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Thoughts on street engine.

Started by Bad B-rad, January 22, 2017, 04:07:25 PM

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Bad B-rad

For a 2nd gen Charger running 727 trans and 3.23 sure grip,what engine would you run. Goal being to be able to daily drive the car, (around town,nice country back roads, and long highway trips,you know drive like a car should)so it must be reliable(most Mopar engines are)and reasonable MPG, AND at least hold it's own if lined up at a stoplight vs  any one within reason,(not gonna be racing many Vipers or Vettes, or Hellcats, so like Camero's Mustangs, maybe other Muscle cars)
Engine options are Mild 383,(stock magnum motor,with maybe a bump up in camshaft,and 440 stealth heads,carb and headers,with duel x-pipe exhaust.
OR STOCK 6.1 HEMI, with mild cam, and same duel X-pipe exhaust. I am undecided if the 6.1 would be carb or FI.(I know what is required to put the 6.1 in an older Mopar, lets just put that all aside and just talk about the two motors in the same car with the same trans and gears). If those were your two choices what would you run and why? And on the 6.1 would you go carb or keep the FI. (I would have to get some black wrinkle valve covers, and hide the coils like the INDY engines so it kinds LOOKS old school) 
I have had 383 engines before and they run great, would the 6.1 be faster? Would it get better MPG?
I know stock, on paper the 6.1 has more HP and they are close or equal in PEAK torque numbers, but in rear world stop light drags,how would the two engines behave? 
For all the cost/trouble of slapping in a 6.1 Hemi, I would hope it would be a better engine choice, but I think the 383 may just put out more torque and therefore run a little better on the street.
That's the question I would like feedback on. What would you run given only those two options and how would they preform?
Thanks in advance for advice and opinion's.

Mike DC

 
You can't go wrong with a mildly hopped-up 383.  It makes a ton of usable torque for the displacement. 


Bad B-rad

I agree, I am a HUGE 383 fan, they are great engines, I have never owned a 6.1 Hemi, I have owned three 5.7 hemi motors, two in cars and one truck,so I am very curious to know what would be a better daily street engine with a 3 speed auto, the 383 or the 6.1?

c00nhunterjoe

A mild 383 will not hold its own against anything within reason today. A mild 440 has a hard time doing that anymore from a stop light given your 3.23 stipulation.
   Fuel economy? From a big block? Seriously? What are you expecting cause reality will be 10-13 mpg if you baby it. If you wanted fuel economy then you shouldnt be looking for a 2 ton car with a big block.
  A mild 383 will end up in the 350 flywheel hp and a mild 440 will be in the 400 hp range. In a w ton car, you will be eaten alive by 305 camaros and 302 mustangs. A mild 440 charger might run mid to low 13s with 3.23s in it while most fox body (87-93) mustangs are deep into the 11s with just a few bolt ons.
  If you want raw power with 3.23s and a mild mannered cam, then we are right back to where we have all told you on the last topics you poster  of a stroker motor.
  A mild 383 built to the "magnum" specs you have been describing with 3.23s will get you a mid to low 14 second charger. Period.
    A properly built, high compression 383 with aluminum heads, big cam, a loose converter and 4.56s will be in the 11s and be able to compete light to light with camaros and mustangs as stated in the origonal post but will not meet your criteria.

Bad B-rad

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on January 22, 2017, 06:00:50 PM
A mild 383 will not hold its own against anything within reason today. A mild 440 has a hard time doing that anymore from a stop light given your 3.23 stipulation.
    Fuel economy? From a big block? Seriously? What are you expecting cause reality will be 10-13 mpg if you baby it. If you wanted fuel economy then you shouldnt be looking for a 2 ton car with a big block.
   A mild 383 will end up in the 350 flywheel hp and a mild 440 will be in the 400 hp range. In a w ton car, you will be eaten alive by 305 camaros and 302 mustangs. A mild 440 charger might run mid to low 13s with 3.23s in it while most fox body (87-93) mustangs are deep into the 11s with just a few bolt ons.
   If you want raw power with 3.23s and a mild mannered cam, then we are right back to where we have all told you on the last topics you poster  of a stroker motor.
   A mild 383 built to the "magnum" specs you have been describing with 3.23s will get you a mid to low 14 second charger. Period.
    A properly built, high compression 383 with aluminum heads, big cam, a loose converter and 4.56s will be in the 11s and be able to compete light to light with camaros and mustangs as stated in the origonal post but will not meet your criteria.


Why is it some guy just like to argue about everthing and prove how big their cock is?
I have had many Mopar big block b-bodies and a few a bodies(small block)  and one e-body. If I only want fuel economy I will drive my 2016 Charger R/T(18-19 mpg and 370hp)
I have had monster 440's my last 66 Charger had built 440 ,

Mike DC

  
I call a mildly hopped-up 383 a good motor because it's fun to drive.  

I think of competing with other cars as mostly a different topic.  "Fast according to a time clock" and "fun to drive" are two different things.  Minivans and FWD sedans are getting pretty fast these days, but they aren't fun to drive.


c00nhunterjoe

Quote from: Bad B-rad on January 22, 2017, 07:01:32 PM
Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on January 22, 2017, 06:00:50 PM
A mild 383 will not hold its own against anything within reason today. A mild 440 has a hard time doing that anymore from a stop light given your 3.23 stipulation.
   Fuel economy? From a big block? Seriously? What are you expecting cause reality will be 10-13 mpg if you baby it. If you wanted fuel economy then you shouldnt be looking for a 2 ton car with a big block.
  A mild 383 will end up in the 350 flywheel hp and a mild 440 will be in the 400 hp range. In a w ton car, you will be eaten alive by 305 camaros and 302 mustangs. A mild 440 charger might run mid to low 13s with 3.23s in it while most fox body (87-93) mustangs are deep into the 11s with just a few bolt ons.
  If you want raw power with 3.23s and a mild mannered cam, then we are right back to where we have all told you on the last topics you poster  of a stroker motor.
  A mild 383 built to the "magnum" specs you have been describing with 3.23s will get you a mid to low 14 second charger. Period.
   A properly built, high compression 383 with aluminum heads, big cam, a loose converter and 4.56s will be in the 11s and be able to compete light to light with camaros and mustangs as stated in the origonal post but will not meet your criteria.


