Help me plan a driveline

[Midnight_Rider]

Alright guys (and gals?), it's time to get started on the 71 Road Runner.

It's originally a 383 car but the factory drivetrain is long gone.

What I have:
- 440 from a motorhome (late 74 casting, 75 production?)
- 8.25 rear end with unknown gears
- column shift car in need of a driver's side floor pan replacement


What I want to end up with:
- A street car with good drivability, vacuum for power brakes, etc.
- Overdrive
- A rearend with gears to compliment the above and sturdy enough to handle the torque (8.75 at least?)


I do have a couple of things in mind. Aluminum heads (for weight savings as much as anything) and a throttle body injection system (Fitech or Holley Sniper). From what I have read, these TBI systems may do a little better with a single-plane manifold, so I'm thinking Holley Street Dominator at this point. Thinking about something with milder compression that can run on 89 octane if needed. At least flirting with the idea.

As for the overdrive, I'd prefer an auto, but not ruling out a manual. I have to replace the driver's side floor pan anyway, so I was thinking about putting in a manual hump either way for more room in the tunnel. Don't really want to hack the torsion bar crossmember.

Guess I'm fishing for opinions on:
stroker vs non-stroker
trick flow heads vs stealths (or ?)
compression
headers vs shorties vs manifolds
making everything work together from engine to rear wheels

If I had to put a number on things, I'd love around 550 hp and torque to match. But I'm not married to a number, it will be a street car and drivability comes first.

Throw some opinions/advice at me...

[Challenger340]

We did a 400 Block into a 451 recently, with the caveat from the customer that it had to 100% factory original "appearance", Factory Exhaust Manifolds, Air Cleaner,Valve Covers etc., etc. Power Brake compliant, very quiet running and on and on.
We ended up at 500hp and 550 Ft/lbs through the restrictive Exhaust Manifolds and 2 1/4 Exhaust on the Engine Dyno, after seeing as high as 570 hp through the Dyno Headers.
The Factory HP Exhaust Manifolds REALLY dump power !

Long story short, and I'll try and get a Dyno Sheet up in the "Proven Combos Section" shortly, but we used a long Piston skirt 4032 alloy/shorter Rod Combo and Ported "Stealth" Heads on a Custom Cam, nice Idle sound, good vacuum, and it just PULLS like gangbusters, and is very quiet running(NO Piston noise as is the usual knock against the shorter Piston Skirt 451 combos)

[Midnight_Rider]

We did a 400 Block into a 451 recently, with the caveat from the customer that it had to 100% factory original "appearance", Factory Exhaust Manifolds, Air Cleaner,Valve Covers etc., etc. Power Brake compliant, very quiet running and on and on.
We ended up at 500hp and 550 Ft/lbs through the restrictive Exhaust Manifolds and 2 1/4 Exhaust on the Engine Dyno, after seeing as high as 570 hp through the Dyno Headers.
The Factory HP Exhaust Manifolds REALLY dump power !

Long story short, and I'll try and get a Dyno Sheet up in the "Proven Combos Section" shortly, but we used a long Piston skirt 4032 alloy/shorter Rod Combo and Ported "Stealth" Heads on a Custom Cam, nice Idle sound, good vacuum, and it just PULLS like gangbusters, and is very quiet running(NO Piston noise as is the usual knock against the shorter Piston Skirt 451 combos)

Thanks for posting, 340. I'm no expert, but 500/550 out of 451 cubes on manifolds sounds pretty impressive to me! Especially with good manners.

It sounds like I may be able to get where I want to go on a stock stroke 440. I do like the idea of the Stealths, with everything bolting in in the stock locations. And the ability to preserve the stock outward appearance. But are ported Stealths going to end up costing more than OOTB inspected/prepped Trick Flow 240's?

I'll keep an eye out for the build in the Proven Combo section. I've been eyeballing the 'lowly 440' thread and also MFR426's build.

