505 RB build with Trick Flow heads

[Paul G]

Doing more research prior to pulling the trigger with an engine builder. It seems cost effective, and just wise to use the Trick Flow 240 heads. I have not ran across anyone who has anything negative to say. Actually, "they are the real deal" is very commonly heard.

So, I have spoken with two engine builders in town. Both have my pertinant info on the use of the engine and what my goals are. Run cool on the street, run power brakes, power steering, and A/C, run mid 12 quarters on street tires.

4100# car
46RH auto w lock up converter
Diff is 3.91 8 3/4 sure grip

I am curious now what they are going to come back with. Anyone care to guess on the build spec?

[BDF]

 

[c00nhunterjoe]

On a pump gas 505, i would run the mechanical comp xs282 (or equivalant brand) have a mild port/blend done on those trick flows, comp steel roller rockers, 1 7/8 header, performer rpm intake, quality 850-950 carb. It will run mid 12s on bfg street tires with the rest of your drivetrain, 11s on tire.
    I suspect they will reccomend a hydraulic cam though.

[Paul G]

    I suspect they will reccomend a hydraulic cam though.

Yep. Hydraulic roller. Thats all they want to build anymore. They blame the oil for it.

[firefighter3931]

On a pump gas 505, i would run the mechanical comp xs282 (or equivalant brand) have a mild port/blend done on those trick flows, comp steel roller rockers, 1 7/8 header, performer rpm intake, quality 850-950 carb. It will run mid 12s on bfg street tires with the rest of your drivetrain, 11s on tire.
    I suspect they will reccomend a hydraulic cam though.

That looks good. I like the XS282S for that build as well but I'd have it custom made with a 112* LSA and have the cam nitrided and use a tool steel flat tappet with EDM hole for priority lobe oiling. Use Brad Penn oil and it'll be fine. I'd opt for a low rise single plane like the Holley Street Dominator (better hood clearance + more top end power) and an 850 Quickfuel or Proform carburator. Keep the compression at 10-10.5:1 for pump gas. Upgrade the fuel lines to 3/8 and run a 120GPH fuel pump.


Ron

[pipeliner]

Are you building a race car or a maintenance free street car? Why wouldn't you want to go Hydraulic Roller on the cam?

[Paul G]

Are you building a race car or a maintenance free street car? Why wouldn't you want to go Hydraulic Roller on the cam?

It is a street car. It will see some track days and some back road trips to 6500 RPM.

I too would like to know the pros and cons about using a hydraulic roller in a big block.

On FABO there are some B and RB builds using mild hydraulic roller cams with OOTB Trick Flow heads, 10.5 compression, single plane intake either the Trick Flow or Wilson Manifolds, 850 carb or bigger, making roughly 550 HP and 600 TQ or better. My build is going to be for a street car, I want an acceptable idle, some choppiness to a point is okay, and have at least some street manners.

[justcruisin]

Are the tool steel lifters worth the extra $$ with a mild cam like the xs282s over a standard EDM lifter, they are pricey - roller territory.

[c00nhunterjoe]

If you are going roller, go solid. These blocks were never designed for lifter oiling stability at rpm. The clearances are just there. Can you run hydraulic- sure. Will it run ok- yup. But you are leaving alot of free power on the table. You are already spending the money on roller lifters and adjustable valvetrain so just go solid. 

[303 Mopar]

Not Trick Flow Heads but here is my 505 stroker build specs.  My butt dyno says it has 600+ hp and tq, is not high maintenance and is a blast to drive.

1975 440 block
Camshaft - Lunati 60312 Hyd Roller Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 231/239, Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .535/.550, LSA/ICL: 110/106, RPM Range: 2200-6200
Cam Button - Comp 206
Timing chain - Lunati 94225
Roller Lifters - Lunati 72338-16
Rocker Arms - Comp Roller Set 1621-16
Springs - Comp 925
Heads - Edelbrock 60929
Pushrods - Comp 7774
Bronze Dist/oil pump drive - Mopar P3690875
Head Bolts - ARP 145-3606
Main Studs - ARP 140-5401
440 Source Stroker kit - 440.512.5060
Pistons - 5060 4R 4L
Piston Rings - CR6490-35
Rods - 7.1"
Main Bearings - Clevite MS1795V
Rod Bearings - Clevite CB743HN
Cam Bearings - Clevite SH876S
Oil Pan - Summit 440 6 pack deep pan
Oil Pan Gasket - Fel-Pro 1834
Valve Cover Gasket - Moroso 93055
Valley Pan Gasket set - Fel Pro 1215
T-stat - Milodon 180 high flow 16406
Plugs - Champion RC-12YC
Windage Tray - 440 source for stroker
Bore - 4.350
Stroke - 4.25
Head Gaskets - Fel Pro Perma Torque 8519-PT
Carb - Proform 850 Black Street Series 67314
Intake - Holley Street Dominator HLY-300-14
Water Pump/housing - Mancini High Volume Kit MRE6900KAH

https://youtu.be/HIYHRgbeYOI

[pipeliner]

That sounds like a good build 303. Just remember I also know that you leave a little bit of power on the table by not going solid and engine builders love to squeez every bit of power they can out of an engine but believe me your not going to need it in a build like you want. I would also go with the Trick Flow Roller lifters. Suppose to be a better roller lifter than the comps and the others.

[firefighter3931]

It will see some track days and some back road trips to 6500 RPM.

Typically hyd lifters are done at 5800-6000 rpm....regardless of the cam's powerband. The hyd lifter will pump up and send the valvetrain into valve float. If you really want to buzz it up to 6500 you will have to go solid roller or solid flat tappet. The Flat Tappet will require less maintenance and is a better choice for a car that will be driven a lot. Solid roller cams will make more power but it comes at a price. 

Hyd rollers are fine for an engine that won't see the high side of 6K rpm and use milder spring pressures so less stress on the valvetrain.


Ron

[Paul G]

Typically hyd lifters are done at 5800-6000 rpm....regardless of the cam's powerband. The hyd lifter will pump up and send the valvetrain into valve float. If you really want to buzz it up to 6500 you will have to go solid roller or solid flat tappet. The Flat Tappet will require less maintenance and is a better choice for a car that will be driven a lot. Solid roller cams will make more power but it comes at a price. 

Hyd rollers are fine for an engine that won't see the high side of 6K rpm and use milder spring pressures so less stress on the valvetrain.


Ron

Leading me toward a solid lifter?

Truthfully, I am not nice to this car, even the small block. I did not buy a numbers matching trailer queen. I take good care of the car, hell parking lots give me fits. But, I like to drive it hard. 

How much maintenance will the solids need? The car only gets 3000 miles per year, albeit not easy miles. Frequent lash adjustments? What is the downside to a solid roller? I like the idea of using regular oil and not having to worry about it.

Are you saying that a solid flat tappet, is less maintenance than a solid roller? I like less maintenance. 

Sorry for so many more questions.

[Back N Black]

I'm running the comp xs282 cam for 10,000 miles and I have made no adjustments to the valve train. I drive her very hard!!!

[c00nhunterjoe]

The solid roller typically has extreme spring pressures due to the aggressive grinds. The solid flat tappet can be ground more friendly for your needs. IF you use a good rocker and lock setup, they dont come loose. I check mine yearly and have almost never had to adjust them. Typically, if you find a constant need to adjust them, something is going very, very wrong.

