Choosing an engine to build

[c00nhunterjoe]

You already have everything smallblock... why not stroke that? The 4 inch stroke kits make for pretty nasty motors and then when you pop the hood... "its JUST a small block"

[Nacho-RT74]

I was to post about that... that could be a cool build

[Paul G]

You already have everything smallblock... why not stroke that? The 4 inch stroke kits make for pretty nasty motors and then when you pop the hood... "its JUST a small block"

I have thought about that. The 408's can get to 450 HP. How streetable is a 450 HP small block? Would 450 HP get me where I want to go? mid 12's?

[Paul G]

This showed up locally. What did he do wrong? I wonder why he is selling?

https://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/pts/6130656631.html

I know that buying an engine from someone is risky.

[BSB67]

There are good running motor home engines that can be purchased for under $1000. These are known to be low compression, low HP. What would be required to increase the compression? Can it be done with different pistons? Or is decking the block the only way?

440 blocks are all the same, it make no difference what it was in.  The path and parts are the same

[flyinlow]

I built a 446 back in the 1970's (yea I'm frickin old) using six pack rods and Speed pro pistons. They where the hot ticket then. They did the job.

The lighter LY rods (non six pack) and lighter SRP pistons where recommended for my current engine. Easier on bearings.

The oil pan on the Craigslist engine won't fit your Charger.

[Paul G]

So when looking at core engines, is there a way to tell how much wear it has? With the head on I cant look for a ridge. Will there be the same amount of ridge on the bottom side, will it be visible with the oil pan off?

I found this a few hours away. It is a running engine sitting on the ground. The guy says he got it from a motor home. It has a Chrysler tag stating it was a factory new block in 1979. He says he resealed it, inside looked new, put new oil pump on it, etc. Says it wont fit in his 53 Chrysler so he cant use it. He will trade it for small Hemi heads for the Chrysler.

https://flagstaff.craigslist.org/pts/6127816995.html

[c00nhunterjoe]

You already have everything smallblock... why not stroke that? The 4 inch stroke kits make for pretty nasty motors and then when you pop the hood... "its JUST a small block"

I have thought about that. The 408's can get to 450 HP. How streetable is a 450 HP small block? Would 450 HP get me where I want to go? mid 12's?

Dont think of it as big block and small block. Think of it as bore and stroke vs headflow.

[Paul G]

I guess that answers that question. 440 cubic inches is better than 408. Bigger is better.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I guess that answers that question. 440 cubic inches is better than 408. Bigger is better.

Bigger is better only works if you have the headflow to support "bigger" the 408 has mkre stroke then a 440 amd can be built to have alot more low end torque. 600hp is no problem depending on the combination. 475-500 streetable hp is easily capable out of the smallblock stroker kits. It comes down to what you want.

[Paul G]

I got a price a while back from a local engine builder to stroke my 360 to a 408. He quoted over $7000 for 450 HP and said going with more power would not be street friendly. It didnt make sense to go that route back then when 525 HP is easy with a stock stroke 440 and makes for a nice cruiser.

I see stroked small block chevys all over the place making between 500 and 600 horse. Just dont see build combos for small block Mopar. It would be a great option for me.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I got a price a while back from a local engine builder to stroke my 360 to a 408. He quoted over $7000 for 450 HP and said going with more power would not be street friendly. It didnt make sense to go that route back then when 525 HP is easy with a stock stroke 440 and makes for a nice cruiser.

I see stroked small block chevys all over the place making between 500 and 600 horse. Just dont see build combos for small block Mopar. It would be a great option for me.

Cylinder heads, cylinder heads, cylinder heads. You can have 200 psi water in the fire hose, but if the hose has a kink in it, the water wont flow.

[Paul G]

You know what. I really dont know or trust any machinist here in town. I am going to call Duane Porter tomorrow and talk to him about a small block. He might have a build plan that gets me where I want to be. That will save a ton of money not converting.