Why is it some guy just like to argue about everthing and prove how big their cock is?
I have had many Mopar big block b-bodies and a few a bodies(small block)  and one e-body. If I only want fuel economy I will drive my 2016 Charger R/T(18-19 mpg and 370hp)
I have had monster 440's my last 66 Charger had built 440 ,

I have nothing to prove and your comments about my "member" are rude, irrelevant and out of line. You should be reported and reprimanded at minimum for that comment.

YOUR 1st post said it had to have  REASONABLE FUEL ECONOMY, and be able to HOLD ITS OWN AGAINST MUSTANGS CAMAROS AND OTHER MUSCLE CARS. Those were your words, not mine. A 383 BUILT TO MAGNUM SPECS, also your words, will NOT do that. Period. No matter what heads you drop on it afterwords. If you are an expert as you are stating, then what are you asking, besides the size of my genitals?

Edit- fwiw, and really not worth crap to you, but i am also a huge fan of 383s. My last one ran quite well and i have 3 more in the shed ready to go. What does that prove? Nothing.

Bad B-rad

report what ever you want, that got sent before I finished it all. It went on to say that I think you  know a thing or two about these cars and I can learn from you but for some reason you come across abrasive toward me. I am no idiot, I have ,have many big block chargers  and few dusters and a challenger, I don't post on here to argue, I do it to learn. How do I learn by asking questions. And maybe its me maybe I read something and I took it the wrong way. I am man enough to admit that. But if I don't like what someone  writes I don't feel the need to talk down to them, I just move on. Maybe it's that time of the month for me and I just took it the wrong way. But it kind of sounded that way about busting chops about fuel economy and "we are right back were we all told you before"
Du? a 69 big block fuel economy. I would guess that most people would know I mean in the scope of 69 big blocks not 2016 Hondas.
So sorry if my questions bug you but what is great about the USA is you don't have to like me and I don't have to like you.
But I want to learn and I will continue to ask for advice and questions in the quest to gain info. There is more then one way to get what we want out of these car's and we all don't have to have strokers. If I stroke a 383 then I lose what I like about it the short stroke. So I am not sure a stroked 383 is for me. IMO why stroke a 383 when they make 440's. If I want cubes then I can stroke a 440. So there is more then one way to get engines to produce.

Bad B-rad

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on January 22, 2017, 07:14:00 PM
 
I call a mildly hopped-up 383 a good motor because it's fun to drive. 

I think of competing with other cars as mostly a different topic.  "Fast according to a time clock" and "fun to drive" are two different things.  Minivans and FWD sedans are getting pretty fast these days, but they aren't fun to drive.


I agree. But it sucks to take out your Charger and get beat in an acceleration contest by a mini-van ya know. We all love these cars, and we all or most of us want then to preform very well, I mean we drive CHARGERS right. And they can't loose.
Or we/I don't want to.
If my 69 was as fast or faster then my 2016 R/T that would be a great starting point. If I built an engine and the first few times I had it out It was to that standard I would be happy to improve upon that.
I am not an expert or rich, just a heavy equipment mechanic with wife two kids, house and the same bills as everyone else, and a life long passion for Mopar muscle.So I can't afford to build ten engines and pick the one that suits me best. I can only ask questions and go off what I have had in the past and what other people say/advise. For me a 4.56 rear end car is not streetable, or fun for any long drive at or above 55mph. Maybe 4.56 work for you,thats fine. I have never had a 6.1.
You know how there is more then one way to skin a cat, same thing with engine building. Many ways to get what we want out of these cars.I am trying to find out what would be best for me. At this point on this build.
And I want to drive my car, that's how I enjoy it the most,driving.
I hope some of you maybe have a 6.1 and can say how it runs in your car, that may also not be right for me at this time with this build. But only one way to find out.

c00nhunterjoe

Quote from: Bad B-rad on January 22, 2017, 08:11:45 PM
report what ever you want, that got sent before I finished it all. It went on to say that I think you  know a thing or two about these cars and I can learn from you but for some reason you come across abrasive toward me. I am no idiot, I have ,have many big block chargers  and few dusters and a challenger, I don't post on here to argue, I do it to learn. How do I learn by asking questions. And maybe its me maybe I read something and I took it the wrong way. I am man enough to admit that. But if I don't like what someone  writes I don't feel the need to talk down to them, I just move on. Maybe it's that time of the month for me and I just took it the wrong way. But it kind of sounded that way about busting chops about fuel economy and "we are right back were we all told you before"
Du? a 69 big block fuel economy. I would guess that most people would know I mean in the scope of 69 big blocks not 2016 Hondas.
So sorry if my questions bug you but what is great about the USA is you don't have to like me and I don't have to like you.
But I want to learn and I will continue to ask for advice and questions in the quest to gain info. There is more then one way to get what we want out of these car's and we all don't have to have strokers. If I stroke a 383 then I lose what I like about it the short stroke. So I am not sure a stroked 383 is for me. IMO why stroke a 383 when they make 440's. If I want cubes then I can stroke a 440. So there is more then one way to get engines to produce.

Im not rude. Im just not sugar coating anything. I posted straight facts. Your requirements cannot be met with a mild, 3.23 geared 383. They cannot be met with a stock 6.1, 727 and 3.23s either. My statement regarding you reasking the same question is valid as well. Has nothing to do with me. You are asking the same question again looking for a different answer.
   The reason everyone is saying to build a stroker is because it will actually be cheaper then building the 383, will have uncomparable hp and torque numbers to the 383, will make that hp and torque at a much lower rpm then the 383. All of these benefits fit your requirements for what the car needs to do.
    Before i go much further, please elaborate on your statement regarding what you love about the short stroke that you dont want to lose?

