), so be aware bottoming or very close to bottoming the lifter plunger may be the only answer in operation if problems are encountered..... then longer pushrods to correct the excessive adjuster thread exposure below the Rockers if that's what you have to do.(Run the plunger down)

Ive already got the heads for the HR setup which is I think the 1.55 dual springs .If the bottom of my lifter bore is wore like a half moon then what are my options? You gave a real good explanation and I get it now. Thank you for that

[Challenger340]

Thats some funny stuff right there. So give us some specs! Surely they should be some if your wanting to run HR lifters??? How many problems are associated with HR lifters that seem associated with the comp HR lifters? You can do the research yourself. Seems like all of them.

Give you specs? On what? There are none for hydraulic rollers in a standard block. What do you want? Several reputable builders have said its a problem and reccomended against it. What more do you want?

I guess I'll go back to running a purple cam or put a BBC in it with HL in it since they are the only ones that have it figured out. Imagine that. A few reputable Mopar builders had problems with a bad batch of HL from Comp and now nobody should run them LMFAO!

Let's try this again OK ? ?
I was attempting to convey a "potential" HR installation problem many people have, or may in future encounter with HR's in BB Mopars.... that has NOTHING to do with the Lifters themselves... nor anything to "figure out" in the Lifter itself ?

It is the Blocks and potential wear in one area present ? that can compromise the otherwise fine HR Lifter's, or any Hydraulic Lifter's ability to function correctly ?

But for some reason while promoting the propaganda the Koolaid around HR's.... which NOBODY HERE is saying aren't just GREAT in other brands with different Oil gallery Locations and Lifter Bore location intersects.....
some people,
KEEP MISSING THE POINT around the specific to BB Mopars, Block/Lifter Bore wear and from the Oil Gallery intersect location out ?

I am NOT knocking HR's.... we run them all the time in other brands that YES... we have been requested to build as well. They work GREAT   !
Just say'in.....
with BB Mopars and HR Lifters.... CHECK closely in one area on the Block,(and often times even that is no guarantee), so be aware bottoming or very close to bottoming the lifter plunger may be the only answer in operation if problems are encountered..... then longer pushrods to correct the excessive adjuster thread exposure below the Rockers if that's what you have to do.(Run the plunger down)

Ive already got the heads for the HR setup which is I think the 1.55 dual springs .If the bottom of my lifter bore is wore like a half moon then what are my options? You gave a real good explanation and I get it now. Thank you for that

if you do find wear(half moon) present at the bottom of the Lifter Bore below the Oil Gallery intersect ?  I can't give you an actual  'spec' for acceptable vrs NON......  
Here at our Shop,
and because we DYNO everything BEFORE it leaves for the Customer(so it must be perfect)
we work on .001" Lifter to Bore clearance and ROUND within a ten thousandth for Hydraulics. If we find an extra .0005" to .001" in the area discussed ? then we Rec Solid type Lifter anything(Roller or Flat) vrs installing Hydraulic
or,
we BUSH the Lifter Bores, which is an excessively expensive option budgetarily in a stock Block for the Customer on a non-Race build.

IMO, (outside of my business)
IF you do find the Lifter Bore "wear" discussed ? and you are committed to the HR ?
Then I would say run it.... strangely to me, some DO manage to run just fine ? it's the lots that don't as the concern and I don't like "luck" as a factor to good outcomes.    
But then IF you do find later problems in operation ? Ticks ? or rpm breakdown you can't tune away ?  
Then try adjusting the HR Lifter Plunger DOWN until almost bottomed out(within .010" to .015"), basically running it very close to a solid.
The problem with the above cure....
is that screwing the Rocker Adjuster DOWN that far(usually another 2 full turns), exposes the extra 2 turns of adjuster plus the normal 1-1 1/2 = 3-4 threads of the adjuster BELOW the Rocker, where the root pitch in the adjuster threads is a weak point subject to excessive "leverage" loads in Rocker action.... and over time.... the Adjuster can BREAK OFF, which can potentially damage the Rocker/Pushrod/Cam or even the Lifter itself.

See why we can't do that at our Shop on a Customer Engine with our name on it ?
IF we encountered a problem on the Dyno.... we could probably get it through the Dyno session just fine running the plunger down, and out the door 'delivered' to the Customer just fine... get PAID,  but we just can't leave what we would KNOW is a potential adjuster "failure" waiting to happen for our Customer ?  especially AFTER having made up our own Pushrods(we do it in house) to maximize Valvetrain Geometry.
THAT would NOT be right when we are being PAID a guys hard earned money for our experience in these matter's, without getting into even the morality or ethics in playing stooopid to do so.
So,
we BUSH the Bores..... or we Rec a NON Hydraulic option, SOLID, (which a guy is basically doing by running the HR Plunger down if he has to anyways.)