The 72 nova has never been apart and the valve covers hadnt been off in over 20 yrs. It has a relativly large solid cam in it for a street car and i pulled them 3 yrs ago to check, all valves were dead on spec.

[fizz]

I had tons of problems with my hyd roller cam set up. Both the comp cams and lunatis failed on me.

Was the original setup a screwed up mess by original builder? yup. He was a reputable(magazine article) builder

Never bothered to figure out what it was exactly, when I pulled the heads (440 source) found out they where milled heads off a blown up engine. Got disgusted and:

Ordered a set of trick flow 240 heads and a Dwayne Porter speced comp solid flat tappet cam, Dwayne set up the heads and they did need some work.

505 rear wheel horsepower on a 493 and runs like a watch.

Call Dwayne

[pipeliner]

Both cams failed you??? Sounds more like the builders fault or the bad batch of roller lifters from Comp when they first came out.

[fizz]

I can't blame either for certain as I don't know if the builder set up the heads properly, this is above my skill set.
The builder went AWOL on me after the build, and I was so upset when I saw the shrapnel wounds in the combustion chambers I just started over with the top end.
But, my point is, hire the right guy for this.
There is a reason Dwayne recommended a solid flat tappet for me.

[pipeliner]

Dwayne is good as what he does for sure.

[PRH]

I sold a relatively easy on parts solid roller to someone who built a 505/TF240 combo.

Pump gas, and experiencing some pretty significant carb issues........ It made 670tq/630hp.

I'm not certain fixing that carb will prove to be worth any power or not........ But if should definitely decrease the amount of thick black soot in the exhaust ports.

Supposedly there is talk of another test with a new carb....... If so, I'll post the updated numbers.

[fizz]

With the hydraulic roller setup from my first builder, I had a lot of lifter noise, so we reset the lash and found a couple where it was hard to find 0 lash (couldn't feel it) changed cam and lifters (overkill to change cam I know but it was too radical for my tastes) to lunati and same thing again, noisy valve train and couldn't feel 0 lash on a three lifters. Pulled heads and found they had been milled to clean up and had had parts bouncing around the combustion chambers at one point and had been hit with a die grinder to clean up.

I probably could have sent those heads to someone like PRH and solved my problems, bought a couple new lifters and been fine, but I was tired of fooling with it and bought new parts.

Dwayne certainly didn't advocate staring over with all new parts but knew I was tired of fooling around with it, and I liked the idea of trick flow heads(my idea). He recommended the solid flat tappet cam I used, and part of that may have been cause he knew I was sick of buying lifters and wasn't trusting them. I didn't like the maintenance and short life associated with solid rollers(maybe somebody more knowledgable than I should explain this)

I want to make sure I am not misrepresenting PRH

I am a happy camper now, and that is the point.

[PRH]

The customer with the 505 I mentioned above was originally leaning towards a hyd roller.
The target was 600tq/600hp, which I told him was not going to be a problem.

I was going to use some Morel lifters and a really smooth lobe profile to get it to rev solidly to 6k.

After he searched around a bit and saw a lot of people not thrilled with their hyd roller set-ups, we discussed the options.
I told him if I were building it, it would get a solid flat tappet.
He wasnt receptive to the idea of something without wheels...... And the cost of Isky Red Zones didn't scare him off, so we decided on a solid roller.

It easily would have exceeded the 600/600 goal with a solid flat tappet cam in it.

Fizz....... Hopefully you've had a chance to get out and enjoy that car a little !!

[fizz]

About a 1000 miles and a pair of tires thanks

[alfaitalia]

Many on here not mentioning the power lost with flat tappets due to the extra load/drag on the cam. The extra 20 horses or so you might loose from not getting the valves to open the full lift of the cam with roller hydraulics are more than made up for by the lack of rolling resistance on the cam shaft. Not to mention the more aggressive profile you could have on the rollers without the worry of the edge of the tappets digging into the lobes. Just my two pence worth!

[Paul G]

I'd opt for a low rise single plane like the Holley Street Dominator (better hood clearance + more top end power) and an 850 Quickfuel or Proform carburator. Keep the compression at 10-10.5:1 for pump gas. Upgrade the fuel lines to 3/8 and run a 120GPH fuel pump.


Ron

Hood clearance is an issue. The 360 with an Eddy rpm air gap intake, and the flat hood barely closes, thats with a drop base air cleaner. Is the Holley street dominator low rise single plane going to be any higher than what I have now? Will it perform as well as a high rise? I am not against cutting a hole in the hood. Really thinking about the Trick Flow Track Heat high rise and just cutting the hood.    

Can a mechanical fuel pump feed this engine? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-1723/overview/make/dodge
This one puts out 110 GPH with a 3/8" outlet.

Still have not heard back from either of the engine builders.

[pipeliner]

Many on here not mentioning the power lost with flat tappets due to the extra load/drag on the cam. The extra 20 horses or so you might loose from not getting the valves to open the full lift of the cam with roller hydraulics are more than made up for by the lack of rolling resistance on the cam shaft. Not to mention the more aggressive profile you could have on the rollers without the worry of the edge of the tappets digging into the lobes. Just my two pence worth!

or the thousands of flat tappets that have went flat. People have been running Hydraulic Rollers now for over 30 years with very little problems. I'm not going to let a bad batch of comp roller lifters scare me like it has everybody in the past. They are so much more beneficial in a street car. I'll run my free NAPA 15/40 oil in it and put my beautiful valve covers on it and won't  have to worry about taking them back off.

[firefighter3931]

I'd opt for a low rise single plane like the Holley Street Dominator (better hood clearance + more top end power) and an 850 Quickfuel or Proform carburator. Keep the compression at 10-10.5:1 for pump gas. Upgrade the fuel lines to 3/8 and run a 120GPH fuel pump.


Ron

Hood clearance is an issue. The 360 with an Eddy rpm air gap intake, and the flat hood barely closes, thats with a drop base air cleaner. Is the Holley street dominator low rise single plane going to be any higher than what I have now? Will it perform as well as a high rise? I am not against cutting a hole in the hood. Really thinking about the Trick Flow Track Heat high rise and just cutting the hood.    

Can a mechanical fuel pump feed this engine? https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-1723/overview/make/dodge
This one puts out 110 GPH with a 3/8" outlet.

Still have not heard back from either of the engine builders.

Paul,

The SD is slightly taller than the factory manifold and it is low enough that the stock kickdown linkage will work so there's no reason it won't clear a stock hood. I had the SD on my old 446 with a 1in spacer under the carb and it cleared the stock 68 hood with a drop base air cleaner assembly. 

I'm not sure the Track Heat manifold is the right manifold for this build....it is designed for a higher rpm type build. 

I used the Carter high volume pump which is 120gph and regulated @ 6psi with great results. I would definitely recommend upgrading to 3/8 fuel lines and a return style system to keep the fuel cooler (recirculation). You can purchased these lines from several vendors along with the return style fuel vapor separator. When I was running the mechanical pump I also insulated all of the fuel lines around the engine to keep the fuel protected from conductive/radiating heat coming off the engine. I never had any issues with fuel boiling/vapor lock. 