Bad B-rad

I didn't ask you to sugar coat anything,my first question was about building a high compression 383/400. And if you could gain any horsepower by going with a stock stroke,fairly stock Magnum/roadrunner cam, higher compression and a set of 440 stealth heads,painted with a mopar M1-duel plane painted intake. So I would have a stock looking engine that may make a good amount more power then stock,but look stock. And you said no, you got to build a stoker. That's fine it can't be done, I got it. I moved on. Next I asked what would run better a mild stock 383 or stock mild 6.1 Hemi. I never had a 6.1 so maybe it will work maybe it won't. On paper the 6.1 has what like 100 more hp and I think the same torque as a 383, so what dose that look like in real life?
If all things are the same and a 383 and 6.1 hemi pull up next to each other how dose that race go down? Will the 383 jump out and then the Hemi flys by and is gone? Or maybe the 383 jumps out, the hemi catches it and they run neck and neck down the strip? I don't know but I would like to know.
That's a different question. Maybe what I want out of my car/engine build can not be achieved and I  have to build a stroker or 440. But can't I want what I want? I have never had a stroker motor, just stock stroke 440's and 383's. And maybe the parts are lighter now, but the engines I had the 383's power comes on differently then the 440. The 383 revs quicker then the 440. That's some thing that I like. That's a trait I would like my current build to have. Now once that 440's power comes on, every one I ever had, except maybe the 78 smog engine 440 ,will fly past my 383's But by that time we may be doing 60-70mph and may be out of room. Most speed limits here in NY are 65 tops.
Now take that same bad ass 440 and run it vs a new 6.1 in a Charger or Challenger and what would you say happens. How do you think that race goes down?

c00nhunterjoe

The high compression 383 with aluminum heads will obviously make more power then the stock magnum bottom end that you are referencing in this topic. This topic you still stipulated that it needs to beat mustangs camaros and other muscle cars with a 3.23 gear. There is just no way that its going to happen.
As far as 383 vs 440 vs 6.1 goes. Given the 383 and 440 are built the exact same- the 383 will most likely be a half second slower then the 440. The 6.1 will probably be 2 tenths faster then the 440 assuming you retain the factory injection and computer and 5 speed nag1 trans.  The 383 and 440 will launch the same with the 440 starting to pull away at the 60' mark and gently pulling a half car length on the 383 by the end. The nag1 allows the 6.1 to jump out like a stick car and closer ratios walk it out a car length by the end of the 1/4 mile.
 
   As to the 383 revving faster then the 440. I assure you, making the 383 into a 438 will spin up faster then the 383 or 440.

Bad B-rad

Or even that 440 vs a 5.7 Hemi?
By stroking a 383 what are you doing? You are giving it more cubes, right? And no replacement for displacement correct?
Well why will the 440 lose to the 6.1. Not because of cubes,because of flow and efficiency.
I don't know what kind of cars run on the street by you but I don't come across street cars pulling 11's in the 1/4 mile, that often. And if I do it almost never an older mustang or camero, Its a Vette or a NEW muscle car. So I don't need to do that either. low 13's or even dipping into the 12's is fine with me. Do that and be able to drive the hell out of it.
As I said if I could make my 69 run a touch better then a new R/T or SRT that's great. Not to handle better but straight line acceleration, as good or better that would be my goal for now.
And maybe for that to happen I might need a 500+CI motor, given a 727 trans and 3.23 gears. But I would like to do it, If I can with maybe modern Hemi. As we have ruled out a stock looking 383(not stroked)  

c00nhunterjoe

Cars by me are running 9s on the street.... but its not everywhere, i get that. But a stock 302 in a fox body mustang with just a cam, headers intake and gear will run 12s. And those are everywhere. My 2007 charger rt ran 13.20s on the stock tires. On slicks it could have dipped into the 12s. Mine was only rated at 350 horse, the new ones are 390? I think? My analogy of the 440 losing to the 6.1 is because the 6.1 makes more hp and the 5 speed automatic puts it in the powerband better then the 727.
  The 383 stroker gets a new crank, new rods and lighter pistons. The total rotating mass of a 383 to 438 is less then that of a stock 440 therefore spinning up faster and using less hp to do it.

How fast can a stroker spin up? Here is our 572. Watch the tach. After launch it goes on a throttle stop for roughly 3 seconds then goes wide open. Runs 9.90 at 155mph.
https://youtu.be/2ciFpx9QaxQ

Bad B-rad

See the advantage of the new cars with the new transmissions is not something I will have, because at best I could have a 46re(need computer won't bolt to Big block,may not handle BB) or 518 trans.
So if I am limited by budget and what will fit with out cutting up the car, I am prob gonna  stay with the 727 and 3.23 is prob the deepest gear I will want to run,maybe 3.55. But on my last ride I didn't like the 3.91,the bad out weighted the good with those gears for me, on the street.

When I asked about a basicly stock 383 magnum build with just a boost in compression and aluminum heads, the response was you wont get any real measurable gain in power with that combo. So I moved on to maybe the 6.1.

What do you think a 6.1 with the FI but a 727 looks like vs a 440? Everything the same trans,gears weight, car, just the 440 vs the 6.1 both stock engines. Do you think the 440's torque just beats the 6.1 hp advantage?

c00nhunterjoe

Quote from: Bad B-rad on January 22, 2017, 10:29:55 PM
See the advantage of the new cars with the new transmissions is not something I will have, because at best I could have a 46re(need computer won't bolt to Big block,may not handle BB) or 518 trans.
So if I am limited by budget and what will fit with out cutting up the car, I am prob gonna  stay with the 727 and 3.23 is prob the deepest gear I will want to run,maybe 3.55. But on my last ride I didn't like the 3.91,the bad out weighted the good with those gears for me, on the street.

When I asked about a basicly stock 383 magnum build with just a boost in compression and aluminum heads, the response was you wont get any real measurable gain in power with that combo. So I moved on to maybe the 6.1.

What do you think a 6.1 with the FI but a 727 looks like vs a 440? Everything the same trans,gears weight, car, just the 440 vs the 6.1 both stock engines. Do you think the 440's torque just beats the 6.1 hp advantage?

