It's official! The great white is getting EFI and a manual 6 speed

[Dino]

As some of you know, my car's been on jack stands ever since I started grad school last May. And although I may have some time to tinker with it here and there in my upcoming second year of school, I really won't be able to put a good amount of time in it until after graduation and the certification exam. Heck, I may not even have a ton of time then since I'm actually supposed to go get a job but dammit I want my car back so I'll make time!   

Anyway, the car has its freshly rebuilt and painted engine and trans in place and the interior is still out because I have to finish up the power window install and the alarm and GPS and stuff. I don't have a carb for it either and I always wanted EFI a T-56 instead of the 727. So yesterday my wife and I are talking about the car and she said why are you putting the whole car back together to then take it back apart to fit a new trans? And why spend money on a carb when you can get EFI now? We both hate the fuel smell and are kinda tired of our clothes reeking of fuel. Especially since I tend to drive this thing to work a lot. I didn't have a good answer for her so it looks like I'll be dropping that freshly cleaned up 727 before it ever saw the road, and cutting my trans tunnel! Looks like I'm also removing the new gas tank that has a whopping 50 miles on it if that.   

I could've saved myself a ton of work by not doing the trans but oh well. Apologies to Jeff for helping me muscle the trans in...for nothing.   

But damn! A 6 speed AND EFI behind my 440? This sucker's gonna rock!   

Now I need to find a good trans with the right gears. I'm not sure if I need to go all out and get the Viper version or if a Trans Am or Camaro trans will do. My wife's T/A has a T56 and is way quicker off the line than my Charger so I'm assuming it'll hold up behind my nearly stock 440. I shouldn't be pushing more than 400 hp and 500 torque, if that. It's basically a stock '71 HP with a Crower HDP271, stock '71 intake manifold, and HP exhaust manifolds. Around 9:1 static compression. Stock exhaust. Nothing more than a fun driver. I drive it like a regular car with the occasional pedal mash from a stop out here in the country. Honestly the 727 works great and is a lot of fun in town with the current 3.23 gears, but it's not so much fun on the highway and I really miss driving a stick.

I'll probably be looking for a sure grip as well. My open 3.23s with 28" tall tires is not going to be the ideal setup and take advantage of the extra gears, but it's not the worst either I suppose. The T/A has about the same size tire as the Charger and I think the gears are in the 3.5 range so I should go with a 3.55 as I like the rpm that car is running in town and on the highway.

I recall Keepat had a very cool way of adapting his trans tunnel for one of these and I believe he kept the console as well. I may be wrong, I'll have to look through his Bullitt thread.

I'm not starting this project any time soon, but it's probably a good idea to start planning.

[1970Moparmann]

Very cool!    You only live once.    Hot Rod Power Tour is in your future!

[cbrestorations]

3.55 is too low for a 6 speed, 3.73 is even too low. if you have a decent cammed engine ur gonna need atleast 3.91's. the t56 has a .63 overdrive so .63x3.91= 2.46 final. the swap i did for a friend, he has 3.73's and hardly ever uses 6th gear even on the freeway local driving. with his cam in 6th gear below 70mph it bucks till the rpms get higher to around 80mph. the swap i did using a tr6060 will need 4.30's, the tr6060 has a .5 overdrive so a 4.30 turns into a 2.15 final.

i dont really like 6 speed. in order to get the 6th gear final ratio nice you are killing 1st gear. the 5 speeds have better ratio's

[JR]

I have no experience with the six speed, but I can promise you that you'll LOVE the EFI Dino. It's fantastic. Ive never been so pleased with a modification as I am with EFI.

What setup are you looking at?

[XH29N0G]

I hadn't thought about the gears.  I am using 4:30's with a 0.62 5 speed and it works well in 5th above 50.  Some of the lower limit on mine is related to the engine set up.  Mine is not radical, but I think it were a little milder (and had EFI) it would work well at lower speeds without feeling like it was lugging.  If you change the gearing, you will also want to make sure the angles and balance on the driveshaft are right.  I don't know about lighter driveshafts, but wonder whether that would have saved a lot of chasing down issues for me.  Once set up, it is great though.

