305 Found

[wingman(22)]

Check out Hotrod.com

[held1823]

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/found-last-wing-car/

[TheAutoArchaeologist]

You guys told me it was fake when I shot it a few years ago.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hemipwr70/albums/72157642562292195/page3



Ryan

[wingman(22)]

I saw this a few years ago and it was believed to be dads car but maybe a 500. But after a lot of research and dissecting we proved it to be the 305.

[Aero426]

Ryan, Believe we said that there was not enough visible in your photos to make a determination.   Door bars in your photo are home built by Goober and Gomer.  You cannot go by paint on the body or holes in the tops of the quarters.  Or considering where you were visiting at the time. (Ask Bill how his deal with those guys worked out.)  

Back to the present.  The Al Rogers article is short on facts (as in none) as to how the car was determined to be "THE" car.  It's a pretty bold statement.   I seem to remember reading that Steve Atwell thought he had the 305 car (no, he doesn't).  

The car clearly is a 1969 Nichels chassis or a 68 updated with a 1969 dry sump K-frame.  The firewall and floor from the torsion bar crossmember forward is changed.  The interior cage is changed.  Under dash X brace and PITA bars are gone. The Nichels dash is gone.  None of these are deal breakers.   But they are not original thus make it harder to be tied to 1970 or '71 photos.  The red and gold body hanging on it is not likely original.   Those are the facts as I see them.  I know it's a real Nichels car.

Bill, I will respectfully ask.  What has been found to determine it is one of the Rossi cars?   And what makes it the 305?  

[C5X DAYTONA]

I looked at this car in 1995 at Jack McCoy's shop.  Took lots of photos of it just after the Magnum body was cut off.   Was offered the car for 25k.....with the Hemi.   I just wish I knew what I was looking at then.  All I knew is it had 68-70 B-body floors and rockers.   Bill, can I drive it on a race track?  You know...To return the favor..     

[wingman(22)]

Yes sir you can. But only 55 

[C5X DAYTONA]

Oh,  that is more than fine with me.   I get scared easily.

[tan top]

interesting stuff 

[68pplcharger]

 

[1RareBird]

Very cool find, looking forward to hearing about the details that pinpoint this car as the 305 chassis.  On a side note, it wasn't the last wing car,  I would think that title belongs to the Bettenhausen daytona.

[Aero426]

On a side note, it wasn't the last wing car,  I would think that title belongs to the Bettenhousen daytona.

Last wing car in NASCAR is the claim.    But to your point, what about 1972?     

[1RareBird]

Ah, didn't see that before you pointed it out. It was the last in NASCAR.  Was there another wing car after the Betenhausen car was built? Trying to recall....

[Aero426]

Ah, didn't see that before you pointed it out. It was the last in NASCAR.  Was there another wing car after the Betenhausen car was built? Trying to recall....

Unser #5 Superbird was new for 1972.   In terms of build, the 305 would be an existing car carried over.     Bettenhausen was also an older car that got a wing and a front clip.    

But again, the claim is "last raced in NASCAR".    

[Highbanked Hauler]

 Thats not the same car that was being built as a Bobby Allison  no. 22 car is it ?

[tan top]

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/found-last-wing-car/

Check out Hotrod.com

pictures & article below by Al Rogers 2nd March 2017 ,  from  hotrod/ hotrodnetwork  in the above link

[tan top]

 

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[Highbanked Hauler]

 SO when Nichels got a  car body they gutted the thing, took the body off of the floor and reinforced  and caged the chassis and welded the body back on what was left ? With the top of the cowl and the firewall not being connected the heat from the motor would come back into the body ?

[Aero426]

SO when Nicholes got a  car body they gutted the thing, took the body off of the floor and reinforced  and caged the chassis and welded the body back on what was left ?

In terms of what Nichels produced at their facility,  much of the original body was in the final build, but positions have been changed around to optimize it.   The floor position may be changed and then the body and rocker unit channeled over that to get an even greater amount of lowering.    It's the same basic car from 1964 onward.   But as time went on, (1968) there was more of the original car discarded.    So things like the trans tunnel are custom to get additional driveshaft clearance.  Firewall is custom to get engine set back.   Driver position moved rearward as well.    But you'd probably not notice it with your eye.   It is all stacking dimes to get a lower center of gravity and better roll center.  