[Challenger340]

IMO, Flow is Flow no matter how you get there.
"There" being defined as what you need in the way of Flow for a given application, with a general "rule of thumb" being 2hp per cfm,(with lots of other factors obviously involved), nonetheless, just a quick ballpark at the feasibility or planning stage.
TF's are a great Head no doubt about that ?
What you have to decide is just how much you are prepared to invest in the Stealth to maintaining the "stock" appearance ? But really, even the Stealth OOTB with no work "could" theoretically support the 500hp within the right build parts/parameters.
Yes, we ported the Stealth's for the build we were doing, and we probably could have seen up even closer to 600hp tuning with a good set of Headers, as opposed to only 570hp with the 2 1/8" Dyno Headers(waay too BIG)
nonetheless,
we knew we ultimately were headed to the factory HP Manifolds, so no point, and all we were trying to do was maintain 500hp with the manifolds.

IMO, yep, depending upon where you go ?, you may very well have in your Ported Stealths, all said and done, very close to the costs of the OOTB TF's ?
That said,
and at that point, they are then BOTH 300 cfm Heads and pretty much equal for what YOU are doing?   If you consider the Cam Lift points most probable in your Street build ?

What I mean is who cares what a Head Flows at .700 Lift if you are using a .550" lift Cam ? All YOU care about is Flow "Area under the Curve" you are utilizing with YOUR Cam.

Good Luck with whatever you decide

[Mike DC]

We ended up at 500hp and 550 Ft/lbs through the restrictive Exhaust Manifolds and 2 1/4 Exhaust on the Engine Dyno, after seeing as high as 570 hp through the Dyno Headers.
The Factory HP Exhaust Manifolds REALLY dump power !

What did the manifolds do to the torque? 

[Midnight_Rider]

***

IMO, yep, depending upon where you go ?, you may very well have in your Ported Stealths, all said and done, very close to the costs of the OOTB TF's ?
That said,
and at that point, they are then BOTH 300 cfm Heads and pretty much equal for what YOU are doing?   If you consider the Cam Lift points most probable in your Street build ?

What I mean is who cares what a Head Flows at .700 Lift if you are using a .550" lift Cam ? All YOU care about is Flow "Area under the Curve" you are utilizing with YOUR Cam.

Good Luck with whatever you decide

Well, it looks like I need to budget ~2k for the heads either way. And find somebody to do the porting if going with the Stealths. Or maybe the CNC Stealths would be worth looking at? Thanks for the input.

Now I need to decide what I'm going to do for an OD transmission, seeing as it will affect cam choice along with rear gear ratio, tire size, stall if auto, etc.

[68CoronetRT]

I'm in a very similar type build currently with my car. I like the Voodoo cams which also give good vacuum at idle, I run manual brakes.

For the OD part, you can go Gear Vendors, or the A series trans or the 48re etc etc..., or if you want to cut up the tunnel the best option would be to go 4l80e if your not worried about Chevy parts in your car. I priced it all out and it all comes out to about the same amount to do everything correct. I decided to not cut up the tunnel so I went the 727/GV route, from a 4 speed. Or you go with a TKO600 or T56 manual transmission. Again all very similar in price at the end, just depends on how much cutting and fab work you want to do. I just went from 4 speed to Manual Valve Body auto and it drives so much nicer than the 4 speed! Running a 3500 stall converter.

Definitely want a 8.75", if OD is happening then I'd say 3:91's or 3:55's. Go as much compression as you can for pump gas, so 10:1 to maybe 10.5:1 or so on 91. 28" tall tire in the rear is a good option(275/60/15).

If I did my motor over again, I would do the 512 stroker kit from 440source. Iam running the Stealth heads OOTB and they seem to do well, I have nothing really to compare to so not sure there.

Header wise, your going to beat your head against the wall . For the little loss in power I'd run the Shuchmacher(SP?) Shorties if your going auto, it makes life way way easier. I hate my long tube headers, but they came on the car so sofar I've just dealt with it. But I'm sick of burning plug wires, cant get to the plugs easily, they leak, and just get in the way of EVERYTHING, cant remove the starter etc...

