Super Bee Ebay, vin swap

[cdr]

vin swap Quote :   It appears the original dash of the car was swapped out with a dash from a Super Bee post car. The VIN on fender tag and radiator support both match and is the true VIN to this car. There is not a VIN on the trunk lip. Please ask any questions before bidding.
VIN on fender tag and radiator support: WM23H9A194205
VIN on dash tag: WM21H9A233647 (the car is registered with this VIN)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1969-Dodge-Coronet-Super-Bee-Hardtop-2-Door-/122373317021?hash=item1c7e04a19d:g:bVYAAOSwOgdYs6Nm&vxp=mtr

[tan top]

[tan top]

 

[tan top]

 

[tan top]

 

[tan top]

 

[tan top]

 

[TeeWJay426]

Nice looking car, other than the VIN snafu. That will certainly affect the value and likely scare off some buyers, though.

[69CoronetRT]

This is exactly why you ignore people that justify and rationalize VIN swaps and rebodys. Somebody is going to get burned on this car.

[polywideblock]

x2 

[DAY CLONA]

This is exactly why you ignore people that justify and rationalize VIN swaps and rebodys. Somebody is going to get burned on this car.

If your into the paint daubs, date codes and the numbers deal, then NO the car's not for you, but for someone that want's a nice ride, nothing wrong with this car, the title is clear, it has been registered with the current VIN tag, one could create an issue by pursuing the "original" VIN...

[cdr]

This is exactly why you ignore people that justify and rationalize VIN swaps and rebodys. Somebody is going to get burned on this car.

If your into the paint daubs, date codes and the numbers deal, then NO the car's not for you, but for someone that want's a nice ride, nothing wrong with this car, the title is clear, it has been registered with the current VIN tag, one could create an issue by pursuing the "original" VIN...

   

[crj1968]

No one will get burned on it- unless some guy with proof of something has a beef with it.  The title matches the VIN and that is ownership, the rest is just parts..

Many engines and tranny's out there with VIN's stamped on them in the wrong car. By law, that also is categorized as a VIN swap and by law requires an application for a rebuilt title...

That's every non matching numbers car out there...who's running down to the DMV?  No one.

[hemi-hampton]

This is exactly why you ignore people that justify and rationalize VIN swaps and rebodys. Somebody is going to get burned on this car.

We got a few people like that in here.

[crj1968]

I do not justify VIN swaps for deception....it unfortunately happens because when a HEMI car sells for 6 figures, the crime element takes notice.
I don't see the seller of this "super bee" trying to deceive anyone....and that car has likely changed hands a dozen times as it is.

I have no issue with re-bodies as I consider AMD metal use a rebodied car...funny how you can use non factory metal and  still be numbers matching but can use factory correct, period correct metal, from a wrecking yard and suddenly everything is questionable.

A VERY high percentage of cars even "numbers matching" cars with replacement sheet metal are not technically "legal" as they should have salvage or rebuilt titles in most states.

[cdr]

I do not justify VIN swaps for deception....it unfortunately happens because when a HEMI car sells for 6 figures, the crime element takes notice.
I don't see the seller of this "super bee" trying to deceive anyone....and that car has likely changed hands a dozen times as it is.

I have no issue with re-bodies as I consider AMD metal use a rebodied car...funny how you can use non factory metal and  still be numbers matching but can use factory correct, period correct metal, from a wrecking yard and suddenly everything is questionable.

A VERY high percentage of cars even "numbers matching" cars with replacement sheet metal are not technically "legal" as they should have salvage or rebuilt titles in most states.

You can  all you want,,, an aftermarket 1/4 never had a VIN assigned to it, this car has TWO VINS.

[moparnation74]

I do not justify VIN swaps for deception....it unfortunately happens because when a HEMI car sells for 6 figures, the crime element takes notice.
I don't see the seller of this "super bee" trying to deceive anyone....and that car has likely changed hands a dozen times as it is.

I have no issue with re-bodies as I consider AMD metal use a rebodied car...funny how you can use non factory metal and  still be numbers matching but can use factory correct, period correct metal, from a wrecking yard and suddenly everything is questionable.

A VERY high percentage of cars even "numbers matching" cars with replacement sheet metal are not technically "legal" as they should have salvage or rebuilt titles in most states.