I cant recall the torque curve on the 6.1 but i think its comparable to the 440 so the 6.q should pull ahead even behind a 727. Its alot more cost putting the 6.1 in the car and will still be slower then most cars on the street. The link to russ's website is really the route you want to go based on what you want out of the car with 3.23s, a mild sounding, stock appearing engine. He runs low 11s through exhaust manifolds and 3.23s, drives it something like 50 miles to the track and back, and cruises it everywhere. Its turn key reliable. Has a mild cam so its not hard on the valvetrain, and is not really all that hard to duplicate. His is a 505 if i recall, so you could do the 496 or 470 cube version and be running high 11s or low 12s in a mild mannered cruiser with stump pulling torque off idle.

Bad B-rad

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on January 22, 2017, 10:28:38 PM
Cars by me are running 9s on the street.... but its not everywhere, i get that. But a stock 302 in a fox body mustang with just a cam, headers intake and gear will run 12s. And those are everywhere. My 2007 charger rt ran 13.20s on the stock tires. On slicks it could have dipped into the 12s. Mine was only rated at 350 horse, the new ones are 390? I think? My analogy of the 440 losing to the 6.1 is because the 6.1 makes more hp and the 5 speed automatic puts it in the powerband better then the 727.
  The 383 stroker gets a new crank, new rods and lighter pistons. The total rotating mass of a 383 to 438 is less then that of a stock 440 therefore spinning up faster and using less hp to do it.

How fast can a stroker spin up? Here is our 572. Watch the tach.
https://youtu.be/2ciFpx9QaxQ


Ok So that I get. If the stroker is lighter, and a whole lot lighter then the org rotating mass that it can rev as quick or quicker the the shorter stroke engine. I NEVER had a stroker so I didn't know about the parts being so much lighter.
See buy wording it that way I get it I understand that maybe your stroker can rev as quick or faster then stock 383. But then I would still hold on to the thought that if I  go stroker, wouldn't the 440 offer an obvious advantage for me. Unless the heads ability to flow enough air for the extra cubes becomes the problem? Is that the issue that mildly worked head flow enough for 450 or so cubes but that above that the cost to work the heads to handle the extra CI out weighs the lower cost of the stroked 383 vs the stroked 440?
I can see that there is not much of a down side to that NOW. If the longer stroke can rev faster then the stock stroke, then really no negative.

Bad B-rad

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on January 22, 2017, 10:42:00 PM
Quote from: Bad B-rad on January 22, 2017, 10:29:55 PM
See the advantage of the new cars with the new transmissions is not something I will have, because at best I could have a 46re(need computer won't bolt to Big block,may not handle BB) or 518 trans.
So if I am limited by budget and what will fit with out cutting up the car, I am prob gonna  stay with the 727 and 3.23 is prob the deepest gear I will want to run,maybe 3.55. But on my last ride I didn't like the 3.91,the bad out weighted the good with those gears for me, on the street.

When I asked about a basicly stock 383 magnum build with just a boost in compression and aluminum heads, the response was you wont get any real measurable gain in power with that combo. So I moved on to maybe the 6.1.

What do you think a 6.1 with the FI but a 727 looks like vs a 440? Everything the same trans,gears weight, car, just the 440 vs the 6.1 both stock engines. Do you think the 440's torque just beats the 6.1 hp advantage?

I cant recall the torque curve on the 6.1 but i think its comparable to the 440 so the 6.q should pull ahead even behind a 727. Its alot more cost putting the 6.1 in the car and will still be slower then most cars on the street. The link to russ's website is really the route you want to go based on what you want out of the car with 3.23s, a mild sounding, stock appearing engine. He runs low 11s through exhaust manifolds and 3.23s, drives it something like 50 miles to the track and back, and cruises it everywhere. Its turn key reliable. Has a mild cam so its not hard on the valvetrain, and is not really all that hard to duplicate. His is a 505 if i recall, so you could do the 496 or 470 cube version and be running high 11s or low 12s in a mild mannered cruiser with stump pulling torque off idle.

See we can all get alone. 
I just asked what I thought was honest questions and wanted honest answers. I didn't want to get my balls busted or talked down to because I would not let that happen in real life if I was face to face with someone. Maybe I read something wrong and just got bent out of shape, regardless, I feel much better now, not only did I learn something HUGELY useful, I got to have a great conversation about Mopar engines with someone that has some experience that I do not. That's great cause that's why I post here. To learn stuff,maybe teach stuff and to enjoy our cars.

So now that you know what I want out of my 69 build and you have a new hemi so you known how quick they are, your advice is that my best bet as a broke dude trying to get the most bang for the buck is that stroker that  RUSS has. That sounds good.
I would still like to do a little homework on the 6.1,I have saw a few kits to turn the 6.1 into a 7.0(426) that looks like a bad ass setup. Thanks for the advice.

Mike DC

 
The modern Hemi is a very efficient & well designed engine but it's a small block.  The 5.7L is 350 inches.  The 6.1L is like 372 inches.  At stock displacements it won't come near the low-RPM torque of a 440.


Bad B-rad

Oh no doubt about it. I agree 100% And in a street engine where torque is almost always king, can the 6.1's HP advantage overcome the big blocks torque?????
And If I can build a 6.1 stroked to 426 for about the same price as a 383/440 stroker that c00nhunterjoe suggested, that would be really something cool.

G-man

Anyone like to see proof of... OOOO My apologies, this was the engine post. Ahem.

I don't see how anyone can say a stock 383 is fun to drive.

Those things are slow like nothing else. Hell, a 4-Cyl car feels just as fast these days.

And fuel economy... it is one of those things I been chasing, power and fuel efficiency. Only gonna get that from a turbo set up and then you are talking a 20,000+ installation to 'save on fuel' which with the km you drive will never be saved.

Unfortunately, if you want power, quick, and efficient... Go buy a nissan skyline. No charger is gonna touch it, fuel efficient and corners better than most things and doesn't cost through the roof to buy (fix/restore bla bla).

Kern Dog


1974dodgecharger

Coonhunter is right for a lot of things....everyone wants their cake and eat it too with a old big block that cant compete with modern cars its the truth.  I mean compete as in have their cake and eat it too...

