Dyno day this friday, place your guesses or bets

[Stegs]

bringing my charger away friday to have it dyno tuned on saturday morning. Curious what you guys think it will do

Its a 440 (69 block) its got 906 heads that have been cleaned up, new valves (stock size) stock crank...its bored 30 over but has a compression ratio of about 8.7:1 with a elgin cam

Its got a holley 750, vac secondaries carb. The carb was mounted right out of the box, never touched. I also have a eddy performer intake.

I had it rebuilt 2 years ago, told them i wanted a 9.5 compression engine...He ordered pistons that said 9.5, but when i had Ron do the math, he came up with 8.7:1

It runs good, not very responsive and take a while to get the motor into a "happy rpm range" it does pull really good, its a great cruiser


Im hoping that dyno tuning it will help out, not so much in HP but in "drive-ability"

what do you guys think it will do

Trans is a 727, it has the 8 3/4 rear with a 3.23 sure grip. factory manifolds and a firecore ignition


Place your guesses

1. what will it make for power/tq as a baseline
2. what will it gain from dyno tuning a motor thats never been tuned before

Im not expecting big numbers at all. I just want to get the car running as best it can for this up coming season. Im sure a few adjustments will make a nice difference


Down the road i will be following rons advice, going with eddy 75cc heads, lunati 268/276 cam, headers and a better intake....

[c00nhunterjoe]

Corrected at the wheels- 295/330. After tuning- 320/350

[Back N Black]

After tuning, I would guess 275 hp.

[cdr]

255.6 HP

[Stegs]

255.6 HP

I like the .5

that could make all the difference.

I should do the price is right style. Closets to actual rear wheel horsepower and torque without going over wins a prize

[BLK 68 R/T]

 
before 290.3/310.8
after 315.4/340.7

[Stegs]

Update, just talked to the guy that was going to dyno tune. after a quick conversation with him he said to wait for the time being until i do the heads/cam

makes sense for sure!!

dyno tune has been postponed until the heads and cam arrive

[PRH]

I thought most chassis dyno shops offered a "3 pulls for $100" kinda thing.

I definitely would have done something like that to see where the numbers are now...... A solid baseline from which to evaluate the gains derived by the new parts.

[Stegs]

I thought most chassis dyno shops offered a "3 pulls for $100" kinda thing.

I definitely would have done something like that to see where the numbers are now...... A solid baseline from which to evaluate the gains derived by the new parts.

his rates are kinda wierd. 125 to strap on the dyno and make a run. 80 a hour after that if you make changes (dont know if that includes parts)

But like he said, it would be money wasted because all you would get is a baseline , then once you change heads or cams...now its all different. ON a budget i would agree....but i see both sides

Im going to wait until the heads and cam come in...do the tune with the new parts. I think that makes more sense

[RECHRGD]

Just my  , but wouldn't it be nice to know if your changes gained 10 hp or 100 hp over your baseline?  It would be information I would like to know and would be a good tool if you didn't gain your anticipated performance.

[Stegs]

it would be great to know, however i know that right now the car runs and drive ok. Its not great, but its not bad either. I also know that im not going to keep this configuration anyway.

I think what he was saying, is save the money for the parts.....rather than spend it on a tune that your just going to change down the road again


I would like to know what it makes now, just to know....but it could be a few hundred dollars just to find that out. That 200 could be better spent on a cam/lifters that will improve over what i have


I do know what your saying, determine a baseline and go from there......i get that. But when your trying to build the car right, 200 dollars would be better spent the right cam.lifters or the right intake

[PRH]

I'd offer him $125 for three pulls, no tuning.

I'm not sure I agree with the logic behind "it runs good now so I don't have to dyno it now".

I'm sure it will run and drive fine after the new parts are installed.......so you could argue it wouldn't need to be dynoed then either.

Lets say you dyno the car after the parts are installed and the numbers are down 25-50hp from what you're "expecting".
So then the question becomes, is the new combination of parts not delivering the expected gains over the old parts........or was the original combo so down on power that this is just where the added XXhp ended up?

When someone would bring me an already built and running motor that they were looking to make a power improvement on........... My preference was to dyno the motor "as is", so there was no question as to how much additional power the changes made.

[BSB67]

I had it rebuilt 2 years ago, told them i wanted a 9.5 compression engine...He ordered pistons that said 9.5, but when i had Ron do the math, he came up with 8.7:1

Funny.  I remember the story a bit differently.  I wonder what Bob remembers.......?