Ron

[firefighter3931]

Typically hyd lifters are done at 5800-6000 rpm....regardless of the cam's powerband. The hyd lifter will pump up and send the valvetrain into valve float. If you really want to buzz it up to 6500 you will have to go solid roller or solid flat tappet. The Flat Tappet will require less maintenance and is a better choice for a car that will be driven a lot. Solid roller cams will make more power but it comes at a price. 

Hyd rollers are fine for an engine that won't see the high side of 6K rpm and use milder spring pressures so less stress on the valvetrain.


Ron

Leading me toward a solid lifter?

Truthfully, I am not nice to this car, even the small block. I did not buy a numbers matching trailer queen. I take good care of the car, hell parking lots give me fits. But, I like to drive it hard. 

How much maintenance will the solids need? The car only gets 3000 miles per year, albeit not easy miles. Frequent lash adjustments? What is the downside to a solid roller? I like the idea of using regular oil and not having to worry about it.

Are you saying that a solid flat tappet, is less maintenance than a solid roller? I like less maintenance. 

Sorry for so many more questions.

Solid flat tappets require a lash "Check" periodically....I used to do mine once a year at the beginning of the driving season. Most times the lash remained consistent with no adjustments required. I'd say this was pretty low maintenance and a good tradeoff for the increased reliability vs a hyd cam. 

The maintenance on a solid roller is a little more intense. Typically you'll be replacing the bronze distributor drive every 5k miles, inspecting and possibly rebuilding the roller lifters and swapping in fresh valvesprings at the same interval. 

For a car that is driven 10k miles/year the solid roller is not the preferred option....INMHO 



Ron

[Paul G]

Intakes,

I would be very disappointed if I go with a dual plane, or low rise single plane, and the hood still wont shut and have to cut it anyway. I dont have room for a 1/4" nitrous plate as it is right now. Add to that a 1" carb spacer?

The Track Heat is designed for top end, as is all the single plane intakes, right? The stroker is designed to increase low end torque, which there will be plenty. Together would they not make this a stronger engine both down low and on top?

Lifters,

Solid lifters will outperform hydrauilic at the higher RPM, correct? From what I have read, Mopar never designed these engines to handle the taller roller lifter that we like to fit in to them today. Without bushing the lifter bore, it can wear and cause a loss of oil pressure inside the lifter, which pretty much negates the pump up of the lifter. Is this correct?

Looking at the prices of roller lifter/cam combos, and flat tappet combos, there is about $1000 price difference.

Summary,

Lets say, 3.91 gears I am using, along with a solid flat tappet lifter/cam, single plane high rise manifold, and a stroker bottom end. I should see plenty of torque down low, and easily pull hard to 6500 RPM.

I am on a budget. Saving $1000 just on the cam selection is big. I have had solids in engines before, hell the slant six I had in 1980 had solids. Checking them periodically was no sweat.

Where am I going wrong here?

BTW, do the single plane high rise intakes have vacuum ports for power brakes, PCV, etc?

[firefighter3931]

Intakes,

I would be very disappointed if I go with a dual plane, or low rise single plane, and the hood still wont shut and have to cut it anyway. I dont have room for a 1/4" nitrous plate as it is right now. Add to that a 1" carb spacer?

The Track Heat is designed for top end, as is all the single plane intakes, right? The stroker is designed to increase low end torque, which there will be plenty. Together would they not make this a stronger engine both down low and on top?

Lifters,

Solid lifters will outperform hydrauilic at the higher RPM, correct? From what I have read, Mopar never designed these engines to handle the taller roller lifter that we like to fit in to them today. Without bushing the lifter bore, it can wear and cause a loss of oil pressure inside the lifter, which pretty much negates the pump up of the lifter. Is this correct?

Looking at the prices of roller lifter/cam combos, and flat tappet combos, there is about $1000 price difference.

Summary,

Lets say, 3.91 gears I am using, along with a solid flat tappet lifter/cam, single plane high rise manifold, and a stroker bottom end. I should see plenty of torque down low, and easily pull hard to 6500 RPM.

I am on a budget. Saving $1000 just on the cam selection is big. I have had solids in engines before, hell the slant six I had in 1980 had solids. Checking them periodically was no sweat.

Where am I going wrong here?

BTW, do the single plane high rise intakes have vacuum ports for power brakes, PCV, etc?

The track heat intake is just like the Edelbrock Victor which is a high rise. Definitely hood scoop with either of those and the factory trans kickdown won't work either so you'll be going to a cable style kickdown.

The Street Dominator will clear a stock hood and you don't need a spacer. Perhaps just a thick insulating carb base gasket. If a stock 440 with a cast iron intake clears the flat hood there's no reason a SD with a dropped base air cleaner won't.

The SD is an awesome manifold and performs extremely well. Easily capable of moving enough air to make 600HP + yet maintains a low profile for hood clearance and has excellent low end power. It's a win-win with that manifold for your application.

The solid lifters are way more reliable for high rpm operation vs a hyd lifter, You are correct about the lifter bushing. Often with older blocks the lifter bore clearance becomes a bit sloppy and this will impact the hyd lifter performance. 

A lowdeck (400) based build would be something to consider as well because the block is shorter which will give you more hood clearance. 

The SD does have a vac port on one of the intake runners for a PB booster. The racier Victor/track heat do not and would require drilling/tapping to install a fitting.


Ron

[pipeliner]

Just a FYI. Trick Flow Roller Lifters are good for 6500 RPM. They have tested them many times up to 7,000 RPM and they still were good and they sell them with their top end kit also. Their test mule 440 has a hard 50 hours on it and when they switched out to the 270 heads the lifters looked just like new. These lifters can bought around the $400 mark. Seems like to me some of these failures may be due to worn out lifter bores. Who would sell a lifter if it wasn't in spec and who would install lifters if the bore wasn't in spec? A Roller Hydraulic Cam will out perform a solid flat tappet and it's so much easier on your valvetrain. If your on a budget why are you waisting the extra money on a stroker when everything you are wanting can be achieved with out it?

[Paul G]

If your on a budget why are you waisting the extra money on a stroker when everything you are wanting can be achieved with out it?

Torque.

A stroker will make more torque. A heavy car needs torque.

Something that was brought to my attention today. Heat!! Phoenix is HOT!! That needs to be considered. It was suggested to keep the compression on the conservative side, A few ticks under 10 to 1. Keeps detonation concerns to a minimum in the heat and with 91 octane. Along with a conservative cam it should do OK in the 110° summer heat with the AC on. Should still make power in the 500+HP range and 600+ torque

Another thing, in the summer. Drawing in the cooler 110° outside air from above the hood rather than the HOTTER 230° air from under the hood. Does the air under the hood escape up through the opening/ scoop? Or does the cooler air get pushed down through the opening in to carb? 

[fizz]

I read a lot about lifter bores on mopars being screwed up even with new blocks, like alignment with the cam centerline, along with bore length being short for a roller. It looked like lifter bore bushings and install was maybe around $1500 or so. I inquired about that at the start of my build and it was poo-pooed by my original builder.

If I was building a track car I would have done it anyway.

That being said, I do have a bbc with a retrofit hyd roller that has about 4000 hard miles, runs like stink, and has had 0 issues.

[pipeliner]

That's where you need a good machinist. I've also read some crazy stuff also. One guy even went on to say that a hydraulic flat tappet would perform just as good as a hydraulic roller lmao! Another guy said he seen hydraulic Rollers fall off at 5200 RPM and I just watched a video of a 440 with a hydraulic roller and peak hp on that build was at 6100 RPM. Some people don't like change, people make mistakes and also blame it on the product. I'll let you know my numbers when when my machinist gets to it and when I put it on they dyno I'll also share those numbers to see how well the cam holds up.