A 383 can make some nice HP in the 500HP with a 10 to 1 I know because I had one, but I felt it was maxed out or near the max vs a 440.  Get a G3 HEMI if you want power and MPG and reliability etc....

500Jon

Good thread Brad!

Comparing a 60's Mopar with a 2017 Muscle car is like comparing a Model 'T' against a 62 max wedge car, it ain't relevant.
Fun is all about drivability with good fuel consumption and a good look in a shopfront window as you drive past!
Gone are the days of Maxxed-out Muscle and a new era of comfort with performance is required.

Is that achievable with a 50 year old Mopar?
Yes, but at what price???

I've met many hard-nosed Mopar guys say they get much more fun outta their NEW Challenger or dare I say it Camaro... :slap:
There's plenty of busted new Chargers and Challengers looking for a rebody with old Mopar tin.

So back to the REAL QUESTION, what is best for you Brad?
Big cars need big engines, but I know a lot of guys with 318 B-bods that go to every show, park next to the 440 cars and never complain about MPG... :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:

I would say a fuel injected 318 or 360 would be the best of both Worlds.

Anything over a 4-inch bore is proven to be INEFFICIENT, that's the real science of 100 year old GAS guzzlers... :-\

That's why the Viper V10 is designed with 318 geometry.
IF A JOB's WORTH DOING, ITS WORTH DOING WELL, RIP DAD.
4-SPEED, 1969 Charger-500 is the most Coolio car in the World!

Bad B-rad

Quote from: 500Jon on January 23, 2017, 05:56:07 AM
Good thread Brad!

Comparing a 60's Mopar with a 2017 Muscle car is like comparing a Model 'T' against a 62 max wedge car, it ain't relevant.
Fun is all about drivability with good fuel consumption and a good look in a shopfront window as you drive past!
Gone are the days of Maxxed-out Muscle and a new era of comfort with performance is required.

Is that achievable with a 50 year old Mopar?
Yes, but at what price???

I've met many hard-nosed Mopar guys say they get much more fun outta their NEW Challenger or dare I say it Camaro... :slap:
There's plenty of busted new Chargers and Challengers looking for a rebody with old Mopar tin.

So back to the REAL QUESTION, what is best for you Brad?
Big cars need big engines, but I know a lot of guys with 318 B-bods that go to every show, park next to the 440 cars and never complain about MPG... :smilielol: :smilielol: :smilielol:

I would say a fuel injected 318 or 360 would be the best of both Worlds.

Anything over a 4-inch bore is proven to be INEFFICIENT, that's the real science of 100 year old GAS guzzlers... :-\

That's why the Viper V10 is designed with 318 geometry.


You are correct on many points. On a 73 Dodge Challenger I built I used a 5.9 Magnum engine from a 2001 Dodge Ram 3500 van. I used the 46re auto trans also. And with that set up I could have 4.10 rear gears and when trans was in OD it was like 3.07 or something, and that was a great set up,for me with that projet. It did what I wanted it to do. It did not have a ton of power but ran very good and fun to drive.
Now on this 69 I want something different and I have not figured it out just yet so I am trying to get peoples advice and learn from their rear world experience.
A 1969 engine(that was designed in the 50's) vs a 2016 engine are worlds apart, no doubt. But sometimes you CAN have best of both worlds, and sometimes you can not.

I really have to look into c00nhunterjoe's suggested  stroker, because that maybe just what I am after. I had no idea that stroker kits were so much lighter now. I was under the idea that if I stroked out my 383 that it would no doubt put out a ton more power,but it would just take forever to "pick up steam" so to speak. I was wrong.
But before I go ordering the kit up, I would like to explore a few other options or ideas. One being the 6.1 Hemi in its stock form and then maybe with a 426 stroker kit.
I think that stroking the 383 may end up making the best car for me,with the amount of off idle torque it will have and the cost to do it and that I could have the car LOOK stock,even using the stock exhaust manifolds.
Ultimately I am after what most all of us want, our Chargers to be the best they can be.
As far as fitting the auto transmission that is behind the current Chargers and Challengers,besides the cost, I think it requires cutting up the torsion bar/crossmember and lots of mods to the tunnel. I do not know that as fact but I think that is what must be done for it to fit. And although I have no doubt I could cut it out and make it stronger by plating/boxing/bracing it what ever. For me, on this 69 Charger. I do not want to cut up and modify any major parts like that. Just for me anyway.

darbgnik

I'm nowhere near the engine expert as some members on here, but I honestly believe your limiting factor in your original post is the 727. Just not enough gears, and too much spread between. The newer muscle are hilarious to drive. My girlfriends new SRT8 Grand Cherokee is almost into 3rd gear by the time we're through an intersection, because it's an 8 speed. That 6.4 in there never revs out unless you hold it completely to the floor boards. Do I think you need an 8 speed to be quick and efficient? No. Six speeds? No. I think 5 is sufficient, and 6 speed plus autos, are mostly driven by fuel economy.

I think a 4 speed auto could get you close, as long as there is a big jump from 3rd to 4th. The key to a nice jump off the line is a low 1st gear, and keeping that jump requires the next two shifts to land the engine right back into it's powerband, so the ratios need to be reasonably closely spaced. Obviously, with a ridiculous 700hp monster motor all you need is 2 gears and a slippery torque converter.... but now we're not talking about cruisers anymore.

My 70 came with 4.10s behind the 727, which makes the stomp off the line reasonably entertaining, but anything over 50 mph painful, so not a cruiser. I have a 3.55 center section I'm going to throw in, in the spring to try how it feels, but I honestly feel what I'm looking for would be best solved with a 4 speed. Sadly, the easiest bolt in, no cutting, 4 speed auto is the GM 4L60 that SilverSport sells. If memory serves me correctly, they have a nice, low, first gear. And the lock up torque converter in OD is what nets you the most fuel economy.