May also have #'s on the rad support and trunk lip areas.......

You can  all you want,,, an aftermarket 1/4 never had a VIN assigned to it, this car has TWO VINS.

[DAY CLONA]

You can  all you want,,, an aftermarket 1/4 never had a VIN assigned to it, this car has TWO VINS.

Back in the day a lot of dashes got changed out either for a performance dash, and accident, color change, etc, etc, we didn't usually give two hoots about the VIN tag, that's why you see a number of cars come up with 2 VINs over the years, back in the day all that mattered to LE stop was your vehicle plate/registration nothing more, VIN checks were never performed,  the new owner would be wise to toss either a "new" VIN on it, or toss the fender tag to avoid issues in this era of "numbers" hysteria

[cdr]

You can  all you want,,, an aftermarket 1/4 never had a VIN assigned to it, this car has TWO VINS.

Back in the day a lot of dashes got changed out either for a performance dash, and accident, color change, etc, etc, we didn't usually give two hoots about the VIN tag, that's why you see a number of cars come up with 2 VINs over the years, back in the day all that mattered to LE stop was your vehicle plate/registration nothing more, VIN checks were never performed,  the new owner would be wise to toss either a "new" VIN on it, or toss the fender tag to avoid issues in this era of "numbers" hysteria

Not true in Texas, The shop I worked at for 14 years also had a police storage lot & the DPS checked MANY frame,body,vin#'s to check for stolen Cars & trucks, you can tell yourself what you want to hear, that wont make it true.

[cdr]

If this Bee was in Texas it would be confiscated.   

[chargerbr549]

Here in Las Vegas NV the DMV is a royal pain to deal with and with the Vin inspection needed anytime you buy a vehicle from out of state I don't think you would have a chance in hell of being able to register that car but some other states I lived in before I don't think there would have been a problem in registering that car.

[DAY CLONA]

Here in Las Vegas NV the DMV is a royal pain to deal with and with the Vin inspection needed anytime you buy a vehicle from out of state I don't think you would have a chance in hell of being able to register that car but some other states I lived in before I don't think there would have been a problem in registering that car.

In RI or Mass, all I need is the current title, or bill of sale from a non title State, cash in hand, I walk out with a new title and registration, In Vermont, I can register without a title, on line, no residency required, I will receive a plate and registration in the mail, all I need is proof of Insurance, 6 months later (best to wait 1 year) I can use that non title State registration in my name to obtain a title in the State of my choosing with no VIN check as I own the vehicle and only performing a State title/residency transfer

[DAY CLONA]

you can tell yourself what you want to hear, that wont make it true.

Uhhh...make what true?

[crj1968]

I do not justify VIN swaps for deception....it unfortunately happens because when a HEMI car sells for 6 figures, the crime element takes notice.
I don't see the seller of this "super bee" trying to deceive anyone....and that car has likely changed hands a dozen times as it is.

I have no issue with re-bodies as I consider AMD metal use a rebodied car...funny how you can use non factory metal and  still be numbers matching but can use factory correct, period correct metal, from a wrecking yard and suddenly everything is questionable.

A VERY high percentage of cars even "numbers matching" cars with replacement sheet metal are not technically "legal" as they should have salvage or rebuilt titles in most states.

You can   all you want,,, an aftermarket 1/4 never had a VIN assigned to it, this car has TWO VINS.

I understand and yet a car with a replaced rad support a replaced engine and a replaced tranny could have 4 VINS...

It's not just my two cents its a fact that most muscle cars out there are not legal to the letter of the DMV laws

Seriously read this below from Nevada law (other states are similar) and tell me how many cars on this forum SHOULD have rebuilt titles....
-------------
Vehicles which have had certain repairs must be titled as Rebuilt even if they do not meet the definition of a salvage vehicle. This applies to any vehicle that has had one or more of the following major components replaced:

Cowl assembly;
Rear clip assembly;
Roof assembly;
Floor pan assembly;
Conventional frame coupled with one additional major component
Complete front inner structure for a unibody
These vehicles must be inspected by a licensed garage or body shop and the DMV using the Certificate of Inspection for Rebuilt Vehicles (Not Salvage). The existing title must be surrendered to the DMV, which will issue a title branded "Rebuilt".