[chargerbr549]

Here is some interesting articles on intake manifolds for 440's

Manifold                                       Heights (taken from the front of the intake)                          Average Flow
Stock                                            3.05                                                                                        ?
Indy dual plane                              3.275                                                                                    326
Holley Street Dominator                  4.130                                                                                    282
Torker II                                        4.150                                                                                    297
Team G                                         4.380                                                                                     ?
Performer RPM                               4.900                                                                                    285




Intake flow data
http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/4portedintakemanifoldsupdated08272007.php   


Height comparisons
http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/72-rr-440-intake-height.8932/

[BSB67]

Here is some interesting articles on intake manifolds for 440's

Manifold                                       Heights (taken from the front of the intake)                          Average Flow
Stock                                            3.05                                                                                        ?
Indy dual plane                              3.275                                                                                    326
Holley Street Dominator                  4.130                                                                                    282
Torker II                                        4.150                                                                                    297
Team G                                         4.380                                                                                     ?
Performer RPM                               4.900                                                                                    285




Intake flow data
http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/4portedintakemanifoldsupdated08272007.php   


Height comparisons
http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/threads/72-rr-440-intake-height.8932/

the Indy dual plane is actually about as tall as the RPM

[Challenger340]

The problem many face when using Hydraulic Rollers in BB Mopars, an Engine never designed or envisioned to use them, is the very short distance between where the very large Oil Gallery intersects the lifter Bore, and the bottom of the Bore itself, which is also the exact spot where maximum Lifter Bore wear occurs in old Blocks, allowing excessive lifeblood Oil Pressure leakage out, rather than into the Lifter maintaining preload.

Add to the above,
that Hydraulic Roller Cams require higher V/Spring Pressures to keep up with the increased ramp Roller Lobes, and you have a situation where lifeblood Oil Pressure to maintain Lifter preload and valvetrain stability is fighting against the worn Bores and higher Spring pressure trying to keep it out ..... clackity.... clackity... clackity.... or very poor rpm capability.

Interesting to note here:
is that when CRANE was initially doing the R & D for Hydraulic Rollers with FORD back in the early 80's.... one of the first identified Block design changes was to Lenghten the Lifter Bore castings themselves to assist in Lifter sealing.... hence the Mid-80's Ford "HR" smallblocks with the taller(longer) lifter Bores.
The same was done over at GM etc., as they were updating castings to run HR's... they all lengthened the Lifter Bores in the HR Blocks for this reason.

The best answer for trying to run HR Lifters in these old BB Mopar Blocks with the Short & usually normally Lifter Bore bottoms.... seems to be one of 2 things:
1.) Bush the Lifter Bores to control leakage, an extremely expensive proposition
or,
2.) Run the HR Lifter basically bottomed out for adjustment, with only about .010" or so plunger preload remaining.... so basically running as a Solid.

#2 is now the prescribed "FIX" at pretty much all Cam Manu's for BB Mopar's when you phone to complain as many do.... of "noisey valvetrain"
and,
begging the question, if so many are having to run the HR Lifter Plungers in BB Mopars down .080", .090", even .105" to shut them up, basically "Bottomed" with 3 & 4 Adjuster Threads hanging out the bottom of the Rockers, why not just run a tight lash Solid "Street" Roller Cam instead ? with even more power/Trq than the HR ?

Anybody with a dis-assembled Block ?
Take a flashlight and go LOOK at the bottom of the Lifter Bores and the distance between where the Oil gallery intersects it to out the bottom.... see what I am referring to here, even better put a Bore gauge in their for yourself if you have access to one.

[Challenger340]

That's where you need a good machinist. I've also read some crazy stuff also. One guy even went on to say that a hydraulic flat tappet would perform just as good as a hydraulic roller lmao! Another guy said he seen hydraulic Rollers fall off at 5200 RPM and I just watched a video of a 440 with a hydraulic roller and peak hp on that build was at 6100 RPM. Some people don't like change, people make mistakes and also blame it on the product. I'll let you know my numbers when when my machinist gets to it and when I put it on they dyno I'll also share those numbers to see how well the cam holds up.

Just a suggestion, you may wish get your machinist to check the clearance in the bottom of your BB Mopar Lifter Bores ?, between where the Oil Gallery intersects to OUT the bottom ? A very short distance depending on the Block between .250" to .375" and usually worn.... where the lifeblood Oil Pressure that the HR Lifter relies upon for quiet operation and rpm stability leaks out.

If you experience excessive HR Lifter noise in your BB Mopar ?, or poor rpm capability in operation ?
The fix is usually to pretty much BOTTOM the HR Lifter adjustment out.... resulting in 3-4 threads of the adjuster hanging out under the Rocker and prone to breakage over time.

Seems silly to me that if people have to bottom out the plunger in an HR Lifter to shut them up and get rpm.... as many do..... why wouldn't they just run a tight lash solid Roller ? which is what they are basically DOING ?

[pipeliner]

That's where you need a good machinist. I've also read some crazy stuff also. One guy even went on to say that a hydraulic flat tappet would perform just as good as a hydraulic roller lmao! Another guy said he seen hydraulic Rollers fall off at 5200 RPM and I just watched a video of a 440 with a hydraulic roller and peak hp on that build was at 6100 RPM. Some people don't like change, people make mistakes and also blame it on the product. I'll let you know my numbers when when my machinist gets to it and when I put it on they dyno I'll also share those numbers to see how well the cam holds up.

Just a suggestion, you may wish get your machinist to check the clearance in the bottom of your BB Mopar Lifter Bores ?, between where the Oil Gallery intersects to OUT the bottom ? A very short distance depending on the Block between .250" to .375" and usually worn.... where the lifeblood Oil Pressure that the HR Lifter relies upon for quiet operation and rpm stability leaks out.

If you experience excessive HR Lifter noise in your BB Mopar ?, or poor rpm capability in operation ?
The fix is usually to pretty much BOTTOM the HR Lifter adjustment out.... resulting in 3-4 threads of the adjuster hanging out under the Rocker and prone to breakage over time.

Seems silly to me that if people have to bottom out the plunger in an HR Lifter to shut them up and get rpm.... as many do..... why wouldn't they just run a tight lash solid Roller ?

That's funny you mention that. We just talked about specs on the lifter bore this morning. He hasn't got to my motor yet but assured me he would completely spec the bore and the Trick Flow Lifters. If ain't in spec There won't be no bottoming out with him, he doesn't play the N- Rigging game. I guess if doesn't spec we'll go solid or find another block but he said  most of the big blocks he had done usually spec. He had more problems with Chrysler small blocks he said. Seems like they are a lot people running the Morel lifters with no problems and even read where somebody had 30,000 miles on their build. So there is another question? Are the problems with HR lifters just pertained to 1 certain lifter because it seems like 95% of the times these problems occur it's with the Comp HR lifters and that's a fact. They've had a lot problems and still continue to do so it seems. Seems like the Chevy BB guys have this Figured out.