I'm also running the Fitech EFI and cant say enough good things about it! You DO NOT want a duel plane intake with any TBI injection. I'm running the Holley Street Dominator with a spacer to adapt the quadrajet to a square bore. I also suggest doing the Tanks Inc. tank, and intank Walbro 255 pump. It's alot more money in fittings, new fuel line, tank, pump etc... but it is SO MUCH nicer in the end. I've read too many bad reviews about their "Fuel Command Center" that I spent the extra couple hundred to do it intank.

[Midnight_Rider]

I'm in a very similar type build currently with my car. I like the Voodoo cams which also give good vacuum at idle, I run manual brakes.

For the OD part, you can go Gear Vendors, or the A series trans or the 48re etc etc..., or if you want to cut up the tunnel the best option would be to go 4l80e if your not worried about Chevy parts in your car. I priced it all out and it all comes out to about the same amount to do everything correct. I decided to not cut up the tunnel so I went the 727/GV route, from a 4 speed. Or you go with a TKO600 or T56 manual transmission. Again all very similar in price at the end, just depends on how much cutting and fab work you want to do. I just went from 4 speed to Manual Valve Body auto and it drives so much nicer than the 4 speed! Running a 3500 stall converter.

Definitely want a 8.75", if OD is happening then I'd say 3:91's or 3:55's. Go as much compression as you can for pump gas, so 10:1 to maybe 10.5:1 or so on 91. 28" tall tire in the rear is a good option(275/60/15).

If I did my motor over again, I would do the 512 stroker kit from 440source. Iam running the Stealth heads OOTB and they seem to do well, I have nothing really to compare to so not sure there.

Header wise, your going to beat your head against the wall . For the little loss in power I'd run the Shuchmacher(SP?) Shorties if your going auto, it makes life way way easier. I hate my long tube headers, but they came on the car so sofar I've just dealt with it. But I'm sick of burning plug wires, cant get to the plugs easily, they leak, and just get in the way of EVERYTHING, cant remove the starter etc...

I'm also running the Fitech EFI and cant say enough good things about it! You DO NOT want a duel plane intake with any TBI injection. I'm running the Holley Street Dominator with a spacer to adapt the quadrajet to a square bore. I also suggest doing the Tanks Inc. tank, and intank Walbro 255 pump. It's alot more money in fittings, new fuel line, tank, pump etc... but it is SO MUCH nicer in the end. I've read too many bad reviews about their "Fuel Command Center" that I spent the extra couple hundred to do it intank.

Thanks for the input.

Re: the TBI setup... I seen a few posts around the 'net with people having issues with the dual planes. So I was already leaning toward the Street Dominator, plus from what I've read it's not an especially tall manifold and that helps with hood clearance. Also leaning toward in-tank fuel pump for the reasons you mentioned. Do you use the FiTech timing control?

P.S. - it looks like FiTech has a sequential "Go Port" system due out soon:
http://fitechefi.com/products/goport/




Too bad they don't have a manifold for a 440... but it looks like they'll be offering a system minus manifold, fuel rails and injectors for $1295.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Are you set of having fuel injection? I was never impressed with tbi setups. They are nothing more then an electric carb. My personal opinion is they are overpriced and overrated. Multiport injection is a whole different animal though.

[Midnight_Rider]

Are you set of having fuel injection? I was never impressed with tbi setups. They are nothing more then an electric carb. My personal opinion is they are overpriced and overrated. Multiport injection is a whole different animal though.

Yeah, I think I'll probably have a go at it, one way or another. I'm fiddling with the idea of wasted spark / EDIS as well.

[c00nhunterjoe]

There are several aftermarket intakes for bb mopar that have bosses cast in for multiport injection. You just have to get them finish machined and drilled. If you are looking for the most from fuel injection, multiport is the way to go. It is more time consuming and laptop based for programming, but no comparison to tbi.

[68CoronetRT]

I have tried to use the spark control and I have a firmware issue that I still need to address. Then its on to nitrous .