-----------
Then there's this:

Older Vehicles
Vehicles 10 model years old or older are not considered salvage vehicles if the only repairs needed are a limited number of items. Specifically, the hood, the trunk lid, and/or up to two of the following: doors, grill assembly, bumper assembly, headlight assembly and taillight assembly.

If the vehicle requires more repairs than this, the 65 percent damage rule applies. (the car requires an inspection for a branded title) For example, the 65 percent rule would apply if the grill, front bumper and one headlight assembly were replaced. If only the hood the grill and the bumper were replaced, the 65 percent rule would not apply and the vehicle would not be considered a salvage vehicle. The 65 percent rule does not include any cost of paint or labor to paint the vehicle.
-----------------

If were talking about VIN law as a whole, then you'll see it gets just about everyone (except true survivors) in some form or another.
Not my two cents....factual facts that are in fact, factual.  

Replacing a bunch of parts and sheet metal around a VIN may not be swapping a VIN but requires a REBUILT title....who does that? No one.

There's a much bigger picture here, BY LAW, that most everyone ignores, because they know it's ridiculous...and if they are honest, it applies to their car.

The next time you buy a car and the guy tells you the floor pan was replaced, or the grill and headlights, are you going to demand he go and get a rebuilt title?

....moving on.....  

Peace

[bristol]

Here in Las Vegas NV the DMV is a royal pain to deal with and with the Vin inspection needed anytime you buy a vehicle from out of state I don't think you would have a chance in hell of being able to register that car but some other states I lived in before I don't think there would have been a problem in registering that car.

In RI or Mass, all I need is the current title, or bill of sale from a non title State, cash in hand, I walk out with a new title and registration, In Vermont, I can register without a title, on line, no residency required, I will receive a plate and registration in the mail, all I need is proof of Insurance, 6 months later (best to wait 1 year) I can use that non title State registration in my name to obtain a title in the State of my choosing with no VIN check as I own the vehicle and only performing a State title/residency transfer

I have done the Maine title a few times. They are always very helpful. Only thing is you have to pay sales tax on what the car books for. Not good when you bought a $1000 that books for $10,000.

[DAY CLONA]

Here in Las Vegas NV the DMV is a royal pain to deal with and with the Vin inspection needed anytime you buy a vehicle from out of state I don't think you would have a chance in hell of being able to register that car but some other states I lived in before I don't think there would have been a problem in registering that car.

In RI or Mass, all I need is the current title, or bill of sale from a non title State, cash in hand, I walk out with a new title and registration, In Vermont, I can register without a title, on line, no residency required, I will receive a plate and registration in the mail, all I need is proof of Insurance, 6 months later (best to wait 1 year) I can use that non title State registration in my name to obtain a title in the State of my choosing with no VIN check as I own the vehicle and only performing a State title/residency transfer

I have done the Maine title a few times. They are always very helpful. Only thing is you have to pay sales tax on what the car books for. Not good when you bought a $1000 that books for $10,000.

In that case, you can get an appraisal for around $100-$150, to define the true reduced/depreciated current value (esp if it's a project car), you still pay the full "book" sales tax, file for a tax abatement submitting the appraisal, then wait for a refund, usually within 60-90 days

or

If you have non titled vehicle with no/lost history, then a "new" bill of sale from a spouse or parent from the State your applying in, you fill out the property tax exemption form and pay no sales tax, just title and registration

[Alaskan_TA]

Here in Las Vegas NV the DMV is a royal pain to deal with and with the Vin inspection needed anytime you buy a vehicle from out of state I don't think you would have a chance in hell of being able to register that car but some other states I lived in before I don't think there would have been a problem in registering that car.

In RI or Mass, all I need is the current title, or bill of sale from a non title State, cash in hand, I walk out with a new title and registration, In Vermont, I can register without a title, on line, no residency required, I will receive a plate and registration in the mail, all I need is proof of Insurance, 6 months later (best to wait 1 year) I can use that non title State registration in my name to obtain a title in the State of my choosing with no VIN check as I own the vehicle and only performing a State title/residency transfer

I have done the Maine title a few times. They are always very helpful. Only thing is you have to pay sales tax on what the car books for. Not good when you bought a $1000 that books for $10,000.