With the top of the cowl and the firewall not being connected the heart from the motor would come back into the body ?

If I understand the question, you are looking at the above photos of the subject car and asking about the cowl and firewall.   The firewall is not the original Nichels part.     From Nichels, everything from the firewall and cowl is sealed up - more or less.   There would still be plenty of small openings for heat to get in, which is why the cars had asbestos mats and carpeting.    The 88 used a special heat resistant foam used by NASA.   Places like the shift opening, torsion bar adjustment,  and the front sides of the door jambs are vulnerable.    Glotzbach said a big change with the rule mandating the removal of side glass was that more smoke and fire got in the car when things blew up.

[Highbanked Hauler]

SO when Nicholes got a  car body they gutted the thing, took the body off of the floor and reinforced  and caged the chassis and welded the body back on what was left ?

In terms of what Nichels produced at their facility,  much of the original body was in the final build, but positions have been changed around to optimize it.   The floor position may be changed and then the body and rocker unit channeled over that to get an even greater amount of lowering.    It's the same basic car from 1964 onward.   But as time went on, (1968) there was more of the original car discarded.    So things like the trans tunnel are custom to get additional driveshaft clearance.  Firewall is custom to get engine set back.   Driver position moved rearward as well.    But you'd probably not notice it with your eye.   It is all stacking dimes to get a lower center of gravity and better roll center.  

With the top of the cowl and the firewall not being connected the heart from the motor would come back into the body ?

If I understand the question, you are looking at the above photos of the subject car and asking about the cowl and firewall.   The firewall is not the original Nichels part.     From Nichels, everything from the firewall and cowl is sealed up - more or less.   There would still be plenty of small openings for heat to get in, which is why the cars had asbestos mats and carpeting.    The 88 used a special heat resistant foam used by NASA.   Places like the shift opening, torsion bar adjustment,  and the front sides of the door jambs are vulnerable.    Glotzbach said a big change with the rule mandating the removal of side glass was that more smoke and fire got in the car when things blew up.

In looking at the no7 car I had thought the cowl was welded to the firewall and floor all the way across to the area that the hood hinges are attached to but this one isn't.

[Aero426]

  In looking at the no7 car I had thought the cowl was welded to the firewall and floor all the way across to the area that the hood hinges are attached to but this one isn't.

Al, you are correct.   Should be welded all the way across.   Firewall on this car is not a Nichels firewall.  At some point it has been changed.    The red and gold body is just hung on for transportation and the photos.    This car (like most) must have raced with a newer body.    It would have been eventually cut off to go back to a 69 Charger by a prior owner.   Make sense?  

[moparstuart]

Yes sir you can. But only 55  

tell him slow on the drive way only Rain Man

[odcics2]

SO when Nichels got a  car body they gutted the thing, took the body off of the floor and reinforced  and caged the chassis and welded the body back on what was left ? With the top of the cowl and the firewall not being connected the heat from the motor would come back into the body ?

Depends.  Prior to the Charger 500 speedway cars getting the body moved so it is 1.5 degrees relative to the chassis, the cars had the cages built into the unibody. Charger 500 short track cars did not get this modification. Plymouths never had this so the cages were just built into the cars. 
It was into the 70's before metal was hung on the cars chassis/cage. 

[djcarguy]

  what is info on Daytona in background of pic 17 that tan top posted ?/?  info an links to this build an Daytona behind it in pix 17/ of 45 tt posted ??   THanks DJ way out west.

[Aero426]

  what is info on Daytona in background of pic 17 that tan top posted ?/?  info an links to this build an Daytona behind it in pix 17/ of 45 tt posted ??   THanks DJ way out west.

The same shop is restoring the James Hylton Charger 500 that later became the Marty Robbins #42 Daytona.   

[odcics2]

 

[wingman(22)]

Hopefully HR issue will be out in the next week or so. Then I think there will be some updates.

[odcics2]

Hopefully HR issue will be out in the next week or so. Then I think there will be some updates.

Cool. Post up here also, for the guys that don't get HR.   

[Highbanked Hauler]

  what is info on Daytona in background of pic 17 that tan top posted ?/?  info an links to this build an Daytona behind it in pix 17/ of 45 tt posted ??   THanks DJ way out west.

