Question about body filler and application

[timinator]

I'm getting ready to strip paint on my 69 Charger and apply a glaze coat of filler. What is the sequence for this and who has had bad experiences or good experiences with certain types of filler, (i.e. brand names, fiberglass content, etc.) The filler is to straighten out minor imperfections such as ripples and minor door dings, etc. My questions are
1. sand with what grit for filler to stick?
2. do I need metal prep first after sanding on bare metal to prevent rust or will this cause adhesion problems for the filler?
3. What's a good filler to use?
4. Do I need a glazing filler afterwards or is it best to go right to a primer surfacer?
5. Do you use a "glazer" filler after the primer surfacer?
6. When do you dry sand and or wet sand?
I want to have the car in primer and ready to shoot paint by a body shop. Any recommendations or horror stories of what to avoid? Thanks

[Bandit4142]

The only recommendation I can make is to talk to the bodyshop that you plan to use before you start "final" prep.  Make sure whatever products you are using will be compatible or acceptable to them.   Some bodyshops are very particular on what they will or can paint over.  Sorry I can't be helpfull on your other questions.

[Ryan]

hi, hopfulley I can help.

First off if you will just be filling minor dings and such then evercoat's Rage Gold is what you want. Alot of people swear by that filler. You want to have the metal sanded with 36-40 grit prior to application. Make sure it is clean and dust free. You can celan the metal with paint thinner, or somthing like that, just make sure it is all gone before you apply filler.

Sand the filler to get you desired shape with 40 grit on a block. Then take some Evercoat Metal Glaze and apply it to the area that has filler. Dont coat it, just press it into the 40 grit scratches then sand it with 120 grit then you are ready to prime that area. If you are going to be putting any filler over weald seams, or areas prone to rust use evercoats everglass its a fiberglass reinforced filler and is very strong and water resistant.

Also never wet sand filler. Water will soak into it and get to the metaland cause rust and you dont want that.

When you are done doing the body work apply your primer. Let the primer sit for a week. Then appy guide coat and start block sanding. If you start finding low spots apply the glazing putty their to even it all out. Then apply some more primer and finish sand. You want to start block sanding with 120 grit dry to get the car really straight. Then reprime and guide coat and wet sand with 400 grit. Then you are ready for paint.

[69 OUR/TEA]

Hello timinator,before I get ready to give my 2 cents of advice,I have a couple fo questions for you!!!  How much experience with bodywork do you have?,what bodywork tools do you have ?,and is the car still  complete with paint on it ?   Because you may be in for a shock when you uncover it,and after you start this project,depending on what level of quality you are after will determine how long of a process you are in for.But I can tell you even for a halfway decent job you will be looking at well past 100-150 hrs.I only use PPG products so when you start I can only give you a product list of what I would personally use.

[timinator]

As far as my experience with bodywork, I have none! But, considering the conditions the car was in, I couldn't make it any worse. What I have done is get instructional DVDs and read plenty of books and articles. I know that's no substitute for experience but I've seen body shops charge a fortune and still screw things up. I figured I could mess it up for free. It seems careful planning and patience is important. I just finished replacing the trunk, outer wheelhouses, trunk extensions, both quarters, tail panel and lower valence. I've stitch welded everything and ground them down. To be honest, I am surprised at how well it turned out so it's given me confidence to continue. The gaps are perfect and panel alignment is right on. So I know what's underneath because everything has been replaced. I'm going to have some friends who do bodywork come over and show me how to properly apply filler and block sand, etc. I'm sure I'll screw it up but I will learn in the process and start over if I have to to get it right. I'll have them check it during the process to correct any errors. I can't afford to pay a shop to do it and I want to learn how anyway so this has been a great project. So, I just wanted to get some input from you guys on what works well as far as materials and what to avoid before I jump in. Just trying to gather all the info that I can first.

[timinator]

To answer the rest of the questions. I have basic body tools, hammer, dolly, DA sander, inline sander, grinders, polishers, spray guns, 60 gal compressor to sand and apply primer surfacer etc. I don't have the sanding blocks yet but what I don't have, I'll buy. The car once again is complete and paint has been stripped down so no nasty surprises waiting anymore. I found a few (actually a lot) when I started. Example. Left rear quarter had rolled up socks between wheel housing and quarter panel to support bondo that was used to "repair" rusted out wheel lip. Nice! Like I said, I couldn't screw it up any worse than it already was!