[BSB67]

That's funny you mention that. We just talked about specs on the lifter bore this morning. He hasn't got to my motor yet but assured me he would completely spec the bore and the Trick Flow Lifters. If ain't in spec There won't be no bottoming out with him, he doesn't play the N- Rigging game. I guess if doesn't spec we'll go solid or find another block but he said  most of the big blocks he had done usually spec. He had more problems with Chrysler small blocks he said. Seems like they are a lot people running the Morel lifters with no problems and even read where somebody had 30,000 miles on their build. So there is another question? Are the problems with HR lifters just pertained to 1 certain lifter because it seems like 95% of the times these problems occur it's with the Comp HR lifters and that's a fact. They've had a lot problems and still continue to do so it seems. Seems like the Chevy BB guys have this Figured out.

I think you missed most of Bob's points.  Furthermore, Chrysler has no lifter bore spec for running aftermarket HR cams in their non-HR blocks from 40 years ago.

There is also this misconception that aftermarket "performance" parts are high quality, where the opposite is actually more the case.

And finally, your "fact" is not a fact unless you have actual data and appropriate analysis.

[pipeliner]

Thats some funny stuff right there. So give us some specs! Surely they should be some if your wanting to run HR lifters??? How many problems are associated with HR lifters that seem associated with the comp HR lifters? You can do the research yourself. Seems like all of them.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Thats some funny stuff right there. So give us some specs! Surely they should be some if your wanting to run HR lifters??? How many problems are associated with HR lifters that seem associated with the comp HR lifters? You can do the research yourself. Seems like all of them.

Give you specs? On what? There are none for hydraulic rollers in a standard block. What do you want? Several reputable builders have said its a problem and reccomended against it. What more do you want?

[justcruisin]

If the man wants to run a HR cam let him run it, it will probably be fine.

Personally I can't see the point, if you want a performance gain and are prepared to cough up for a roller set up why not go for the solid.

I guess the argument is that FT cams can go flat, true, but you can go a long way to help the situation and prevent a failure, I have been running the same fast rate FT hyd for 6 years without issue, it's not like a HR set up is without issues or limitations either.

Roll the dice and take your chances, pros and cons which ever way you go.

Just for interest by those in the know - does a street roller make that much more power than a equivalent FT.

[Paul G]

So this is what I see here on this lifter discussion.

Lets say a block has lifter bores that are in good condition, and a hydraulic roller lifter is used, the roller lifter will, over time, cause the bottom of the lifter bore to wear, the effect will be oil bleeding out of the lifter bore, getting past the lifter rather than maintaining proper pressure in the lifter, and cause the lifter to bleed down and not provide the lift it is supposed to be able to provide. Is this correct?

I can just imagine, as the lobe of the roller cam is coming around, it is applying a sideways load to the lifters roller. Where as a flat tappet, with a less aggressive lobe profile will not do this side load to the lifter. Just makes sense that a roller lifter will egg shape the bore over time. If the engine is babied, does not see high RPM, than the wear on the lifter bore may take a long time to become an issue, if at all.


Is this lifter bore wear problem evident on factory built roller motors coming in for rebuild? 

[pipeliner]

Thats some funny stuff right there. So give us some specs! Surely they should be some if your wanting to run HR lifters??? How many problems are associated with HR lifters that seem associated with the comp HR lifters? You can do the research yourself. Seems like all of them.

Give you specs? On what? There are none for hydraulic rollers in a standard block. What do you want? Several reputable builders have said its a problem and reccomended against it. What more do you want?

I guess I'll go back to running a purple cam or put a BBC in it with HL in it since they are the only ones that have it figured out. Imagine that. A few reputable Mopar builders had problems with a bad batch of HL from Comp and now nobody should run them LMFAO!

[pipeliner]

So this is what I see here on this lifter discussion.

Lets say a block has lifter bores that are in good condition, and a hydraulic roller lifter is used, the roller lifter will, over time, cause the bottom of the lifter bore to wear, the effect will be oil bleeding out of the lifter bore, getting past the lifter rather than maintaining proper pressure in the lifter, and cause the lifter to bleed down and not provide the lift it is supposed to be able to provide. Is this correct?

I can just imagine, as the lobe of the roller cam is coming around, it is applying a sideways load to the lifters roller. Where as a flat tappet, with a less aggressive lobe profile will not do this side load to the lifter. Just makes sense that a roller lifter will egg shape the bore over time. If the engine is babied, does not see high RPM, than the wear on the lifter bore may take a long time to become an issue, if at all.


Is this lifter bore wear problem evident on factory built roller motors coming in for rebuild?  

You better not Imagine. Why do you think they have been thousands of flat tappet cams gone flat? You don't have to worry about that problem with a HR cam. The HL should never egg shape, it's always riding on top of the roller. According to Joe there is no specs on lifter bore with HL so if you decide to go that route we all should be good to go. Hell just drop them in there and go So if you let a few guys scare you into running a flat tappet then by all means go that route but for me I'm going to take advantage of all of the good things a HR cam have to offer in a street car. If I was running a race car I may have went a different route. No matter what anybody says my machinist is one of the best in the country (not a reputable Mopar builder) and specs everything anally and that's the way it should be no matter what brand or type of a build it is. Im done with this post. Good luck with your build no matter what route you decide to go 

[Challenger340]

So this is what I see here on this lifter discussion.

Lets say a block has lifter bores that are in good condition, and a hydraulic roller lifter is used, the roller lifter will, over time, cause the bottom of the lifter bore to wear, the effect will be oil bleeding out of the lifter bore, getting past the lifter rather than maintaining proper pressure in the lifter, and cause the lifter to bleed down and not provide the lift it is supposed to be able to provide. Is this correct?

I can just imagine, as the lobe of the roller cam is coming around, it is applying a sideways load to the lifters roller. Where as a flat tappet, with a less aggressive lobe profile will not do this side load to the lifter. Just makes sense that a roller lifter will egg shape the bore over time. If the engine is babied, does not see high RPM, than the wear on the lifter bore may take a long time to become an issue, if at all.


Is this lifter bore wear problem evident on factory built roller motors coming in for rebuild?  

Factory built H/Roller engines coming in for rebuild, typically do NOT exhibit the wear problem because, ALL manu's LENGTHENED the Lifter Bores on the Block castings, (more wear area), and usually also repositioned the Oil Gallery within the Lifter Bores for the HR Application.   Go compare an "HR" Block to any of their pre-HR bretheren.

[Challenger340]

Thats some funny stuff right there. So give us some specs! Surely they should be some if your wanting to run HR lifters??? How many problems are associated with HR lifters that seem associated with the comp HR lifters? You can do the research yourself. Seems like all of them.

I have NO CLUE what your Machinist is talking about ?

"Spec" for Lifter to Lifter Bore clearance on a BB Mopar may not even be published ?

But generally speaking "spec" for Lifter clearance in a Bore is typically .001", which according to builder preferences may be adjusted slightly, with Solid Rollers for Race etc., sometimes Honed even higher.
But remember here....
With Hydraulic anything, the length of the sealing wall internal of the Lifter Bore against the Lifter itself plays a role in sealing, as does how ROUND the Lifter Bore is.

With BB Mopars.....
it is the ROUNDNESS at the Bottom of the Lifter Bores, and the DISTANCE between the low Oil Gallery and the bottom of the Lifter Bore that has gone away on old blocks.