Out old 727 trannys are stout, but efficient they are not.
Brad

1970 Charger 500. Born a 318, AC, console auto, now 440/727
Build thread:  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,127291.0.html

c00nhunterjoe

You can buy low gearsets for the 727

darbgnik

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on January 23, 2017, 03:45:32 PM
You can buy low gearsets for the 727
This is true! But then wouldn't it miss the mark on the cruising/fuel economy part of his equation?
Brad

1970 Charger 500. Born a 318, AC, console auto, now 440/727
Build thread:  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,127291.0.html

Mike DC

  
No, it's just the first two gears being lowered.  The top gear is still 1:1 so the steady cruising RPM isn't changed.

It mimics the ratios of the smaller 999/A500 T-flites from the 1980s-90s.




With the automatic overdrive options being so troubled with crossmember cutting, big prices, GM trannys, etc . . . I'm kind of surprised that lowering the 727's first two gears isn't a more popular mod.  Or you could combine an A518 overdrive + lowered first two gears, for a really wide spread.  

BSB67

Quote from: G-man on January 23, 2017, 01:24:15 AM

I don't see how anyone can say a stock 383 is fun to drive.


:iagree:

Probably the least torque producing engine of this size ever, all else being equal.

500" NA, Eddy head, pump gas, exhaust manifold with 2 1/2 exhaust with tailpipes
4150 lbs with driver, 3.23 gear, stock converter
11.68 @ 120.2 mph

Mike DC

  
The factory rating was 425 lbs of torque from 383 inches, at 3000-something RPM.  How is that a small figure for the size?   :shruggy:

darbgnik

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on January 23, 2017, 04:50:34 PM
 
No, it's just the first two gears being lowered.  The top gear is still 1:1 so the steady cruising RPM isn't changed.

It mimics the ratios of the smaller 999/A500 T-flites from the 1980s-90s.

Learn something new every day! Thanks.

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on January 23, 2017, 04:50:34 PM
With the automatic overdrive options being so troubled with crossmember cutting, big prices, GM trannys, etc . . . I'm kind of surprised that lowering the 727's first two gears isn't a more popular mod.  Or you could combine an A518 overdrive + lowered first two gears, for a really wide spread.  


But doesn't the 518 still require cutting in a gen 2? Then you'd need an adapter. And there would only be manual control of the lock up function right?
Brad

1970 Charger 500. Born a 318, AC, console auto, now 440/727
Build thread:  http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,127291.0.html

BSB67

Quote from: Mike DC (formerly miked) on January 23, 2017, 08:07:56 PM
 
The factory rating was...........

And I have some property.....I'd like to sell you.

500" NA, Eddy head, pump gas, exhaust manifold with 2 1/2 exhaust with tailpipes
4150 lbs with driver, 3.23 gear, stock converter
11.68 @ 120.2 mph

birdsandbees

True dat..

That said. I shoe polished "13.80/2" most Sundays in 79/80/81 on my windshield and ran a fairly consistent 13.84/5 @ 100/102 MPH with my 'Bee.

Stock 383 magnum, 750 Holley, 4 gear, shit Tornado tires and 2.94 rear end gears. Just rev and launch as it could barely spin with that rear end and then just hold it to the floor and slam gears.. all the way to 3rd!  :lol: Went through a good number of rear joint retainer clips.
1970 'Bird RM23UOA170163
1969 'Bee WM21H9A230241
1969 Dart Swinger LM23P9B190885
1967 Plymouth Barracuda Formula S
1966 Plymouth Satellite HP2 - 9941 original miles
1964 Dodge 440 62422504487

BSB67

Nice.  Those would probably be the best numbers I've seen posted by a stock 383 car.  In the late 70's me and my friends were in the high 14 to low 15 at about 89 to 92 mph.  I'm pretty sure Lew got his in the low 13's but was pretty far from stock by that point.

500" NA, Eddy head, pump gas, exhaust manifold with 2 1/2 exhaust with tailpipes
4150 lbs with driver, 3.23 gear, stock converter
11.68 @ 120.2 mph

birdsandbees

The engine was rebuilt in 1978.. might have got a cam but I don't remember for sure. Other than that it's definitely stock. Somewhere I still have a time card. Thought it was in the glove box but it's not.. must be in my file folder for the car somewhere. Should dig it out and look for it.

Never mattered anyhow.. there was always two lads with Mom's Rambler station wagon... slant 6 / auto and I think they had about 28 seconds in the windshield. Never failed, they won the bracket money ever week! Wait 'till green. .mash it and go while the chaser sat at the lights for 14+ seconds waiting to launch..  :brickwall: Track in Luskville QC is about 200' ASL.
1970 'Bird RM23UOA170163
1969 'Bee WM21H9A230241
1969 Dart Swinger LM23P9B190885
1967 Plymouth Barracuda Formula S
1966 Plymouth Satellite HP2 - 9941 original miles
1964 Dodge 440 62422504487

BSB67

Did it still have the small factory AVS carb on the factory cast iron intake and exhaust manifolds.  Not too many folks were rebuilding motors and putting all the original factory parts back on.

There is a thread on Moparts on how fast were factory 440s.  The few that are responding with what sounds like true stock 440 experiences seem to generally be in the 14 sec, mid 90s mph. This would not include the 6 bbl.  Mine went 14.6 at 94 mph.

500" NA, Eddy head, pump gas, exhaust manifold with 2 1/2 exhaust with tailpipes
4150 lbs with driver, 3.23 gear, stock converter
11.68 @ 120.2 mph

birdsandbees

Was running either a 650 or 750 holley.. can't remember (the old one is in a bin in the shop) and I did have Hedman headers at the time, short stacked at the rear end. Stock dual plane intake. Gotta find that time slip... and hope my memory is on paper and not in my head!!  :lol:
1970 'Bird RM23UOA170163
1969 'Bee WM21H9A230241
1969 Dart Swinger LM23P9B190885
1967 Plymouth Barracuda Formula S
1966 Plymouth Satellite HP2 - 9941 original miles
1964 Dodge 440 62422504487

Dino

Quote from: darbgnik on January 23, 2017, 08:25:24 PM
But doesn't the 518 still require cutting in a gen 2? Then you'd need an adapter. And there would only be manual control of the lock up function right?