In that case, you can get an appraisal for around $100-$150, to define the true reduced/depreciated current value (esp if it's a project car), you still pay the full "book" sales tax, file for a tax abatement submitting the appraisal, then wait for a refund, usually within 60-90 days

or

If you have non titled vehicle with no/lost history, then a "new" bill of sale from a spouse or parent from the State your applying in, you fill out the property tax exemption form and pay no sales tax, just title and registration

So as far as you are concerned, VIN fraud & tax fraud are both ok? 

[crj1968]

[RallyeMike]

It looks like a neat car, but you'd have to be nuts to buy a car titled under a VIN that is not the real VIN as stamped on the car. Wonder what the door sticker says, if it's even there.

[moparnation74]

It looks like a neat car, but you'd have to be nuts to buy a car titled under a VIN that is not the real VIN as stamped on the car. Wonder what the door sticker says, if it's even there.

It is a 69 so the sticker would never be there.......

Justify it anyway you can or find loopholes etc....In the end doing this falls on an individuals integrity.

At some time in the life of cars like this bee.  They will be sold to someone in a state where they WILL NOT be able to title/register it......I would not wish that on my worst enemy....

[DAY CLONA]

Here in Las Vegas NV the DMV is a royal pain to deal with and with the Vin inspection needed anytime you buy a vehicle from out of state I don't think you would have a chance in hell of being able to register that car but some other states I lived in before I don't think there would have been a problem in registering that car.

In RI or Mass, all I need is the current title, or bill of sale from a non title State, cash in hand, I walk out with a new title and registration, In Vermont, I can register without a title, on line, no residency required, I will receive a plate and registration in the mail, all I need is proof of Insurance, 6 months later (best to wait 1 year) I can use that non title State registration in my name to obtain a title in the State of my choosing with no VIN check as I own the vehicle and only performing a State title/residency transfer

I have done the Maine title a few times. They are always very helpful. Only thing is you have to pay sales tax on what the car books for. Not good when you bought a $1000 that books for $10,000.

In that case, you can get an appraisal for around $100-$150, to define the true reduced/depreciated current value (esp if it's a project car), you still pay the full "book" sales tax, file for a tax abatement submitting the appraisal, then wait for a refund, usually within 60-90 days

or

If you have non titled vehicle with no/lost history, then a "new" bill of sale from a spouse or parent from the State your applying in, you fill out the property tax exemption form and pay no sales tax, just title and registration

So as far as you are concerned, VIN fraud & tax fraud are both ok?  

I think of it more like tax evasion, kinda like what the founding settlers of this country came here for...Sovereign Citizenship

[moparnation74]

Here in Las Vegas NV the DMV is a royal pain to deal with and with the Vin inspection needed anytime you buy a vehicle from out of state I don't think you would have a chance in hell of being able to register that car but some other states I lived in before I don't think there would have been a problem in registering that car.

In RI or Mass, all I need is the current title, or bill of sale from a non title State, cash in hand, I walk out with a new title and registration, In Vermont, I can register without a title, on line, no residency required, I will receive a plate and registration in the mail, all I need is proof of Insurance, 6 months later (best to wait 1 year) I can use that non title State registration in my name to obtain a title in the State of my choosing with no VIN check as I own the vehicle and only performing a State title/residency transfer

I have done the Maine title a few times. They are always very helpful. Only thing is you have to pay sales tax on what the car books for. Not good when you bought a $1000 that books for $10,000.

In that case, you can get an appraisal for around $100-$150, to define the true reduced/depreciated current value (esp if it's a project car), you still pay the full "book" sales tax, file for a tax abatement submitting the appraisal, then wait for a refund, usually within 60-90 days

or

If you have non titled vehicle with no/lost history, then a "new" bill of sale from a spouse or parent from the State your applying in, you fill out the property tax exemption form and pay no sales tax, just title and registration

So as far as you are concerned, VIN fraud & tax fraud are both ok?  

I think of it more like tax evasion, kinda like what the founding settlers of this country came here for...Sovereign Citizenship

Wow!

[alfaitalia]

Lol...I think most off the people who left the UK with that sort of view ended up in Australia rather than the USA....and not through choice. At the time it was the world's biggest open air prison...lol!

[crj1968]

The ones that wound up in the US are known as our Founding Fathers.

[lukedukem]

Up to 18k and reserve not yet met.

Luke