Take a Flashlight and go INSPECT any old BB Mopar in the Lifter Bore @ bottom below the Oil Gallery:
1.) pay attention to WHERE the Oil Gallery is in the Lifter Bore, and the amount of Lifter Bore distance from the bottom of the gallery OUT
and
2.) Look for the "half-moon" wear pattern in that bottom of the Lifter Bore directly below the Oil Gallery(Short distance) area, where even the stock Flat Tappet Lifters these Blocks came with have worn them.

If you can't "see" it visually ?
Then use a small Bore gauge.... it is usually there in measurement.

[Challenger340]

Look, I am not saying you can't run an HR in a BB Mopar.... YOU CAN ! and many do with apparently no problems ? Although I am somewhat skeptical of what final Lifter preload they end up at ?

All I am saying.... is that you then later one of the unfortunate ones that DO encounter noisey HR Lifters ? or RPM problems ? in operation using "Normal" HR Lifter preload....  which seems to be a common complaint with HR's in BB Mopars ?

1.) Be prepared to adjust the HR Lifter plunger very close to bottomed out(within about .010" to .015")
and
2.) After the above cure.... it may also be a good idea to go buy longer pushrods so you don't have the extra 2 to 2 1/2 Threads on the Rocker Adjuster hanging out the bottom of the Rocker Arm over time in operation(they break off)

And the above then begs the question.... for me anyways, why not just run a Street type "Tight Lash" Solid Roller ?

[Challenger340]

Thats some funny stuff right there. So give us some specs! Surely they should be some if your wanting to run HR lifters??? How many problems are associated with HR lifters that seem associated with the comp HR lifters? You can do the research yourself. Seems like all of them.

Give you specs? On what? There are none for hydraulic rollers in a standard block. What do you want? Several reputable builders have said its a problem and reccomended against it. What more do you want?

I guess I'll go back to running a purple cam or put a BBC in it with HL in it since they are the only ones that have it figured out. Imagine that. A few reputable Mopar builders had problems with a bad batch of HL from Comp and now nobody should run them LMFAO!

Let's try this again OK ? ?
I was attempting to convey a "potential" HR installation problem many people have, or may in future encounter with HR's in BB Mopars.... that has NOTHING to do with the Lifters themselves... nor anything to "figure out" in the Lifter itself ?

It is the Blocks and potential wear in one area present ? that can compromise the otherwise fine HR Lifter's, or any Hydraulic Lifter's ability to function correctly ?

But for some reason while promoting the propaganda the Koolaid around HR's.... which NOBODY HERE is saying aren't just GREAT in other brands with different Oil gallery Locations and Lifter Bore location intersects.....
some people,
KEEP MISSING THE POINT around the specific to BB Mopars, Block/Lifter Bore wear and from the Oil Gallery intersect location out ?

I am NOT knocking HR's.... we run them all the time in other brands that YES... we have been requested to build as well. They work GREAT   !
Just say'in.....
with BB Mopars and HR Lifters.... CHECK closely in one area on the Block,(and often times even that is no guarantee), so be aware bottoming or very close to bottoming the lifter plunger may be the only answer in operation if problems are encountered..... then longer pushrods to correct the excessive adjuster thread exposure below the Rockers if that's what you have to do.(Run the plunger down)

[Paul G]

Why do you think they have been thousands of flat tappet cams gone flat?

You do know why the sudden and extreme failure of flat tappet cams occurred around 20 years ago right?  And what we do today to make up for the cause of the problem?

[PRH]

I think Bob did a nice job of spelling out the potential pitfalls of using a hyd roller cam in a BB mopar block.

If you decide to still try one in your own build, here is a test you can do when the long block is complete, but before you install the intake and valley cover.
You'll need to have the motor pretty much "done" with the exception of those two items, to the point where you can prime the oil system.

While running the priming tool, rotate the motor and observe how much leakage there is coming out from the bottom of each lifter bore. You'll want to run each lifter through it's full lift range, and usually the greatest leakage occurs when the lifter is closest to peak lift.
If you're using lifters that have a cutout around the lifter wheel, you might be pretty surprised at how much oil is coming out from the bottom of the lifter bore.

At that point, the light bulb should come on that less than 100% optimal performance out of your hyd roller lifter combo is a real possibility.

On the other hand, if you find very little oil running out from below the lifters throughout their lift cycle, you'll probably have satisfactory results.

I will say this, with today's oils and the availability of edm lifters, provided some amount of common sense is employed with regards to lobe selection, there isnt any real fear in my mind about running solid flat tappet cams.

Way less $$$, and way fewer parts to fail than a roller set-up.

[pipeliner]

Thanks for the information guys.

[pipeliner]

Thats some funny stuff right there. So give us some specs! Surely they should be some if your wanting to run HR lifters??? How many problems are associated with HR lifters that seem associated with the comp HR lifters? You can do the research yourself. Seems like all of them.

Give you specs? On what? There are none for hydraulic rollers in a standard block. What do you want? Several reputable builders have said its a problem and reccomended against it. What more do you want?

I guess I'll go back to running a purple cam or put a BBC in it with HL in it since they are the only ones that have it figured out. Imagine that. A few reputable Mopar builders had problems with a bad batch of HL from Comp and now nobody should run them LMFAO!

Let's try this again OK ? ?
I was attempting to convey a "potential" HR installation problem many people have, or may in future encounter with HR's in BB Mopars.... that has NOTHING to do with the Lifters themselves... nor anything to "figure out" in the Lifter itself ?

It is the Blocks and potential wear in one area present ? that can compromise the otherwise fine HR Lifter's, or any Hydraulic Lifter's ability to function correctly ?

But for some reason while promoting the propaganda the Koolaid around HR's.... which NOBODY HERE is saying aren't just GREAT in other brands with different Oil gallery Locations and Lifter Bore location intersects.....
some people,
KEEP MISSING THE POINT around the specific to BB Mopars, Block/Lifter Bore wear and from the Oil Gallery intersect location out ?

I am NOT knocking HR's.... we run them all the time in other brands that YES... we have been requested to build as well. They work GREAT   !
Just say'in.....
with BB Mopars and HR Lifters.... CHECK closely in one area on the Block,(and often times even that is no guarantee), so be aware bottoming or very close to bottoming the lifter plunger may be the only answer in operation if problems are encountered..... then longer pushrods to correct the excessive adjuster thread exposure below the Rockers if that's what you have to do.(Run the plunger down)

Ive already got the heads for the HR setup which is I think the 1.55 dual springs .If the bottom of my lifter bore is wore like a half moon then what are my options? You gave a real good explanation and I get it now. Thank you for that

[Challenger340]

Thats some funny stuff right there. So give us some specs! Surely they should be some if your wanting to run HR lifters??? How many problems are associated with HR lifters that seem associated with the comp HR lifters? You can do the research yourself. Seems like all of them.

Give you specs? On what? There are none for hydraulic rollers in a standard block. What do you want? Several reputable builders have said its a problem and reccomended against it. What more do you want?

I guess I'll go back to running a purple cam or put a BBC in it with HL in it since they are the only ones that have it figured out. Imagine that. A few reputable Mopar builders had problems with a bad batch of HL from Comp and now nobody should run them LMFAO!

Let's try this again OK ? ?
I was attempting to convey a "potential" HR installation problem many people have, or may in future encounter with HR's in BB Mopars.... that has NOTHING to do with the Lifters themselves... nor anything to "figure out" in the Lifter itself ?