You will have a lot of fun with it.

[Dino]

Thanks for the info cb, that's good to know. I'm not opposed to installing a 5 speed, I just don't know which would be the ideal candidate.

I agree that a 6th gear is not necessary, but I really like how the T-56 shifts and I like the ratio in the T/A. There's certainly nothing wrong with a steeper gear to get quicker off the line. However, and this is really important to me, I do not want to have to shift three gears before I hit 30 mph.  

I will never race this car and I want to make sure it drives like a solid daily. But please keep the gear and trans info coming, I want to learn.  

JR I think the setup you have is what I'm going with. I don't have the time or patience to build a sequential system and after reading your feedback I was sold on it. I'd like to get the tank with the built in pump as well. Is that what you have?

[Dino]

Yeah gearing is something I really need to be educated on XH. I really thought the T/A had around the 3.5 mark and it's really nice. I neglected to mention that we don't use 6th gear unless we're on the highway at decent speed. I barely runs 1500 rpm at 75 or so, so there's definitely room to add gear. But I should see what rpm it's running in 1-5th gear.

I actually have a nice set of open 3:55s in the shed that I can try. Won't cost me anything.

I have read about the driveline angle issues so that's definitely something to plan well. I'd hate to have this thing vibrate.

[JR]

Yes Dino, Im using the Tanks Inc setup with the 630hp rated Walbro fuel pump. It's been a great setup, and it's a very clean install.

http://www.tanksinc.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=484/category_id=146/mode=prod/prd484.htm

Only thing to keep in mind is, order the cork gaskets for the sending unit/fuel pump, instead of using the rubber ones that are supplied. The rubber ones will break down after exposure to modern ethanol type fuel. Using the cork ones are foolproof. (I also use aircraft sealer on them, makes for a great seal.)

And you can use reproduction fuel line, with AN hoses on either end, just make sure the hard lines are steel, not aluminum. The feed line must be atleast 3/8, and the return line must be atleast 5/16.

Personally, I really like 3/8 for feed and return lines. That's what mine is now, and I noticed after I upsized the return line, the fuel pump ran MUCH quieter. With the smaller return line, sometimes the pump would groan on a really hot day after 2 hours of driving. Now I can drive all day, and the fuel pump stays quiet.

[birdsandbees]

Sounds like you found a good one as well Dirk!!  

As for the car stuff.. that's secondary to what the two of us seem to have backing us up in life!  

Wayne

[lukedukem]

What are you gonna do with that automatic

Luke

[Dino]

You bet Wayne! I've got a keeper for sure.  

Thanks JR  

I installed oem steel fuel lines a few years back, 3/8 in and 1/4 out so I'll have to replace the latter. I'm not opposed to yanking both lines out and running something else that would be better. I just installed these because I was running a single 5/16 line (originally a 318 car), and I wanted dual lines with a vapor separator. Dammit I just realized I need to remove the mechanical pump now. I could've just left all that crap off...  

I was going to ask you about noise. I do not want to hear that pump at all, it drives me crazy. With the dual 3/8 line is it dead quiet at all times?

If you don't mind me asking, how much did the entire EFI setup cost? Around $2K?

[Dino]

What are you gonna do with that automatic

Luke

I'm not sure yet. Once I have all the manual parts I'll probably sell it, I don't have any use for it. But I'm not doing so until I'm positive I can have the manual. If for whatever reason something comes up and I have to wait with that upgrade, like a market crash, I'll at least be able to drive the car with the auto.

[XH29N0G]

I wasn't advocating a 5 speed although they are fine too.  

I just took a look at the gearing and the T56 looks like it has a nice set of ranges.  For the 0.64 final, the 5th on the T56 looks to be inserted between the 4th and the 5th on the 5 speed.  I think this would be nicer on the highway and give another option.  the 5 speed is like a 4 speed with an overdrive.  

[1970Moparmann]

I have a TKO600 5 Speed, and wish I bought the 6 speed.   I have 3.73 gears.   When doing a good amount of highway driving, the 6th gear would be nice.   