And as far as TBI vs Multi port, I've done both and the TBI runs just as good with far less complications than the Multiport stuff I had. Its a good bolt on and go type deal. The full blown efi stuff is still great, but for the availability of manifolds + machine work + injectors + sensors + efi computer + fab work, your into it alot more than a simple TBI setup that utilizes a single plane manifold. Just my .02

[BSB67]

What is your all-in budget?  What is your engine budget?   If you are talking from radiator to rear tires, and everything in between, and you don't have any parts now, you could be at +$20,000

[Midnight_Rider]

What is your all-in budget?  What is your engine budget?   If you are talking from radiator to rear tires, and everything in between, and you don't have any parts now, you could be at +$20,000

Your thoughts are pretty close to mine on prices. I'm thinking somewhere around $8K or so for the engine? Still kind of feeling that out. That, and any sort of OD transmission are the big ticket items.

edited to add:
I do have a complete 440 for a core.

[BSB67]

I'm always fascinated when folks on these forums are seemingly going down a path with their driveline upgrades and it's huge financial commitment, with a very vague plan.   And certainly these forums might be a great place to meet the right people and to develop a solid plan.  However, there is a certain portions of the plan that is solely on the owner.  Budget, personal commitment, schedule, desired outcome, and other life factors. Until you get those straight, what rear end and transmission discussions might be premature.   And these things can initially run parallel path, but the personal plan items should be nailed down before you spend one dollar.  I have seen a lot of projects crash and burn for lack of a solid up front plan.  Maybe you have done all of this, and if so, I did not intend to insult, only enlighten if you have not.  

Here are a few high level questions.  These are somewhat rhetorical and for you to think about, and not necessarily answer here.

1) Are you currently well versed in doing all the things that are required for this project with all the necessary tools?
2) Are you all about the journey, or the end product?
3) Will cost be an issue for you for every decision?

Finally, Can you describe for us exactly what you want the car to be when it is done, and how will it be used?  The more clearly you can articulate this, the better we can advise.  And really focus on what is really important to you.

[Challenger340]

A little off topic, but at our Shop after many decades in Business.....
any potential customer seeking out our services for an Engine, we have them fill out a very detailed form questionnaire.

It's not just a simple "HP and Trq" requested.....
it involves EVERYTHING about the Car and ANYTHING in the way of a support system for the Engine as it will be installed in the Car ?

The BLANK STARES we get back sometimes when people are filling out the form can be humorous Nonetheless IMO, the $ "light bulbs" you can see going on in their melons can be a beneficial reality check ?
We then get statements like "Geez, I never thought of THAT ?"
and,
that is part of the intention on our part, plus not wanting any problems later after it leaves the Dyno and gets installed in the Car ?

[Midnight_Rider]

I'm always fascinated when folks on these forums are seemingly going down a path with their driveline upgrades and it's huge financial commitment, with a very vague plan.   And certainly these forums might be a great place to meet the right people and to develop a solid plan.  However, there is a certain portions of the plan that is solely on the owner.  Budget, personal commitment, schedule, desired outcome, and other life factors. Until you get those straight, what rear end and transmission discussions might be premature.   And these things can initially run parallel path, but the personal plan items should be nailed down before you spend one dollar.  I have seen a lot of projects crash and burn for lack of a solid up front plan.  Maybe you have done all of this, and if so, I did not intend to insult, only enlighten if you have not. 

Absolutely no insult taken. What you said is true, and even wise. It does take a certain amount of tenacity to complete a project like this. I just sold a 69 Mach 1 that I've been driving & enjoying for several years, which was in similar condition to this Roadrunner when I got it -- no motor, no transmission, needed a floorpan, etc, etc... In the end it was far from perfect, but I think it turned out Ok?




That resto took several years, and I had to pay as I went, a little here, a little there. I expect this one will go a little faster, as I do have a fair lump sum available up front to at least cover the drivetrain & paint & body work. Which I'll have some help on the body work, as one of my friends runs a body shop and another friend is a retired body man. But my point is, that your point was an excellent one regarding the pitfalls of projects like these.

Finally, Can you describe for us exactly what you want the car to be when it is done, and how will it be used?  The more clearly you can articulate this, the better we can adives.  And really focus on what is really important to you.