[chargerbr549]

My personal opinion if your looking to have a mild street and strip engine with good driveability that makes good torque and horsepower and is normally aspirated cubic inches is king with good flowing heads, of course eveybody's definition of what mild and streetable is are different. Look at BSB67's big block setup for reference it runs pretty damn good with hp ex manifolds, tight converter and 3.23 gears. If your mainly going drag racing cubic inches aren't as much of a concern since you would basically build a solid bottom end and put great flowing heads on it, loose converter, deep gears, cam with lots of duration and overlap, etc. but that tends to kill driveability or just add boost.

[flyinlow]

So when looking at core engines, is there a way to tell how much wear it has? With the head on I cant look for a ridge. Will there be the same amount of ridge on the bottom side, will it be visible with the oil pan off?

You want to check bore condition, bore size and taper. You need to pull the heads.  You can measure the pistons with the pan off.

Starting with a 4.32" bore. Most engines with use will have a ridge where the rings top out. A taper, the top wears faster. That's where the power is made. Scrapes/ gouges are bad. Some bores can have the ridge cut out and honed.
However , most builders bore and hone for a clean start. .030 over is popular (446 cu.in)  You could do .010,.020,etc up to .060 (452 cu.in) over with a good block. Anything besides std. and .030 are custom pistons which cost more.
Sonic testing the bare block will determine how far over each bore can go.

[BSB67]

.......if your looking to have a mild street and strip engine with good driveability that makes good torque and horsepower and is normally aspirated cubic inches is king with good flowing heads, of course eveybody's definition of what mild and streetable is are different.

This.

1) Get clear on what streetable means to you
2) Get clear on exactly what your budget is
3) The hp will be what #1 and #2 above will allow it to be.

One of my general rules: achieving 1.0 hp/cu.in. in Russ' version of streetable (mild hyd cam, small tube header, 2.5 exhaust, 850 cfm, dual plane alum intake, cleaned up alum heads, 10:1 CR, stock converter, 3.23 gear) is not hard, but needs to be done right. Retaining small cam characteristics and achieving 1.10 or 1.15 hp/cu.in. is doable but it will cost a little more and the build becomes more aggressive.

500 hp from a 510 cu.in engine is easy and it will drive and feel stock.  500 hp from a 273 will feel like a Pro Stock engine (exaggerating of course)

[firefighter3931]

Mike's build would be ideal for your car Paul....same kind of car ; sleeper/cruiser build that'll idle all day long in traffic and boil the tires at will.  

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,43911.0.html


I have something similar planned for my 70 R/T and have a 493 rotating assembly sitting on the shelf. It's going to be a retirement project 5 years from now. 



Ron

[pipeliner]

Wow, the decisions. From small blocks to big block strokers with stealth heads 😂

[Paul G]

Wow, the decisions. From small blocks to big block strokers with stealth heads 😂

Yes, it is overwhelming. Especially for a guy like me who over analyzes.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Over analyzing when you are about to spend 10,000 on an engine is not a bad thing. Ask questions. Look at other builds, ask more questions, and be crystal clear on exactly what you want before pulling the trigger.

[Bad B-rad]

 


Good advice!!!
I have built a few Big Blocks in the past, last one 12 or so years ago.
So I thought I had a good idea on what I wanted and how to do it, but after asking questions and getting advice from guys like c00nhunter joe, and BSB67 and others I changed my tune completely!
The parts that are out now have changed the game so much from my last build 12+ years ago.
The off the shelf stroker kits, and the quality and weight of parts, and heads that are now available. Very different from years ago.
I now am just gonna rock my stock 383 4bbl until I can build a "B" block based stroker engine.

Much better to change your mind now then after you spend a ton of cash and then find out you are not happy and have to start all over. So like was said above once you know what you want out of your engine, do some homework.
And there are some very smart guy on here who will give great FREE advice!!!!!!!

[randy73]

I am getting ready to attempt my first engine build. I want to get in the >500 HP range. Challenger 340 has a recipe to do this on this site. Most likely that is what I will try to follow as closely as I can using local machinists.

This should push the car in to the 12 second range. But mostly it will be respectable on the street next to the next Mustang GT or Challenger RT that knows he can beat the old dog. Right now there is no contest. The 360 barely gets in to the 14 second range on the track.

So choosing the block to build raises questions. Should I hunt down the cheapest core I can find or get one that is currently running? Talking with some local guys who have some experience engine building, I am told that even a running engine needs to be torn down and sent to a machine shop for inspection and prep. So find the cheapest, or spend more on something that runs?