[Stegs]

I had it rebuilt 2 years ago, told them i wanted a 9.5 compression engine...He ordered pistons that said 9.5, but when i had Ron do the math, he came up with 8.7:1

Funny.  I remember the story a bit differently.  I wonder what Bob remembers.......?

how do you remember it? I sent ron the exact specs of the cam, heads, pistons etc that they installed on my car.....Ron said he figured the compression at 8.7:1

How do you figure different? im curious. I dont know how engine compression calculators work. I trust you guys (the experts)

[BSB67]

Well before you committed to those low compression pistons, Bob and I virtually begged you to not use them.  We knew that you did not know what you were doing and we tried to help you.  We told you your machinist was full of crap.  We repeatedly ask you to confirm part numbers, which I don't know if you never really ever did (to us) as they seemed to be a moving target. And finally you told us that your machinist knew what he was doing, implying that we did not.

Here, refresh your memory:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,116913.0.html

For zero additional dollars, you could have put in a zero deck piston.  Your car would not be the turd it is now, and no matter what you do, you'll never have decent quench.

This thread is no different than the last one....you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

[Stegs]

Well before you committed to those low compression pistons, Bob and I virtually begged you to not use them.  We knew that you did not know what you were doing and we tried to help you.  We told you your machinist was full of crap.  We repeatedly ask you to confirm part numbers, which I don't know if you never really ever did (to us) as they seemed to be a moving target. And finally you told us that your machinist knew what he was doing, implying that we did not.

Here, refresh your memory:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,116913.0.html

For zero additional dollars, you could have put in a zero deck piston.  Your car would not be the turd it is now, and no matter what you do, you'll never have decent quench.

This thread is no different than the last one....you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

IM sorry, you must be under the impression that i specifically ordered those pistons....i did not. I told my engine builder that i wanted my 440 to be atleast 9.5:1 compression with my iron heads. He ordered what he thought (what the catalog said) were 9.5:1 pistons with iron heads

It wasnt until after the fact that i found out its not anywhere close to what i wanted with iron heads


Thus, the boat im in. I have 2 options basically

1. tear the engine down and do it with other pistons
2. add 75cc aluminum heads (per rons great info) to bump my compression up and get more flow. he also suggested a lunati cam.

Seeing is how the heads and cam can be changed without pulling the motor out of the car and basically tearing the engine down....Ron suggested option 2.

That would be my best bet


Yes, i admit i should have had more input into the engine build. This guy built 2 motor for my friends. Both chevy 350s stroked to 383. Those motor are amazing. High horsepower, high revving, dang near bullet proof motors.  I guess when i told him i wanted a 9.5 compression motor that he would do it....but as it works out, its not.


Im dealt with what i have. Now is the time to improve, get the best out of it that i can. Yes i should have been more involved, no i didnt specifically order those pistons.

[PRH]

This thread is no different than the last one....you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

I think the gist of this comment is directed at the fact that on the initial build you didn't heed the advice of people that know and understand what it takes to make these motors/cars run well, and as result you ended up not getting what you had hoped for.

Now, those same people who tried to steer you in the right direction for your build have given you more advice(dyno before swapping parts), and again, you've decided to take a different path.

[Challenger340]

Stegs, my recollection of events are that you were specifically told during your Engine Machining, that the Pistons your Machinist was using were NOT anywhere close to your goals ? and specifically that the L2355 Piston would be a far better choice to bring to your so-called machinists attention ?

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,116913.0.html

No matter,  
moving forward ! and in efforts to assist you, because that is all anyone here is really trying to do for best outcomes ?
my  
if the Engine is currently running well as indicated ? and the current Elgin Cam events are KNOWN ?

* get a baseline Dyno run(s)
* before doing the Heads Swap or Cam selection ?
                                                   - do a cranking pressure test: * all 8 spark plugs out
                                                                                            * throttle plates wired wide open
                                                                                            * Ignition spark disabled
                                                                                            * 4 bumps only on a decent compression tester, record 4th and final bump
* Do the Head Swap
* report back here on the Compression pressure test, BEFORE selecting a Camshaft
* Re-Dyno with tuning

just say'in....
if you want the BEST results, IMO, that's the way I think you should go about it ?

Shameless plug here....
Duane(PRH) is on this forum now, if you can provide some further data/info as I describe above(or whatever he recommends), you will not find a better Guy to sell/grind a Cam for you and do this right !  
                                                   

[PRH]

I read through that previous thread......... All I can say is WOW!!!!

After all the warnings I don't see how it's possible that you had the motor built with anything other than l2355f or kb237 pistons.

I kinda feel like you should drive the car as-is for at least another season, as a reminder of how things turn out when you don't listen to good advice.

Russ........ I don't think he ever got close enough to the water to drink it.

However it does seem like he was drinking plenty of the kool-aid the engine shop was serving up(and we all know that nothing good comes after drinking the kool-aid).

Yes, i admit i should have had more input into the engine build.

Seriously?? You had all kinds of good advice....... You just decided to ignore it.

[cdr]

Listen Stegs, these guys are REALLY trying to help you, & they kNOW what they are doing , I agree on dyno the car now to get a base line, that way you will know what your new efforts have done on power.

[PRH]

I recently had a phone conversation with someone who just got their freshly built 446 off the dyno, and it's making noticeably less power than what the builder was preaching, and he's weighing his options before installing the motor.