You will need to put a dimple or two into the trans tunnel and you'll need to fabricate a rear crossmember. You'll also need to cut off the stock bellhousing and get another one. You can have automatic lock up function as well. Only $85, top of the page: https://transmissioncenter.net/shop/patc-727-to-518-46rh-conversion-kit-click-here-for-727-to-46rh-swap-wiring-diagram/

I'd have done this already but I'd rather spend the effort into installing a T-56. Way different budgets though.  ;)
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

PRH

Off topic a bit...... But.....

About 7 years ago or so I got to drive a very stock, 21,000 mile 69 RR with a 383, 4 speed, 3.23's.
It was kind of a mutt.
I had gone through the heads and installed hardened ex seats for unleaded fuel, and went through the carb.
The shop that was working on the car went through all the suspension, new tires, brakes, etc.

It was really a pretty nice car to drive...... Just not much of a power house.
Porter Racing Heads......Building and racing Mopars since 1980

Bad B-rad

Yes I think the 727 transmission makes it a bit harder to compete with cars with more gears,I would needa lot more HP to make up for the gear advantage. I am starting to look into the 518. As I think this may be the cheapest automatic OD transmission for the B-body,with out cutting stuff up.
Someone on this forum has a 518 in his 2nd gen and said he loves it, he gave me a ton of advice on making one fit and work in B-body, and it just required,as said above just some dimples in the tunnel some grinding on the trans itself and new lower crossmember and driveshaft.
I did a 46RE in E-body and a camero/firebird transmission mount bolted to the 46re and made making lower trans mount much simpler. I think I have the "prototype/first one" I made kicking around the shop. After I made the mount and made sure everything fit and worked as it should I re-made the mount using tubing and made it a little more professional looking vs the first one that looked a little more "redneck".

I think the GM based auto overdrive transmission kit costs about $5500-$6500. I hear it is very nice kit,I do not have that kind of money to slap down on one right now.

c00nhunterjoe

Quote from: Bad B-rad on January 24, 2017, 03:57:54 PM
Yes I think the 727 transmission makes it a bit harder to compete with cars with more gears,I would needa lot more HP to make up for the gear advantage. I am starting to look into the 518. As I think this may be the cheapest automatic OD transmission for the B-body,with out cutting stuff up.
Someone on this forum has a 518 in his 2nd gen and said he loves it, he gave me a ton of advice on making one fit and work in B-body, and it just required,as said above just some dimples in the tunnel some grinding on the trans itself and new lower crossmember and driveshaft.
I did a 46RE in E-body and a camero/firebird transmission mount bolted to the 46re and made making lower trans mount much simpler. I think I have the "prototype/first one" I made kicking around the shop. After I made the mount and made sure everything fit and worked as it should I re-made the mount using tubing and made it a little more professional looking vs the first one that looked a little more "redneck".

I think the GM based auto overdrive transmission kit costs about $5500-$6500. I hear it is very nice kit,I do not have that kind of money to slap down on one right now.


Putting a 518 in the car will not make it faster because of 4th gear. 4th is overdrive, you wont be going down the track in overdrive.

Troy

How much money do you want to spend? Pick an engine build first then decide how many RPMs you want to turn and that will pretty much decide your rear gear and transmission. A 727 is perfectly fine for a "street car". I drive 60/40 on the highway in my old cars. My current 70 Challenger has a 440 Six Pack, 4-speed, 3.23 rear gears, and 28" tall rear tires. The secondaries open at about 3,100 RPM (~72 mph) at which fuel mileage goes to hell. I had 3.91s installed a while back which made stoplight to stoplight runs a whole pile of fun but limited me to 61 mph on the highway. If I had an OD trans that would have worked well - but it wasn't worth the money or effort in my opinion. My previous 69 Charger had a 440 and 727 with 2.76 rear gears. For a highway car it was awesome - around town too. Acceleration was down but it didn't have any trouble spinning tires. I also have a 2015 Scat Pack Charger with the 6.4 and 8-speed trans. It's pretty awesome everywhere - but retrofitting that to one of my old cars would cost more than I paid for the car and the computer controls would make the wiring somewhat daunting (if it even fit!). There's rarely a "perfect" solution: build for stoplight drags and highway driving and mileage will suffer and vice versa. But honestly, the stock(ish) setup is fairly hard to beat with regards to simplicity and cost. Swinging the performance envelope one way or the other requires compromise.

I agree, all those extra gears aren't helping the drag times... depending on the engine!!! A decent 440 will have gobs of torque from somewhere near 1,800 RPM to about 5,500 RPM. Gearing isn't critical. Throw in a high winding small block that has a usable RPM range of 4,500-6,500 and you're gonna need gears! My 70 Mach 1 has a close ratio gearbox for pretty much exactly that reason.

Troy
Sarcasm detector, that's a real good invention.

Bad B-rad

No but putting in a 518 lets you run deeper gears(numerically higher) Like stated above 3.91 and he was limited to 61mph  on the highway to cruise.
I had 46RE in an E-body and  I had 4.10 or 4.11 gears and in OD it was turning the same rpm as if I had like 3.00 in the rear. So if you can run an OD trans you can run deeper gears and still cruise the highway at a nice rpm,less noise, less heat, less engine wear, less fuel burnt.
So the 518 wont make you faster but knowing that you can run 4.30 rear end gear and when your transmission shifts in to OD its turning 2300rpm same as maybe 3.07 rear gears that will make you faster,or more specifically you acceleration faster. 

Kern Dog

When I had the Gear Vendors in my Charger, I ran a 3.91 gear. In Overdrive, that 3.91 was reduced to 3.05. After I sold the Gear Vendors, I went back to a 3.55. Dropping down to anything close to a 3.05 for economy ( Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ) makes the car sluggish at low speeds.

Bad B-rad

Troy as you said about your Scat Pack Charger being awesome everywhere, I agree and imagine that type of performance in a 69 Charger(straight line acceleration not braking and cornering)That would be amazing correct?
How much power is the Scat Pack Charger putting out? I got stuck with a 2016 Charger R/T I could have gotten an SRT two years older, but my wife HAD TO HAVE the dam R/T that we got.
I also do not have the funds to marry the two car together in one super car.
I would be after a very similar 60/40 highway driving with my car. If I was building a 440 or maybe the 383 stroker then I maybe able to run 2.76, or 2.92 so highway rpm is nice, if the engine make enough power to be respectable.