I'd like to end up with a fun, reliable street car that doesn't require a lot of maintenance and won't be humiliated by modern cars power-wise.
I'd like to make sure everything works together, from the carb to the rear tires.
I need good vacuum for power brakes (and the FiTech/Holley Sniper systems purportedly do better with 12+ inches?)
Lots of in-town & 55 mph cruising, some interstate at 70+ (thus my plans for an OD trans), and back-roads adrenaline runs.
I'd prefer an automatic.
I'd rather compression not be right at the ragged edge for pump gas, to hedge my bets that gas quality is going to get worse, and not better?


The Mustang had a 351 Cleveland, .030 over, 10.5:1 compression, Comp 282S Magnum cam (236@.050, .570/570 lift, .022" lash), Scorpion adjustable roller rockers, Performer RPM intake, Holley 780 Ultra Street Avenger carb & MSD ignition with 3.50 rear gears and a 4r70w trans with a 3200 rpm Circle D stall converter. What I am shooting for is similar performance (or better?) in the Roadrunner. I'm not afraid of a solid FT cam, but would prefer a hydraulic if it will get the job done.

I really do appreciate you guys taking the time & effort to help people like myself think things through and plan them out so that they have the best chance to be successful, so thank you to everyone.

[Midnight_Rider]

To add to the above: I'd rather have good off-idle response, where a street car needs it and lose a little up top, than have pure top-end power and a soggy bottom (that didn't sound good!). If the engine's all in by 5500-6000 rpm it's fine.

[BSB67]

Okay.  Our tastes are similar.  I also personally prefer a tighter, more stock torque converter.  I prefer automatic shift with factory stuff (no aftermarket shifters or linkage).  I prefer a very subtle performance sound at idle, i.e. not much more than stock, and I like it to be smooth at 750-800 rpm in gear.  With all of those constraints, I really really like to make good power too.  The more cubic inches you have, the more power can be made with these type of restrictions.  Here are the key motor items I would suggest:

1) A 500-ish cu.in. big block.  Your choice on the 400 block, or a 440 block. Come back when you're ready to make that decision and it will be debated ad nauseam which is best, but it really does not matter.
2) Target a 10.25:1 CR with a zero deck quality piston manufacturer.
3) Chinese rods and crank per your (quality) machine shop recommendation.
4) TrickFlow PowerPort 240 heads.  I would spring for the Ti retainers if they are in your budget, just because.
5) Put a nice adjustable valve gear on it, even if you go hydraulic, if it is in the budget, just because.
6) A 950 HP style carb with a venturi size from 1.375" to 1.420" on either a Indy 440 2D or Holley SD intake.
7) 1 7/8 header (no more) and a 2 1/2" mandrel bent exhaust system with something like a long body Ultra Flow muffler.

Cam:
Hydraulic FT cam- Something in the <240° @ 0.050" Intake on a 112° LSA.  I would stay away from the fast rate hydraulic cam profiles.
Solid FT Cam - Something in the <245° @ 0.050" intake duration on a 112° LSA.  I would use a more aggressive "Chevy" lobe or maybe a Ford lobe, and maybe increase the rocker arm ratio to 1.6 or more.
Solid roller cam - Something in the <245° @ 0.050" intake duration on a 112° LSA.  I would use a "street roller", and maybe increase the rocker arm ratio to 1.6 or more.

Go with a 3.55 gear.  Anything numerically higher is a total waste IMO.  With that, pick your od/5-speed tranny accordingly.

Based on what I think you want, this is what I would do.

[c00nhunterjoe]

  100%

With the options, i would get the solid flat tappet over the other options based soley on the cost difference in quality roller lifters vs flat tappets. The indy 2d intake is the best option for this build in my opinion. The comp magnum steel roller rockers or aluminum harland sharps, whichever is on sale when you are ready to purchase. I personally like the comps.

[Midnight_Rider]

Thanks guys, lots of great advice here. Plenty for me to think about and look into.

I already have a 440 waiting in the wings, so no debating B/RB unless the block fails to pass muster.

I doubt I'll mess with a roller cam. If I go hydraulic FT, should I bush the lifter bores? And for that matter, are there any modifications that should be made to the oiling system in the block? I know for 351 clevelands it is recommended to restrict certain oil passages to prioritize the mains.