[69 OUR/TEA]

I give guys like you alot of support and credit as this is how I started,I jumped right in!!!! If you can unlock that hidden talent within you,you will only get better with time and more projects you take on.I have tried to show numerous friends this trade and some just can't get it ,others took off with it.Post any ?'s during your process if you get stuck or just want some advice.

[bill440rt]

timinator, KUDOS to you for tackling this type of project!!! As you are finding out, it is not an easy task.

I would be here for hours if I had to give step by step instructions, but some of the basics are:
Fill welded seams with a fiberglass based filler. They are waterproof, & will prevent future rust by forming a moisture barrier. For visible seams (valence to 1/4 end caps, upper rear body panel, door jambs, etc), I like to use 3M's Drip-Chek seam sealer.
Before doing actual plastic work, I like to prime the car with PPG's DP epoxy primer. It seals the metal, & forms a good base for the filler to stick to. It will actually adhere better & featheredge better than if you put it directly over metal.
Evercoat's Rage Gold works great. It fills nice, levels as it cures, and sands nicely.
Sand with 36-40 grit, and finish off with 80-grit.
Evercoat's Polyester glazing putty works great over this filler. A thin skim coat is all you need. I sand this with 80-grit.
You can go over this next with a filler primer, like Evercoat's Uro-Fill. I'm finding this primer very nice to use, and is reasonably priced.
Or, you can go the more expensive route & use a sprayable body filler before the filler primer. I'm using this stuff on my current project, & is really the trick to getting the body lazer straight with crisp lines. I'm using Standox's PE Spray Filler, but Evercoat also makes a similar product. It's not cheap, & you need a special gun with a big tip to spray it. There are no spreader marks to sand out, & it goes on even since it's sprayed on. I start blocking with 80, and finish with 100-180. Then I'm ready with the filler primer.
I use filler primer in 2 stages. First, I'll prime the car & dry sand with a long board with 180. Then, I'll prime again with another 3 coats. I'll sand this wet with 320 to crack the surface, & finish with 400 wet.
Then, it is ready for sealer & paint. I'll use PPG's epoxy primer again thinned out per the instructions for use as a sealer. This comes in white, red, blue/green, gray, & black depending on what color your spraying. I'll be painting my project Sublime Green, so I may just go with the white sealer to make the color "pop" more.

Good luck with your project!!!

[terrible one]

Just thought I would pop in to tell you guys that are contributing information that it really is great stuff! I will be doing all of my own bodywork (after replacing sheetmetal) and will definitly look back to this thread and others like it for information. 

[Drop Top]

Most body fillers of today are not made to go over bare metal. They are made tpo go over sealer/ primer. The only body filler that is intended for using on bare metal is The old fashion lead, Metal to Metal or Direct to Metal. I dont recomend any type of filler with fiberglass in it. It leaves air pockets that will cause problems latter down the road. Its also very hard to work with. For heavy fill areas I would sugjest metal to metal or something simular. Then shoot a good sealer over that then a good blocking primer. Then where you have small fill areas. I like to use Rage Gold. How are you stripping the car? will all the paint be off? Are you going to take out all the body filler that is on the car already? These questions need to be ansewerd before I can really give any more better advice then this.

[69 OUR/TEA]