I can buy a 500 HP crate engine for what, $8K to $9K right now? What is a real world estimate to build an engine doing most of the assembly myself, with some experienced help of course?

Finding a decent Block core to begin work with, is becoming one of the biggest challenges facing most guys these days ? At least around here anyways. Out of the last 5 we pulled apart only 1 was std, and 1 was already .060" = JUNK !

So I dunno if running is good or bad anymore ? Because all of the above were pulled from various "running" Vehicles/Motorhomes, etc
Because.....
I mean LOTS of used up already .030/.040 Blocks running fine, some clean @ .060 W/Sonic Test, but less heat sink for cooling with A/C and high underhood temps, and decent std/clean @ .010" Forged Cranks are getting impossible.
So IMO,
* Find a good 440 Block first with whatever you have to do(make sure you keep the hardware, seal ret, T/Cover, Bolts etc), get it cleaned and rough Bored(see where the Bore cleans)
* Make decisions for a balanced rotating assembly including Crank(this will need checked/Pin-Fitted/Adjust Rod Clrcs)
* Finish the Block Machining(Hone W/T-Plate, Surface Decked, Mainline Checked or Honed W/ARP Studs)
* For 500 hp ? I still think Stealths are just fine(with re-done V/Angles) for the stock appearance, or the Sidewinder's from Marsh Perf. (if you don't need the "sleeper" look)
* Anything BB 440 with an honest 10.1:1 and something 240'ish @ .050 should get you the 500hp/low-mid 500's Trq on the entry level aluminums(with better Angles).... anything Stroker just pulls some more out of the limited heads, but more importantly the BB TORQUE curve for the big car.
Both are all done low 5,000's rpm.... and real "leave her in Drive" type deals, let the Auto shift by itself, nonetheless, you may be pleasantly surprised just how quick that stuff is ?

Good Luck with the Build ! 

Can't you re-sleeve a block?

[pipeliner]

I'm trying to get my car back on the road or I would have went stroker on my 440. The SST T-56 Magnum with billet flywheel, hydraulic set up, new Hurst 6-speed pistol grip and clutch swallowed up $7500 of my budget lol but for what you are wanting if you decided to go with a 440, a stroker would seriously be a waist of money. Find a good 440 steel crank engine, turn the crank, put ARP rod bolts on the ly rods and some light weight pistons and that baby will last a lifetime.  Get a set of Trick Flow 240 heads, some good Rockers and a elderbrock RPM performer intake with whatever Carb and cam choice you want and you'll easily be over the 500 HP range and you'll even same some money to buy a nice set of TTI Headers for it lol. Yeah there's more Than that involved in it but you get the picture. It's good to over analyze and this process in deciding a build drove me crazy. There is a lot of good advice on here and I have taken it all in. You just have to decide for yourself what route is best for you. I have to go now just got a text that said my paint supplies and using PPD Deltron is going to be close to $3k. It never ends. Good luck

[Paul G]

Ok, talked to a pro engine builder today. He builds engines for a local restorer, and he is recommended by some people in the local Mopar club. First thing I did was explain what I have. Then what I want, which is to outrun the the next GT, RT, SS or whatever comes up. My goal is to run a mid 12's quarter. We discussed what RPM the engine would have to spin up to with the 3.91 gears to get me through the traps at around 120 MPH. He said this engine will get me to 6000 RPM where I need to be with no problem.

He suggests a stroker big block. It can cruise in the St Patricks day parade with 110° heat with the AC on, and run 12's in the quarter.

His build would be for a complete engine, oil pan to carb. Dyno tested and tuned, and I can watch.

Hydraulic roller cam and valve train
10.5 ish compression ratio to run on pump gas
Trick Flow heads
Pro form or Holley 850 carb

He said using a 400 or 440 block is about the same regarding price and power output. The B engine would make fitting it under my hood much easier. Although the RB may have the air cleaner stick up through the hood which is very cool. Pros and cons to a B or RB build?

His price is going to be in the $8500 range, give or take. That sounds fantastic.

[Paul G]

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