On another Note....
we just went through this again at our Shop.
We service other "HotRod" Shops for their Machining requirements building Engines. They ship it to us... we Machine & Blueprint everything, then ship it back "ready to assemble" for them with Spec Sheet & Detailed Instructions for repeatability (we've Machined, cleaned, and mock up assembled BEFORE it goes back as a "U-BUILD IT" PKG)
Anyways,
this last Shop wanted a BB Mopar, which they called us with their needs including an HR Cam setup.
Now if this thread does not illustrate the GREAT LENGTHS I went through explaining the Block/HR pitfalls they may encounter with the HR Cam.... you get the picture here ?
Nonetheless,
they declined the Lifter Bore "Bushing" and insisted upon the HR for the Customer, full well in their minds that I was full of crap about HR's and believing the X-brand propaganda of NO-problem in a BB Mopar, and accepted full responsibility for the HR as their decision, even to the point of I made them "sign off" on the Invoice as INFORMED around any HR noise, ticks, or running problems, etc.
You know where this is going here right ?
You guessed it.... they assembled and DYNO'd, no problems or as I was told on the Dyno "it ran very quiet with good power".
Then,
they installed it in the Car(a $60K Barrett acquisition) and found some intermittent HR Lifter "noise" ?
Long story short.... and after their lengthy fix attempts over time... them phoning me, to which all I could say was "I told you so".... they eventually had to run the HR Plunger's down.

NOT saying this will happen on all HR BB Mopar Builds !
Just trying to get the info around the "potential" out there.... so that IF it occurs ? there is somewhat of a band-aid remedy for people(running the Lifter down), but more importantly stressing an area to check beforehand, KNOWLEDGE = Good outcomes for people.



 

[pipeliner]

Thank you so much for that explanation. I plain on doing exactly what you are saying.

[PRH]

I'll just add one other tidbit of info here.....

One of the reasons many are interested in the HR path is the potential added power from the use of the roller lifter.
More high lift area, more area under the curve, more lift per degree of duration, etc.

All this equates to more velocity at the valve, which requires more spring pressure to maintain proper control of the valve.

It's this increase in velocity along with the added spring pressure that puts added stresses on the hyd system in the lifter.
Because of these added stresses to the lifter, it's even more important that the lifter receives an adequate oil supply.

IMO, even if the lifter bores are showing the normal wear that would likely cause problematic leakage with a HR lifter, I think in most cases they would still work very satisfactorily with a hyd flat tappet cam..... If....... Lobe profiles with more moderate rates are chosen, which can be controlled with modest spring pressure, especially when combined with std rocker ratios........ And....... The "correct" BB Mopar hyd flat tappets are used.
And by that I mean the ones that have the narrow oil band located high on the lifter(Johnson A-976 style).

All of the leakage issues Bob is talking about here are also present with a SR application.
The difference is there isn't a hyd system inside the lifter that's relying on an uninterrupted supply of pressurized oil to allow it to function properly.

[pipeliner]

I'll just add one other tidbit of info here.....

One of the reasons many are interested in the HR path is the potential added power from the use of the roller lifter.
More high lift area, more area under the curve, more lift per degree of duration, etc.

All this equates to more velocity at the valve, which requires more spring pressure to maintain proper control of the valve.

It's this increase in velocity along with the added spring pressure that puts added stresses on the hyd system in the lifter.
Because of these added stresses to the lifter, it's even more important that the lifter receives an adequate oil supply.

IMO, even if the lifter bores are showing the normal wear that would likely cause problematic leakage with a HR lifter, I think in most cases they would still work very satisfactorily with a hyd flat tappet cam..... If....... Lobe profiles with more moderate rates are chosen, which can be controlled with modest spring pressure, especially when combined with std rocker ratios........ And....... The "correct" BB Mopar hyd flat tappets are used.
And by that I mean the ones that have the narrow oil band located high on the lifter(Johnson A-976 style).

All of the leakage issues Bob is talking about here are also present with a SR application.
The difference is there isn't a hyd system inside the lifter that's relying on an uninterrupted supply of pressurized oil to allow it to function properly.

Thanks Dwayne for the added explanation. If my lifter bores show the normal wear that's going to cause me problems I'll just send everything back and  go solid flat tappet. On another note. What do you like better with my build for an intake. I've already bought the RPM performer but now was thinking a street dominator? Thanks again everybody!