The motor was built using the edelbrock rpm top end package...... Kind of.
Apparently they used the open chamber 88cc heads, and there "might be" quench dome pistons in it.

The edelbrock literature claims 482hp...... The builder was saying it should make 500-525hp....... What it actually made was 455hp.

We've discussed a cam swap and some head work, and possibly some head milling, depending on what the piston/quench situation is.
Honestly, I don't know how anyone would arrive at the conclusion that the open chamber heads and quench dome pistons are the hot ticket for a new build.

Oh....... It's supposedly like 9.75cr now....... But he lives in an area that's at around 5500' elevation....... So that wasnt thought out too thoroughly either.

[RECHRGD]

I was lucky enough to have both Duane and Ron involved with my 446 build about nine years ago.  I had always thought that my engine had six pack pistons in it and we based the build on that assumption.  When pulling the engine down for the new heads, cam and lifters, I found flat top pistons that were down in the hole about .062.  Luckily all the parts still made a huge difference in power and I later milled the heads and got a bit more.  We had originally been shooting for around 500hp, but because of my mistake on the pistons I'm probably 40 or 50 down from that goal.  I'm just trying to reinforce the importance of knowing everything possible about your engine before starting upgrades........

[Kern Dog]

After tuning, I would guess 275 hp.

I wonder how anyone can make an accurate estimate without even knowing the camshaft specs. Even a newbie to the hobby could read a magazine article and see that the RIGHT cam versus the WRONG cam makes a huge difference. Add to that: Carb jetting, ignition timing and curve, etc.

To the OP: I don't recall the drama of the past with the engine build. I can say though that the common saying "Engine builder is a Chevy guy" is not a line of bullshit. Some of those guys may be great machinists but that does not make them qualified to build a Ford/Chrysler/Saab/VW engine to their optimal performance. Think of it....Do you ask a proctologist for advice regarding back pain?  Mopars are not as mainstream as Chevys are. Most any machinist can order Chevy parts and know what they will end up with.

Also: I have been on the receiving end of some good advice here and on other Mopar forums. Some people get pissed or annoyed when you don't take their advice. Most of the time, it is because their advice could have averted some problems that still persist. Case in point: My 440/493 detonation issues I was having a few years back. I  was running very close to 11 to 1 compression and the engine would knock at anything over 1/2 throttle even with  91 octane gas. I knew that the proper fix was to pull the mill and swap in a different set of pistons. I was looking for a simpler fix. I had suggestions to slow the rate of advance in the distributor. Some said to try methanol injection, a cold air intake, a cooler thermostat.....Some suggested a camshaft with a later intake closing event to effectively allow LESS cylinder pressure to occur. That seemed to make sense.  The cam choice I made was based on the advice of a respected FABO member. That cam made things worse! It was faster than before but still knocked unless I ran 110 octane leaded gas! I was stubborn though, still didn't want to swap pistons. I ended up slipping in thicker head gaskets to drop the compression ratio almost a full point. Several people online advised against it but I went ahead and tried it. Afterwards, the engine has performed great and no longer knocks at all. It was along road to get here and I'm sure the engine would make more power if I had just went with new pistons. I even talked to Dwayne Porter, a respected engine builder out East. He was the only one of the few that I spoke with that really seemed to understand it. He didn't think a cam swap would be the right way to go. His suggestion was an interesting one: He thought I should pull the pistons and have .040 milled off the valve relief side to increase the chamber volume, zero deck the block to increase quench and run a standard .039 Fel Pro head gasket. This was an alternative to dished pistons. It was a great idea, one that I still may try sometime ahead.

[PRH]

I punched a few numbers into the calculator......

I don't know if the "actual" build specs of the OP's current motor are known or not.......  But, assuming a deck height of 10.720, using the taller of the oem replacement cast pistons(1.969"), using a .027" cometic gasket and 75cc heads......... It still only works out to 9.3cr.

IMO, a much more cost effective plan on getting a better "overall" package would be to replace the pistons with some KB184 quench dome pistons, and have the quench pad area of the heads equalized, then milled to facilitate the protrusion of the new pistons quench dome.
It's more work, but less $$$ since you're not buying new heads, and when you're done you have decent compression and good quench.
A cam upgrade could be done at the same time, since there's definitely room for improvement there.

If in fact the motor was built with the 1276 pistons(the ones mentioned in the thread in the link), then the cr will still be in the 8's even with the new heads(unless a bunch of milling is done to them).

[BSB67]

This thread is no different than the last one....you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

I think the gist of this comment is directed at the fact that on the initial build you didn't heed the advice of people that know and understand what it takes to make these motors/cars run well, and as result you ended up not getting what you had hoped for.

Now, those same people who tried to steer you in the right direction for your build have given you more advice(dyno before swapping parts), and again, you've decided to take a different path.

Yes.  Thanks