It is the Blocks and potential wear in one area present ? that can compromise the otherwise fine HR Lifter's, or any Hydraulic Lifter's ability to function correctly ?

But for some reason while promoting the propaganda the Koolaid around HR's.... which NOBODY HERE is saying aren't just GREAT in other brands with different Oil gallery Locations and Lifter Bore location intersects.....
some people,
KEEP MISSING THE POINT around the specific to BB Mopars, Block/Lifter Bore wear and from the Oil Gallery intersect location out ?

I am NOT knocking HR's.... we run them all the time in other brands that YES... we have been requested to build as well. They work GREAT   !
Just say'in.....
with BB Mopars and HR Lifters.... CHECK closely in one area on the Block,(and often times even that is no guarantee), so be aware bottoming or very close to bottoming the lifter plunger may be the only answer in operation if problems are encountered..... then longer pushrods to correct the excessive adjuster thread exposure below the Rockers if that's what you have to do.(Run the plunger down)

Ive already got the heads for the HR setup which is I think the 1.55 dual springs .If the bottom of my lifter bore is wore like a half moon then what are my options? You gave a real good explanation and I get it now. Thank you for that

if you do find wear(half moon) present at the bottom of the Lifter Bore below the Oil Gallery intersect ?  I can't give you an actual  'spec' for acceptable vrs NON......  
Here at our Shop,
and because we DYNO everything BEFORE it leaves for the Customer(so it must be perfect)
we work on .001" Lifter to Bore clearance and ROUND within a ten thousandth for Hydraulics. If we find an extra .0005" to .001" in the area discussed ? then we Rec Solid type Lifter anything(Roller or Flat) vrs installing Hydraulic
or,
we BUSH the Lifter Bores, which is an excessively expensive option budgetarily in a stock Block for the Customer on a non-Race build.

IMO, (outside of my business)
IF you do find the Lifter Bore "wear" discussed ? and you are committed to the HR ?
Then I would say run it.... strangely to me, some DO manage to run just fine ? it's the lots that don't as the concern and I don't like "luck" as a factor to good outcomes.    
But then IF you do find later problems in operation ? Ticks ? or rpm breakdown you can't tune away ?  
Then try adjusting the HR Lifter Plunger DOWN until almost bottomed out(within .010" to .015"), basically running it very close to a solid.
The problem with the above cure....
is that screwing the Rocker Adjuster DOWN that far(usually another 2 full turns), exposes the extra 2 turns of adjuster plus the normal 1-1 1/2 = 3-4 threads of the adjuster BELOW the Rocker, where the root pitch in the adjuster threads is a weak point subject to excessive "leverage" loads in Rocker action.... and over time.... the Adjuster can BREAK OFF, which can potentially damage the Rocker/Pushrod/Cam or even the Lifter itself.

See why we can't do that at our Shop on a Customer Engine with our name on it ?
IF we encountered a problem on the Dyno.... we could probably get it through the Dyno session just fine running the plunger down, and out the door 'delivered' to the Customer just fine... get PAID,  but we just can't leave what we would KNOW is a potential adjuster "failure" waiting to happen for our Customer ?  especially AFTER having made up our own Pushrods(we do it in house) to maximize Valvetrain Geometry.
THAT would NOT be right when we are being PAID a guys hard earned money for our experience in these matter's, without getting into even the morality or ethics in playing stooopid to do so.
So,
we BUSH the Bores..... or we Rec a NON Hydraulic option, SOLID, (which a guy is basically doing by running the HR Plunger down if he has to anyways.)

On another Note....
we just went through this again at our Shop.
We service other "HotRod" Shops for their Machining requirements building Engines. They ship it to us... we Machine & Blueprint everything, then ship it back "ready to assemble" for them with Spec Sheet & Detailed Instructions for repeatability (we've Machined, cleaned, and mock up assembled BEFORE it goes back as a "U-BUILD IT" PKG)
Anyways,
this last Shop wanted a BB Mopar, which they called us with their needs including an HR Cam setup.
Now if this thread does not illustrate the GREAT LENGTHS I went through explaining the Block/HR pitfalls they may encounter with the HR Cam.... you get the picture here ?
Nonetheless,
they declined the Lifter Bore "Bushing" and insisted upon the HR for the Customer, full well in their minds that I was full of crap about HR's and believing the X-brand propaganda of NO-problem in a BB Mopar, and accepted full responsibility for the HR as their decision, even to the point of I made them "sign off" on the Invoice as INFORMED around any HR noise, ticks, or running problems, etc.
You know where this is going here right ?
You guessed it.... they assembled and DYNO'd, no problems or as I was told on the Dyno "it ran very quiet with good power".
Then,
they installed it in the Car(a $60K Barrett acquisition) and found some intermittent HR Lifter "noise" ?
Long story short.... and after their lengthy fix attempts over time... them phoning me, to which all I could say was "I told you so".... they eventually had to run the HR Plunger's down.

NOT saying this will happen on all HR BB Mopar Builds !
Just trying to get the info around the "potential" out there.... so that IF it occurs ? there is somewhat of a band-aid remedy for people(running the Lifter down), but more importantly stressing an area to check beforehand, KNOWLEDGE = Good outcomes for people.



 

[pipeliner]

Thank you so much for that explanation. I plain on doing exactly what you are saying.

[PRH]

I'll just add one other tidbit of info here.....

One of the reasons many are interested in the HR path is the potential added power from the use of the roller lifter.
More high lift area, more area under the curve, more lift per degree of duration, etc.

All this equates to more velocity at the valve, which requires more spring pressure to maintain proper control of the valve.

It's this increase in velocity along with the added spring pressure that puts added stresses on the hyd system in the lifter.
Because of these added stresses to the lifter, it's even more important that the lifter receives an adequate oil supply.

IMO, even if the lifter bores are showing the normal wear that would likely cause problematic leakage with a HR lifter, I think in most cases they would still work very satisfactorily with a hyd flat tappet cam..... If....... Lobe profiles with more moderate rates are chosen, which can be controlled with modest spring pressure, especially when combined with std rocker ratios........ And....... The "correct" BB Mopar hyd flat tappets are used.
And by that I mean the ones that have the narrow oil band located high on the lifter(Johnson A-976 style).

All of the leakage issues Bob is talking about here are also present with a SR application.
The difference is there isn't a hyd system inside the lifter that's relying on an uninterrupted supply of pressurized oil to allow it to function properly.

[pipeliner]

I'll just add one other tidbit of info here.....

One of the reasons many are interested in the HR path is the potential added power from the use of the roller lifter.
More high lift area, more area under the curve, more lift per degree of duration, etc.

All this equates to more velocity at the valve, which requires more spring pressure to maintain proper control of the valve.

It's this increase in velocity along with the added spring pressure that puts added stresses on the hyd system in the lifter.
Because of these added stresses to the lifter, it's even more important that the lifter receives an adequate oil supply.

IMO, even if the lifter bores are showing the normal wear that would likely cause problematic leakage with a HR lifter, I think in most cases they would still work very satisfactorily with a hyd flat tappet cam..... If....... Lobe profiles with more moderate rates are chosen, which can be controlled with modest spring pressure, especially when combined with std rocker ratios........ And....... The "correct" BB Mopar hyd flat tappets are used.
And by that I mean the ones that have the narrow oil band located high on the lifter(Johnson A-976 style).