Hello again timinator,O.K.,here I go with my 2 cents,not trying to start a debat with anyone on proper bodywork technique..First off let me give you my background experience.I started off as you are going to,in 1988,and let me say since then the products have come a long way.Back then laquer primer was what was used,very thin and  unstable product,and with that you had to carry out your sanding very far as for scratches not to show up later.Because of this I got myself used to getting the plastic as straight as possible as NOT to count on the primer to take in your imperfections or slight waves.By doing this and continuing to use this practice only made the cars I've done come out that much nicer,straighter,and easier with the  introduction of polyester primers,and high solid urethane primers.Secondly within the group of friends that I am  involved with in the paint/bodywork field,one is actually a PPG paint rep,so I do not need to travel far to get knowledge or have questions answered on what products are  compatable with each other.With that said here is a process that I would follow from the bottom up:                                                               Beleiving that your car is bare metal,sand bare metal with 80 grit,then to 180 grit.This really cleans the surface.Next I use DX 579(acid etch),get tech sheets and follow instructions carefully.For applying plastic body filler,even though plastic filler has a great bite on epoxy primer,I go right on the metal,heres why....first off if you are going to epoxy primer the bare metal surface,(using PPG DPLF epoxy primer),you'd better be using DP 401 catalist (slow) NOT DP 402 .DP 401  has an induction time of 30 minutes,be sure to follow.Secondly they recommend 3 mills for them to warranty adhesion to bare metal,which is about 1 mill per coat,so three coats,and anyone that uses DP knows it would take days to dry,even ouside in the sun.So you going to fill a ding,dent,wave,whatever,you apply the body filler over the epoxy,it dries,you start blocking it,now your breaking thru the epoxy and expose bare metal again,and you know you are going to have to use multiple coats of plastic to get it straight,so are you going to epoxy between every coat of body filler?If you don't ,this has happened,you can get ring around the spot where the bodyfiller is.This is why I do not epoxy the surface prior to body filler.Now,the plastic I like to use seems to be the favorite of everyone,RAGE GOLD .Since you should not be filling deep dents,as this is not a good practice,you should be applying in thin layers.When the sanding time comes,I NEVER use 36 or 40 grit,as it seems to just gouge into it as apposed to sanding it down.I start with 80 grit with a DA sander to break the surface ,then whatever appropriate block ,80 grit ,then got to 150 grit.When I think I am sanding the last coat of plastic,I will carry out to 220 grit.Not to avoid sand scracthes,although it helps,it makes a smoother surface for you to feel if you got the plastic real straight and featheredged good !!! Here is a tip,if you can't determine what you are feeling,put a piece of paper towel between your hand and feel the surface like that,as it will magnify the highs,lows,waves,etc.Now assuming your body work is all done and you are ready to prime,here is my next steps.I use PPG ETCH PRIME 1791,spray on the bare metal only,not onto body filler,(little overspray is ok).Next I use PPG NCP 271,two or three coats,which are 2 mills each,achieving 6 mills,which after sanding,you are supposed to leave at least 2 mills.Here is the reason still NOT using DPLF epoxy primer.If you are still left with some imperfections,now you can use PPG OMNI MX polyester primer,this does not like to be on top of DPLF epoxy,although it would work,don't take the chance,it has a good bite on the epoxy,BUT this epoxy is not a thru cure product,and the ingrediant "METHYL ISOBUTYL KEYTONE" in the MX  in some cases I've seen,is what actually travels thru the epoxy and caused it to release off the under layer.NCP 271 is the solid foundation for MX polyester primer to be on.Like I said ,it would work,but is it worth the risk???For the topcoat primer over the polyester,go back with NCP 271 for the final sanding primer/sealer.Sorry ,but I diissagree about going over 80 grit,  NO WAY !!!!!!!!!!  Urethane primer,no matter who's brand ,is going to shrink or settle into scratches that deep.Is it honestly going to take you that much longer to slap on some finer grit paper and block a little more? With the hundreds of cars I've done or been involved,doing it in this process,NONE have ever experienced scratches appearing later,or plastic body filler falling off.Watching my friend go to shops to resolve issues ,have usually ended up being the user NOT the product,do what the tech sheets say,don't abuse the product,proper drying times are very important.Not worth talking about the paint process yet as you are probably going to have someone else paint it.If and when you have questions about that,I will try and answer for you. Food for thought,the paint store you deal with sells you the product,the reps are the ones that have to be trained to decide what happened when a product failed in order to issue a warranty.

[Todd Wilson]

Most body fillers of today are not made to go over bare metal. They are made tpo go over sealer/ primer. . I like to use Rage Gold.

[Drop Top]

I don't disagree with the majority of your post. What I like to do is get the metal straight first and use as little Plastic Filler as possable in the first place. When I start blocking. I use blocking primer, I use a stick that looks alot like a paint stick and block by hand at least 3 times with differant grits of paper (wet). Spraying blocking primer inbetween each blocking. This is the only way it will get absolutlly staight. Air tools even in the best hands will not do the job that hand blocking will do. My cars never come home from a show emty handed.