The same shop is restoring the James Hylton Charger 500 that later became the Marty Robbins #42 Daytona.   

   Is it going to be a 500 or the Robbins #42 Daytona when its finished ?

[wingcar builder]

The other Charger is being done as the Robbins Daytona.

[wingcar builder]

  In looking at the no7 car I had thought the cowl was welded to the firewall and floor all the way across to the area that the hood hinges are attached to but this one isn't.

Al, you are correct.   Should be welded all the way across.   Firewall on this car is not a Nichels firewall.  At some point it has been changed.    The red and gold body is just hung on for transportation and the photos.    This car (like most) must have raced with a newer body.    It would have been eventually cut off to go back to a 69 Charger by a prior owner.   Make sense?  

When the car was re-bodied it appears they used a Holman Moody firewall on the car. here is a pic of a similar firewall on a car being built.

[Aero426]

My new issue of Hot Rod arrived yesterday.   I eagerly ran back into the house last night , only to find the exact word for word article posted on the web a month ago. 

I had hoped that by reading the article I would be doing this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXfHLUlZf4&list=RD4pXfHLUlZf4#t=0

Which in terms of learning something new, made me feel like this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A&list=RD1ytCEuuW2_A#t=0



We've been patiently eating a lot of popcorn.   I've been told straight up that this car is the real deal and I am happy to see another Nichels chassis come back to life.  

When will some meat and potatoes be served about what was found on this car to determine it's lineage?      

[odcics2]

When I found DC-93 (original #88) sitting behind Don White's shop, I got a lot of folks upset, especially Tim Wellborn and the Talladega Museum.  (WHAT?? We don't have the real car??  AAARRRGGGHH!!!)

I had to prove it with vintage photos vs a current photo of the exact area of the car, showing it was identical.
(yes - because Don had changed some stuff around!)   Photos of the original entire front end in the woods wasn't enough for some guys!

So, I got it all together and got info out there. I got the guys that worked on the car at Chrysler over to see it.

Looks like something like this should happen to get the 305 car authenticated in the minds of many. (vintage pics of same part of chassis - now vs then) 

Welcome to the club, Bill!   

[Aero426]

On another note, I am waiting for someone to find the long lost GRX from Speed Racer.   It had an supernatural engine;  so dangerous, that it killed or injured its drivers.    But that engine had a sound all its own.  







https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5sT4hdde-c

[ae8i]

Re: GRX - I heard odcics2 may have gotten it from Don White.

[Aero426]

Re: GRX - I heard odcics2 may have gotten it from Don White.

Pops would never have advised Don to get anywhere NEAR the GRX.    Last time Pops saw it, it was upside down and on fire.  But at the end of the episode, they never said what happened to it after that.  That car could still be in a barn somewhere.  

[sccachallenger]

My new issue of Hot Rod arrived yesterday.   I eagerly ran back into the house last night , only to find the exact word for word article posted on the web a month ago.  

I had hoped that by reading the article I would be doing this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXfHLUlZf4&list=RD4pXfHLUlZf4#t=0

Which in terms of learning something new, made me feel like this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A&list=RD1ytCEuuW2_A#t=0



We've been patiently eating a lot of popcorn.   I've been told straight up that this car is the real deal and I am happy to see another Nichels chassis come back to life.  
When will some meat and potatoes be served about what was found on this car to determine it's lineage?      

Me too! HR says Doug Dempsey authenticated the car. So what did DD see that confirmed its identity?
Calling Doug Dempsey!!

[odcics2]

My new issue of Hot Rod arrived yesterday.   I eagerly ran back into the house last night , only to find the exact word for word article posted on the web a month ago.  

I had hoped that by reading the article I would be doing this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXfHLUlZf4&list=RD4pXfHLUlZf4#t=0

Which in terms of learning something new, made me feel like this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A&list=RD1ytCEuuW2_A#t=0



We've been patiently eating a lot of popcorn.   I've been told straight up that this car is the real deal and I am happy to see another Nichels chassis come back to life.  
When will some meat and potatoes be served about what was found on this car to determine it's lineage?      

Me too! HR says Doug Dempsey authenticated the car. So what did DD see that confirmed its identity?
Calling Doug Dempsey!!

You didn't ask, but here ya go...