[BSB67]

If I go hydraulic FT, should I bush the lifter bores?
No

And for that matter, are there any modifications that should be made to the oiling system in the block?
Another item that can be debated ad nauseam.  But for what you are doing, No, IMO.  I would take apart the new Melling oil pump that you will likely buy and you'll find plenty to re-align, radius and debur. 

[c00nhunterjoe]

I would still go solid cam. Its a win-win for you.

[Midnight_Rider]

I would still go solid cam. Its a win-win for you.

50/50. I'd like to get away from solids (ran 'em in the Mustang), but understand the advantage.

[c00nhunterjoe]

What is the reasoning for wanting to not use one?

[Challenger340]

No Offense intended here,
but in my experience with Cleveland builds around the power levels indicated by your parts description(And I've seen, Dyno'd and built plenty of them),
it won't take very much comparatively in the way of even a .030" over 440 Engine ? to put a smile on your face you couldn't wipe off with a 2 X 4. 

Torque is what moves you and what you "feel" in the seat of your pants, and again here no offense intended..... but your Cleveland was not even in the same league, nor with HP @ rpm on that Cam.
Again my apologies here....
NOT trying to slag your past efforts in the Mustang, I'm sure it was a very fun Car, and obviously a BEAUTIFULLY done head turner
Just say'in.... you can expect a different animal altogether.

[Midnight_Rider]

No Offense intended here,
but in my experience with Cleveland builds around the power levels indicated by your parts description(And I've seen, Dyno'd and built plenty of them),
it won't take very much comparatively in the way of even a .030" over 440 Engine ? to put a smile on your face you couldn't wipe off with a 2 X 4. 

Torque is what moves you and what you "feel" in the seat of your pants, and again here no offense intended..... but your Cleveland was not even in the same league, nor with HP @ rpm on that Cam.
Again my apologies here....
NOT trying to slag your past efforts in the Mustang, I'm sure it was a very fun Car, and obviously a BEAUTIFULLY done head turner
Just say'in.... you can expect a different animal altogether.

No apologies needed, nor offense taken at all. I just wasn't sure how much difference the added weight of a 72 B body over the Mustang woud make, in soaking up the extra power of a 440? In a frame of reference of the type of builds you were talking about in the "lowly 440" thread.

[Midnight_Rider]

What is the reasoning for wanting to not use one?

I'd like to get out of the periodic lash check/adjustments.

[Challenger340]

What is the reasoning for wanting to not use one?

I'd like to get out of the periodic lash check/adjustments.

Being primarily Comp oriented at our Shop, we are NOT really fans of "Hydraulic" anything, Flat Tappet nor Roller ?
That said,
I think the "lowly 440" thread does illustrate just what "can" be accomplished using an off the shelf Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam(that does NOT require any periodic adjustment), with just good Machining and Build technique applied ?

Not blowing our own horn so much as just pointing out,(IMO), we made as much or more power on .030" and .060" over 440's, using small'ish F.T. Cams, within a very usable rpm range, as many similarily illustrated Stroker combinations ?
and,
while the pricing may ultimately get close to what the Stroker costs due to the added Head prep and FULL Block Machining Pkg. ?
I can report back from Customer feedback after a few years on the "lowly 440's.... and make NO mistake here,  these guys whoop on 'em like a Red-Headed Stepchild....
* They NEVER miss a beat
* ALL are extremely reliable
* NO Tics, Noises, Drips, Leaks, Farts, or issues to report whatsoever, ALL are extremely happy.

My point being,
you can make power with anything if you know how ?
and,
The biggest mistake we see on a daily basis, is that people just going out buying "parts" is no guarantee of power, nor reliability, without buying the "expertise" to make it work !

It's gotten so sad in our Geographical area ?
we could damn near be full time "Janitors" just fixing the messes.
So Nowadays,
if we didn't build it originally ? we don't let it in the door... NO EXCEPTIONS !




 

[Midnight_Rider]

I already have a 440 waiting in the wings, so no debating B/RB unless the block fails to pass muster.

Getting pretty close to the point where I can have the block checked and find out if it's a go... got the floorpans in and the car itself is off to get new quarters, so I started tearing the motor home 440 down.

[alfaitalia]

I used to have one of those engine block supports!!