As far as experance goes. I said it before, but your new here so ... I'm almost 48 I've been painting sence 13 years old. I met an old customizer in the early 90's And worked for him for over 4 years then went home and worked on my restorations into the evenings making my customers happy. Hes in 4 Hall of Fames. Matel fastioned many models and Hot Wheels after his cars. One of witch I bought from him and still have to this day. His name is Bill Cushenbery. After he retired he worked out of my shop off and on for fast money, entil he got cancer and passed away. We became very close over the years and He tought me very much. I have my own restoration shop and have been doing very well with it for well over 10 years. I have at least a years waiting list to get into my shop. I see no signs of slowing. I do mostlly Mopars but I Only have 2 Mopars in the shop right now. I have 7 jobs going right now and each job is a ground up, some with extream metal work to not so extream. The last 2 streat rods have had extream frame modifications that we do here in house. Most of these cars will go well over $15,000 before being done. Some will get into the $100,000 range. Needless to say I get the cars that are on the rare side and the ones that nobody else will touch.

Like I said before I agree with alot of what you have to say and I like PPG products very much. Although I do other use other products that are a bit less expensive but do everybit as good of a job. There are some products that I would never use. I'm one of those shops that charge time and materials. So it dosent really matter what materials I use. I use whats best for me and the way the weather/humidity permits in my area. Witch is a very big deal when it comes to choosing witch hardner you use in PPG's sealers and primers. Not to mention in their clears.

[69 OUR/TEA]

Hello droptop,first,nice to meet you,yes you are a little older than me and obviously this is your profession.As I stated I have been involved with body and paint since 1988,as a hobby,love for cars(mostly mopars,even though I have a few others),and just like how why these members are going to take on their restos,saving money.My regular profession,day job,is not this,I come home after work and also do this into the evenings.Since I have been registered on this site,I have mostly just sat back and read posts and replys,but just until recently that I am in the finishing stages on my own car,I have been doing some posts to give the members something to look at,and also try and give some advice to those in need.Just as you read some replys to ? about how they should be doing something,I also see this and know that I was once in that need of an answer,but most of my process of how I do something is from the early stages of this trade,doing something in the wrong fashion,seeing it fail,and know not to do that again!! Hard way to learn.So I would like to try and point these people in the right direction,with any knowledege I have, so they also can achieve great results and be proud they did it themself.There is always going to be a difference in the steps of doing the  bodywork,and products used,but end result,after it is painted,cut and buffed,and these people have these cars all completed,do not want to see things moving,scratches showing up,etc.I agree with you about using other products too,I prefer the old DP rather than the new DPLF,so I use omni epoxy.In the past ,for a couple years I was using Mar-Hyde Ultimate 2K primer,it worked good for me also.I also like using the omni MX polyester primer as well.Even though there are these glazing puttys out there,and they probably do work,I am not big on them,and just don't use them.I am always going to be a perfectionist as to how the plastic work gets straight as possible ,without deep scratches to fill ,not relying on high fill primers to take in my sins.To me,with the introduction of these products it has made alot of bodymen start cutting corners,getting it close,and telling themself "the primer will take it in".I'm not saying I don't use these products,but if you can get your work as close as possible,then it makes it that much easier to get a really straight car.Sorry to ramble on so much,so I'll catch you again some time.

[bill440rt]

69,
I respect your answer about your techniques, and the progress you've done on your car as well.
Like yourself I am also a former auto body trade worker now turned hobbyist. I just couldn't do it every day any more. I get much more satisfaction doing it for myself, when I want to.
I also started in the late '80's like you, and learned with DuPonts Fill-n-Sand primer (remember THAT??? Egads!). The new urethane primers & epoxies are a vast improvement. I try to get the body as straight as possible with Rage and Evercoat's Polyester. I really like to use Standox's Spray Filler in between, before I use a filler primer. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't use a primer-filler directly over 80-grit scratches either, that is why I use Standox's Spray Filler (it is NOT a primer, but can be applied over bare metal cut-throughs), first & finish that off with 180 before 2 blocking stages of a urethane filler-primer. The sprayable body filler can almost be used instead of the polyester glazing putty, it's that thick. Some people I know use it to fill even dings on hail jobs.
Last car I did has won numerous best paint, best in show awards, etc, & a Silver in the OE Certified at the Nats, so I feel pretty comfortable with my techniques.
The '69 I'm doing now is gonna be a modern hot rod to DRIVE. I'll be asking you for much input, if you don't mind, as it's been a while since I sprayed PPG.

[69 OUR/TEA]

No problem ,would love to help whenever I can.I don't know everything(who does),but as I have said before,my good friend is a rep,and I'm sure he could answer just about anything I shoot at him.BTW,just spoke to him tonight about when I can get in the booth with my car,it will be all sanded and ready for next week,can't do it until the weekend of MAY 14th.This suks,I want to see color on it!!!