[moparstuart]

My new issue of Hot Rod arrived yesterday.   I eagerly ran back into the house last night , only to find the exact word for word article posted on the web a month ago.  

I had hoped that by reading the article I would be doing this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXfHLUlZf4&list=RD4pXfHLUlZf4#t=0

Which in terms of learning something new, made me feel like this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ytCEuuW2_A&list=RD1ytCEuuW2_A#t=0



We've been patiently eating a lot of popcorn.   I've been told straight up that this car is the real deal and I am happy to see another Nichels chassis come back to life.  
When will some meat and potatoes be served about what was found on this car to determine it's lineage?      

Me too! HR says Doug Dempsey authenticated the car. So what did DD see that confirmed its identity?
Calling Doug Dempsey!!

Maybe it was really Chim Chim doing the Authentication   

[odcics2]

Any update on this project? 

[Simonic]

 

[djcarguy]

Any update on this project? 

   

[sccachallenger]

Hopefully HR issue will be out in the next week or so. Then I think there will be some updates.

Desperate for crumbs on this subject.
All we hear are crickets!

[odcics2]

Hopefully HR issue will be out in the next week or so. Then I think there will be some updates.

Desperate for crumbs on this subject.
All we hear are crickets!

chirp chirp.....

[Stevearino]

Posted on Facebook.

[hemi68charger]

What a stance !!!!

[Birdflu]

Wonder if it will be done in time for the reunion next Fall? 

[Stevearino]

Here is another.

[tan top]

 

[charger chris]

Wow look at all the noses laying around.  Nice look car

[Stevearino]

More progress.

[Highbanked Hauler]

  I wonder if they will have it at the throwback weekend at Darlington this year ?

[sccachallenger]

Great to see progress on this project, looks wonderful!

Anyone heard what the "proof" is?

[odcics2]

Posted on Facebook.

The wing is off the original Southern 500 winner.   

[wingcar builder]

I should've gave Bill the Ray Elder hood I have after being on the Daytona it was on the 70' Charger that won the season opener at Riverside the month prior to this car running Daytona 500. therefore making it the hood from the first Winston Cup winning car. 

[odcics2]

I should've gave Bill the Ray Elder hood I have after being on the Daytona it was on the 70' Charger that won the season opener at Riverside the month prior to this car running Daytona 500. therefore making it the hood from the first Winston Cup winning car. 

Was the hood for a standard or drooped front end?

[tan top]

 

[Stevearino]

While you are waiting the car Bill sold that was originally a Hylton car then went to Marty Robbins is also making some progress.

[odcics2]

 

[wingcar builder]

While you are waiting the car Bill sold that was originally a Hylton car then went to Marty Robbins is also making some progress.

Ray Everham has his hands full right now hope he gets on it soon.

[wingcar builder]

I should've gave Bill the Ray Elder hood I have after being on the Daytona it was on the 70' Charger that won the season opener at Riverside the month prior to this car running Daytona 500. therefore making it the hood from the first Winston Cup winning car. 

Was the hood for a standard or drooped front end?

I believe a standard. Ray got the chassis at Nichels and took it back to Cruthers and built the car there. very limited tech support

[Highbanked Hauler]

 On a drooped front end are the front fenders reworked also ?

[odcics2]

On a drooped front end are the front fenders reworked also ?

Yes.
The hoods on these cars are a bit flexible, because most of the undersides are cut out.
A drooped hood may possibly fit standard fenders. 

[tallzag]

Jack McCoy did the same thing, build his cars on the West Coast with Nichels parts.  They wanted to do modifications by themselves.

[Stevearino]

Jack McCoy did the same thing, build his cars on the West Coast with Nichels parts.  They wanted to do modifications by themselves.

I believe the front end of this particular car is the original sheet metal from Jack McCoys car. Would have been nice if it had found it's way to the restoration of the 7 car a number of years back.

[odcics2]

Jack McCoy did the same thing, build his cars on the West Coast with Nichels parts.  They wanted to do modifications by themselves.

I believe the front end of this particular car is the original sheet metal from Jack McCoys car. Would have been nice if it had found it's way to the restoration of the 7 car a number of years back.

Pete had mentioned to me a while back about selling the McCoy front clip...   

[Icarus38376]

Decided to keep the Jack McCoy front clip for a while.

[odcics2]

Decided to keep the Jack McCoy front clip for a while.