[Dino]

I was thinking about the 5 speed but then realized how many times I chose not to do a long trip because of the lack of gears. The 6th gear would be awesome on those long trips.   

I just looked up the T-56 gearing and i looks like I have options. Not all are created equally though so I should probably either buy a new trans or find a nice Viper unit or the same unit as my wife's car. Same ratio and torque rating with a .50 6th gear. This is gonna cost a few nickels.      

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg-Warner_T-56_transmission

[JR]

If youre going to run AN hoses all the way Dino, be sure to get the ones that are coated internally to prevent ethanol fuel from eating it. Some an hoses break down, and fuel smell will start seeping through the rubber, along with dislodged rubber particles coming through the line.

Personally, I bought standard AN hose, but I kept 2 OE 3/8 hard lines to run the majority of the length, minimized the length of AN lines I needed, and use ethanol free fuel when possible. Been working great for over a year now.

Cost wise, I went with the FiTech power adder 30004, which is currently at 1200. The fuel tank/pump setup is around 500. It's easy to eat a couple hundred bucks in various fittings and AN hose, so may as well figure 2k. (Although you could save a couple hundred bucks if you got the standard FITech without timing control.)

Some will say to buy the "Fuel Command Module" instead, and keep your stock lines/fuel system. I really don't like that idea for numerous reasons. (An extra fuel pump to fail, fuel is kept underhood in the hottest place, big ugly tank taking up space in the engine bay, etc.)

It's totally worth the cost though. I haven't fiddled with the carb, changed jets, or got out of the car smelling like fuel once since I installed it. I drove the car for 2.5 hours yesterday, and didn't have to change clothes afterwards to get rid of the fuel smell, which alone makes it worth it. Plus, the exhaust smell doesn't burn my eyes anymore.

Noise wise, I can hear the pump when I turn the switch on, but once the engine is running I can't hear it at all. But having the fuel pump submersed in the fuel makes it MUCH quieter. I have no complaints about the noise at all. It's nothing at all like an old external mount Holley Blue pump.

[Dino]

It's definitely worth it just to get rid of the smell. My car has always had it real bad, no matter what carb I was running. I couldn't drive with my windows down unless on the highway. The only way to keep the smell out was to keep the windows up and the a/c on which is fine when it's 95 out, but sucks when it's a nice 75. That just asks for windows down.   

I'll go with 3/8 steel lines, the oem type seem to do fine with the fuel I'm running. I'll be sure to get coated AN lines, thanks for the tip. I didn't like the idea of the command center either. Seems that the entire setup is not all that bad cost wise, at least for what you're getting. I also drive the car in winter before the snow hits but that means 30 degree mornings. It'll be nice to have it start and drive a bit better when it's that cold.

The trans is going to be another story, that's going to be a hefty price tag AND will need some serious mods to the car, but I think it's so worth it. I can't wait!

After all is said and done this car will have a well tuned 440 with a 6 speed, EFI, one touch power windows with remote control capabilities, alarm system, remote starter, remote door and trunk locks, and hidden GPS. Apart from the GPS everything has been installed and tested. I just need to move the alarm modules to its permanent location, install the auxiliary fuse box, and run the feed wires for it. Yeah this is gonna be a blast.   

Oh, sinceI just installed these Mopar ribbed cast aluminum valve covers, can I run the matching air cleaner with the EFI system? Do you have underhood pics of yours by the way? Now would be a good time to adapt the electrical where needed.

[INTMD8]

i dont really like 6 speed. in order to get the 6th gear final ratio nice you are killing 1st gear. the 5 speeds have better ratio's

Have to agree, I would probably go with a 5 speed as well. Easier to get a mechanical speedo output and likely less work to fit in the tunnel.

If you really want the 6 speed a stock T56 would probably live but the later 6060/Magnum is an upgrade.

Use teflon braded a/n hose if you want to eliminate the possibility of fuel odor.