All of the leakage issues Bob is talking about here are also present with a SR application.
The difference is there isn't a hyd system inside the lifter that's relying on an uninterrupted supply of pressurized oil to allow it to function properly.

Thanks Dwayne for the added explanation. If my lifter bores show the normal wear that's going to cause me problems I'll just send everything back and  go solid flat tappet. On another note. What do you like better with my build for an intake. I've already bought the RPM performer but now was thinking a street dominator? Thanks again everybody!

[cdr]

This is my low deck combo, it is solid FT cam, this is a street strip set up.   NO traction

4.380" bore  4.250 stroke 6.536 H beam rod   440 SOURCE STROKER KIT

(.040 over)  -24cc dish
 1.320"  9.9 to1 comp  
Indy single plane intake
Howards Cams​ solid flat tappet  .579 lift  248 @.050 duration
Trend Performance Products​  custom push rods
& tool steel solid lifters
440 source SUPER STEALTH heads flow 330 @ .650 lift,,, ALMOST Max Wedge port size.
THIS IS A STREET BUILD, yes the Charger has COLD A/C  3.54 rear gear, a518 overdrive with lock up torque converter
Holley 950 hp carb,, for now
Machine work done by G & G performance co in Tomball TX

[BSB67]

This is my low deck combo, it is solid FT cam, this is a street strip set up.   NO traction

4.380" bore  4.250 stroke 6.536 H beam rod   440 SOURCE STROKER KIT

(.040 over)  -24cc dish
 1.320"  9.9 to1 comp  
Indy single plane intake
Howards Cams​ solid flat tappet  .579 lift  248 @.050 duration
Trend Performance Products​  custom push rods
& tool steel solid lifters
440 source SUPER STEALTH heads flow 330 @ .650 lift,,, ALMOST Max Wedge port size.
THIS IS A STREET BUILD, yes the Charger has COLD A/C  3.54 rear gear, a518 overdrive with lock up torque converter
Holley 950 hp carb,, for now
Machine work done by G & G performance co in Tomball TX

Corrected numbers hand written?

[c00nhunterjoe]

Russ- Yes

[cdr]

Russ the correction was Wallace racing, his math did not add near as much HP as other formulas I found. Dragtimes & others show 121 mph corrected,we also had a 20mph head wind, hope to have some slicks by this fall & do some tuning.

[BSB67]

Very Nice.

[Paul G]

It's been two weeks since I spoke with the engine builders. Have not heard back from either of them yet.

[cdr]

Thanks Paul,keep us posted

[flyinlow]

Just out of curiosity , what does it cost to bush a RB Mopar ?

[c00nhunterjoe]

Just out of curiosity , what does it cost to bush a RB Mopar ?

Depends on the area, and machine shop quality. But figure around 1000.

[Paul G]

I got estimated prices back from 3 engine builders. All three are just shy of $14000 dollars for a complete engine. Allow another $3500 for the conversion from small block to big block, and the cost is just not justifiable with this car. 

[PRH]

Sounds like a SB stroker kit and some RPM heads for your current motor should be part of the new shopping list.

[1974dodgecharger]

I got estimated prices back from 3 engine builders. All three are just shy of $14000 dollars for a complete engine. Allow another $3500 for the conversion from small block to big block, and the cost is just not justifiable with this car. 

Its a tough decision that's for sure at that price......

[Paul G]

Staying small block? That will greatly reduce the cost. There is no expense for converting, a big plus.

My goals will have to change with a small block. Running mid 12's can only be accomplished by making no less than 525 CHP. Using the Wallace Racing calculator,

http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php

This calculator is spot on with what this car has already done on the quarter mile in Vegas, using WHP from a chassis dyno it has been on. My 4200# car ran a 14.9 at 91 mph, making 255 RWHP.

A streetable 408 can make how much power? It has to be power brake friendly, run cool in traffic with the A/C on, and still have an acceptable idle.

Using that Wallace racing calculator making 360 WHP will put the car in the low 13's. Using 20% drive line loss, that is making 450 CHP.

[cdr]

The Wallace calc, is flywheel HP with 10 % driveline loss .

[PRH]

Vegas is about a .25 deficit compared to what the calculators show(sea level).

While retaining a decent level of street manners, and suitable for running in traffic with the AC going, I feel that 450-ish is probably a practical limit/goal.
They can easily make way more power than that, but I'm not sure how well a "hotter" combo would fit in with the rest of your plans.

Aftermarket heads, solid flat tappet cam, etc.
Another option would be to find a magnum block, or the latest of the LA blocks that had the taller lifter bosses and then run a hyd roller cam.
If you got a magnum block you could use the aftermarket magnum style heads.

I'm figuring that type of build would run 100-103 @4200lbs at Vegas with a decent converter that's well matched to the motor.

[BSB67]

Vegas is about a .25 deficit compared to what the calculators show(sea level).

While retaining a decent level of street manners, and suitable for running in traffic with the AC going, I feel that 450-ish is probably a practical limit/goal.
They can easily make way more power than that, but I'm not sure how well a "hotter" combo would fit in with the rest of your plans.

Aftermarket heads, solid flat tappet cam, etc.
Another option would be to find a magnum block, or the latest of the LA blocks that had the taller lifter bosses and then run a hyd roller cam.
If you got a magnum block you could use the aftermarket magnum style heads.

I'm figuring that type of build would run 100-103 @4200lbs at Vegas with a decent converter that's well matched to the motor.

Its hard to make power without air.

[Paul G]

I found this at Indy Cylinder Head. It's a Magnum small block stroker. It makes great power for a small block, 520 HP @ 6000 RPM, 500 Torque @ 5000 RPM. The price is very reasonable if the website pricing is accurate. No conversion costs a big plus.

So what should I expect from this engine, or one like it built for me? Streetable? Pump gas friendly? Enough vacuum for power brakes? Run cool and idle somewhat nicely?

Indy Cylinder Head is a big name, how is the quality from them these days? 

http://www.indyheads.com/images/newla4.pdf

[cdr]

why not have PRH build you what you need ?

[alfaitalia]

....by the way....luvin' your new sig photo CDR !

[Paul G]

why not have PRH build you what you need ?

I got estimated prices back from 3 engine builders. All three are just shy of $14000 dollars for a complete engine. Allow another $3500 for the conversion from small block to big block, and the cost is just not justifiable with this car. 

Cost. The price for a pro built complete engine is not in my budget. Building a big block engine myself, from scratch, after machine work, would save maybe a few thousand, and would take quite a bit of time to finish. That is an option, and a learning opportunity which I enjoy. That Magnum 415ci small block looks good on paper. But may not be a good choice to run in a street car in Phoenix, °110 + for most of the summer.   

[cdr]

why not have PRH build you what you need ?

I got estimated prices back from 3 engine builders. All three are just shy of $14000 dollars for a complete engine. Allow another $3500 for the conversion from small block to big block, and the cost is just not justifiable with this car. 

Cost. The price for a pro built complete engine is not in my budget. Building a big block engine myself, from scratch, after machine work, would save maybe a few thousand, and would take quite a bit of time to finish. That is an option, and a learning opportunity which I enjoy. That Magnum 415ci small block looks good on paper. But may not be a good choice to run in a street car in Phoenix, °110 + for most of the summer.   

I am talking about him building a small block, I am pretty sure he builds them also ? I could be wrong.