[cdr]

This is my low deck combo, it is solid FT cam, this is a street strip set up.   NO traction

4.380" bore  4.250 stroke 6.536 H beam rod   440 SOURCE STROKER KIT

(.040 over)  -24cc dish
 1.320"  9.9 to1 comp  
Indy single plane intake
Howards Cams​ solid flat tappet  .579 lift  248 @.050 duration
Trend Performance Products​  custom push rods
& tool steel solid lifters
440 source SUPER STEALTH heads flow 330 @ .650 lift,,, ALMOST Max Wedge port size.
THIS IS A STREET BUILD, yes the Charger has COLD A/C  3.54 rear gear, a518 overdrive with lock up torque converter
Holley 950 hp carb,, for now
Machine work done by G & G performance co in Tomball TX

[BSB67]

This is my low deck combo, it is solid FT cam, this is a street strip set up.   NO traction

4.380" bore  4.250 stroke 6.536 H beam rod   440 SOURCE STROKER KIT

(.040 over)  -24cc dish
 1.320"  9.9 to1 comp  
Indy single plane intake
Howards Cams​ solid flat tappet  .579 lift  248 @.050 duration
Trend Performance Products​  custom push rods
& tool steel solid lifters
440 source SUPER STEALTH heads flow 330 @ .650 lift,,, ALMOST Max Wedge port size.
THIS IS A STREET BUILD, yes the Charger has COLD A/C  3.54 rear gear, a518 overdrive with lock up torque converter
Holley 950 hp carb,, for now
Machine work done by G & G performance co in Tomball TX

Corrected numbers hand written?

[c00nhunterjoe]

Russ- Yes

[cdr]

Russ the correction was Wallace racing, his math did not add near as much HP as other formulas I found. Dragtimes & others show 121 mph corrected,we also had a 20mph head wind, hope to have some slicks by this fall & do some tuning.

[BSB67]

Very Nice.

[Paul G]

It's been two weeks since I spoke with the engine builders. Have not heard back from either of them yet.

[cdr]

Thanks Paul,keep us posted

[flyinlow]

Just out of curiosity , what does it cost to bush a RB Mopar ?

[c00nhunterjoe]

Just out of curiosity , what does it cost to bush a RB Mopar ?

Depends on the area, and machine shop quality. But figure around 1000.

[Paul G]

I got estimated prices back from 3 engine builders. All three are just shy of $14000 dollars for a complete engine. Allow another $3500 for the conversion from small block to big block, and the cost is just not justifiable with this car. 

[PRH]

Sounds like a SB stroker kit and some RPM heads for your current motor should be part of the new shopping list.

[1974dodgecharger]

I got estimated prices back from 3 engine builders. All three are just shy of $14000 dollars for a complete engine. Allow another $3500 for the conversion from small block to big block, and the cost is just not justifiable with this car. 

Its a tough decision that's for sure at that price......

[Paul G]

Staying small block? That will greatly reduce the cost. There is no expense for converting, a big plus.

My goals will have to change with a small block. Running mid 12's can only be accomplished by making no less than 525 CHP. Using the Wallace Racing calculator,

http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php

This calculator is spot on with what this car has already done on the quarter mile in Vegas, using WHP from a chassis dyno it has been on. My 4200# car ran a 14.9 at 91 mph, making 255 RWHP.

A streetable 408 can make how much power? It has to be power brake friendly, run cool in traffic with the A/C on, and still have an acceptable idle.

Using that Wallace racing calculator making 360 WHP will put the car in the low 13's. Using 20% drive line loss, that is making 450 CHP.

[cdr]

The Wallace calc, is flywheel HP with 10 % driveline loss .

[PRH]

Vegas is about a .25 deficit compared to what the calculators show(sea level).

While retaining a decent level of street manners, and suitable for running in traffic with the AC going, I feel that 450-ish is probably a practical limit/goal.
They can easily make way more power than that, but I'm not sure how well a "hotter" combo would fit in with the rest of your plans.

Aftermarket heads, solid flat tappet cam, etc.
Another option would be to find a magnum block, or the latest of the LA blocks that had the taller lifter bosses and then run a hyd roller cam.
If you got a magnum block you could use the aftermarket magnum style heads.

I'm figuring that type of build would run 100-103 @4200lbs at Vegas with a decent converter that's well matched to the motor.

[BSB67]

Vegas is about a .25 deficit compared to what the calculators show(sea level).

While retaining a decent level of street manners, and suitable for running in traffic with the AC going, I feel that 450-ish is probably a practical limit/goal.
They can easily make way more power than that, but I'm not sure how well a "hotter" combo would fit in with the rest of your plans.

Aftermarket heads, solid flat tappet cam, etc.
Another option would be to find a magnum block, or the latest of the LA blocks that had the taller lifter bosses and then run a hyd roller cam.
If you got a magnum block you could use the aftermarket magnum style heads.

I'm figuring that type of build would run 100-103 @4200lbs at Vegas with a decent converter that's well matched to the motor.

Its hard to make power without air.

[Paul G]

I found this at Indy Cylinder Head. It's a Magnum small block stroker. It makes great power for a small block, 520 HP @ 6000 RPM, 500 Torque @ 5000 RPM. The price is very reasonable if the website pricing is accurate. No conversion costs a big plus.

So what should I expect from this engine, or one like it built for me? Streetable? Pump gas friendly? Enough vacuum for power brakes? Run cool and idle somewhat nicely?

Indy Cylinder Head is a big name, how is the quality from them these days? 

http://www.indyheads.com/images/newla4.pdf