[JR]

Those electronics sound awesome. The GPS tracking, remote start and locking feature would be awesome. What system do you recommend if I wanted to duplicate that?

Does the GPS system require a subscription service?

[darbgnik]

So I was pretty sure there were many ratio options available in the T56 besides overdrive, as I know even between Vipers with the TR6060 there are different 5th gear options as well, but I figured I'd dig before I posted, and I found this, depending on which T56 you get, you'll want a different rear end ratio, as these are just the GM versions:


Application                                             First        Second      Third       Fourth     Fifth       Sixth
1993 F-body(2.73 rear)                          3.36:1      2.07:1      1.35:1     1.00:1    0.80:1     0.62:1
1993 F-body(3.23 rear)                          2.97:1      2.07:1      1.43:1     1.00:1    0.80:1     0.62:1
1994–1997 F-body                                 2.66:1      1.78:1      1.30:1     1.00:1    0.74:1     0.50:1
1997–2004 Corvette                               2.66:1      1.78:1      1.30:1     1.00:1    0.74:1     0.50:1
1998–2002 F-body                                 2.66:1      1.78:1      1.30:1     1.00:1    0.74:1     0.50:1
2001–2004 Corvette Z06                        2.97:1      2.07:1      1.43:1     1.00:1    0.84:1     0.56:1
2004–2006 Cadillac CTS-V                      2.97:1      2.07:1      1.43:1     1.00:1    0.84:1     0.56:1
2004–2006 GTO                                    2.97:1       2.07:1      1.43:1     1.00:1    0.84:1     0.56:1


http://www.hotrod.com/articles/everything-you-need-to-know-about-selecting-a-t56-for-your-gm-project/

[Dino]

I'm running an Avital 5303L alarm which comes with one LCD fob and one regular fob. It has loads of options like alarm going off when you open the hood and such. It also has options like tilt sensor, glass break sensor and a bunch more. Cool stuff. There's several alarms like this like Viper etc. They're all fine. The window modules are DEI 530T's and one operates two windows so I got two of them. I'm using stock switches that now operate like modern car switches. With the remote you can vent the windows about an inch or open them all the way. When you lock the car the roll up automatically although there's an option to leave them down.
I'm not using a subscription GPS, I'm rigging up my own system that I can track with my phone or laptop. There's many ways to do this so google around for homemade GPS systems. You can wire in an old cellphone even to keep it cheap. I try not to post GPS details online.  
However once I have it narrowed down I'll be happy to pm you.

I'm also installing a hydroboost system and big discs all around. I'm assuming I'll need a clutch reservoir under the system so I'll have to look into that to make sure everything fits. I'd like to get stock 4 speed pedals to keep something a bolt in at least. There's gonna be a lot of fabbing to do. I think the trans crossmember needs to be cut out of the tunnel to fit this monster trans.

Thanks for that Darbgnik, my wife's is the 5th one down.   

[birdsandbees]

0.62:1 would have had me dead in 1979 !!!  1 to 1 with 2.94's had the speedo wrapped back to Zero.. 

[Dino]

I think I can get this thing to lift off with that trans! Let's not find out.   

[JR]

Great info Dino. I understand about keeping the GPS stuff secret, no problem there.

I've always wanted remote start and door/trunk unlock. With EFI and my auto transmission, that should be an easy add on. Its on my list of stuff to add. Hopefully I can get to that soon, thanks.

[Dino]

It's real easy to do, except that once more you'll be taking half the car apart to reach all the wires you need! The remote door unlock was pretty straightforward. I just got 2 heavy duty motors off ebay which came with a few rods, brackets, and screws. I looked at the best way to mount them which was straight onto the unlock pull rod and it works like a charm. I have pics of it on here somewhere...

The alarm is also pretty easy, you just need to splice in a bunch of wires and run some dedicated power wires. Same with the window modules. I went the safe route and ran dedicated power wires for everything so each had its own fuse as well. In case something goes poof it won't take me long to find the culprit.

Oh and the trunk lock came out of an 80s Chrysler. A diplomat I think. Straight bolt in, couldn't be easier.