Bad B-rad

Just my opinion, with any 66-74 Mopar car I have had with 727 transmission and 14 or 15 inch tire 3.55 or 3.23 is MY preferred gears if I intend to do lots of highway driving.
3.91 if I only plan on doing short highway trips.
That's just me. I know guys that run 4.10 and don't mind it. but I never enjoyed even the 3.91s on the highway. The speed limit here is 65mph, everybody is actually going 75+ and I never liked running my car at 75 I forget what I was turning for rpm but it just wasn't for me. Everyone is different, and can run what ever they want. I loved the power the 3.91 had but love that the 3.23 made the highway a nicer drive.
I think the new Chargers run like 2.87 or something. But have 8 gears(auto) to make up the difference.

birdsandbees

Why I love my 2.94's... the Provincial Police in the late 70's / early 80's not so much !!     :lol:
1970 'Bird RM23UOA170163
1969 'Bee WM21H9A230241
1969 Dart Swinger LM23P9B190885
1967 Plymouth Barracuda Formula S
1966 Plymouth Satellite HP2 - 9941 original miles
1964 Dodge 440 62422504487

Bad B-rad

Quote from: birdsandbees on January 24, 2017, 11:05:25 PM
Why I love my 2.94's... the Provincial Police in the late 70's / early 80's not so much !!     :lol:

That is great!!!!!!!! :iagree:

1968 Dodge Coronet 2.76,s speedo pinned at 120mph let off throttle 8 seconds before it came down off being pinned.Stupid things you do when you are young.I think I had 4 mis-matched semi bald tires to boot.
That was my first Mopar, the car that started it for me.

Kern Dog

The Wife and I ordered our 2015 Challenger R/T with the Super Track Pack. The car is the base model R/T with 372 HP and the 8 speed A/T. The Super Track Pack comes with a 3.09 ratio diff. That seems weak but the 8 speed auto 1st gear is 4.7 to 1. What ??? This means the car still pops out of the hole harder than a 727 car with 4.10 gears!

Bad B-rad

That is awesome!!! I ordered the SRT hood for my R/T.
I wonder if I can order the stuff to convert mine to the super track pack? When I pick up the hood(dealer painting it) I want to order up The Scat Pack Stage 1. It's a CAI, cat back exhaust and an ECU. The dealer said once I place my order they take down the vin and in about a week I get my new ECU. Oh and I also get two SCAT PACK 1 badges. I think the stickers alone give it 10 extra HP!!
I think the SRT hood has a functional scoop that dumps air in the CAI. I had a hard time deciding between Hell cat hoot or SRT.

But that's the point I have been trying to make about a modern auto with extra gears, its 3.09,but launches like a 727 with 4.10's and I bet at 65MPH its turning 1800rpm. By having extra gears you can change ratios around and make a lower HP car accelerate faster then a 3 speed auto with more HP.
So at the track you may not use all 8 speeds on your car but the ratios that you are using allow you out run a more power full car,and that is made possible by the extra gears. If only those transmissions would fit behind our cars, without major surgery to cross member and or transmission tunnel and not cost $6500 bucks or more. 
If our stock 383's and 440's had transmissions like your modern Charger they would be incredible, and you might be able to run them at LOWER rpm at cruising speed due to the low end torque the big blocks make.   

c00nhunterjoe

Those new 8 speeds are using at least 6 of those gears going down the track. Its a completely different animal to compare the new 8 speed to say a 518, 46re or 4l60.
   I think the cost to convert from a 727 to a 518 will be mkre expensive then building the big inch stroker.

Bad B-rad

Your may be right, I would guess the trans alone build for big block power is about 1500 bucks and then you have the whole bell housing issue. buy one and cut and weld or adapter plate how ever you decide to get it done.
If I build the stroker you suggested,  the torque it puts out I can run the 727 and 3.23 gears and daily drive it so no need for a 518,at least out of the gate. 
Do you have a link to that engine that Russ built that you recommended for me? Was it a kit built by a company or just something he assembled on his own? I would like to figure out what that is going to cost me to do. Must the block have any work done to make room for the extra stroke? I would imagine it may need some clearance, Clarence. In that case I would not be using my #'s block. So will any old "B" block work fine, or should I try and find a specific year 383 or 400? I have heard that certain year 400 blocks have thicker webbing/beefier bottom ends. would this be the best block to use?   

I Have a 5.7 hemi,and a 6.1 short block, so I wanted to explore a 6.1 Hemi vs a basicly stock 383.
If cost is the same,for engine build not for install into the car just to build the engine, between 383 stroker and a 6.1 to 7.0 stroker what would be the better engine?
Even if the question is asked just for the purpose of finding out the answer, or what most people think is the answer.
A modern Hemi stroked to 426CI with a carb or two(or even three with the mod man intake) and the coils hidden would be really cool. IMO


Troy

Quote from: Bad B-rad on January 24, 2017, 10:40:13 PM
Troy as you said about your Scat Pack Charger being awesome everywhere, I agree and imagine that type of performance in a 69 Charger(straight line acceleration not braking and cornering)That would be amazing correct?
How much power is the Scat Pack Charger putting out? I got stuck with a 2016 Charger R/T I could have gotten an SRT two years older, but my wife HAD TO HAVE the dam R/T that we got.
I also do not have the funds to marry the two car together in one super car.
I would be after a very similar 60/40 highway driving with my car. If I was building a 440 or maybe the 383 stroker then I maybe able to run 2.76, or 2.92 so highway rpm is nice, if the engine make enough power to be respectable.
It's possible to get close - although it ain't cheap! But the car is also still nearly 50 years old. One of my 68s now has a full Hotchkis suspension, OD 4-speed transmission, 4 wheel disc brakes, and (still in progress) a fuel injected 440. That's about $7k in upgrades not counting the engine itself. The Scat Pack has gigantic Brembo brakes, super sticky tires, traction control and ABS which would be great - but difficult - on the old one. The electronics (particularly transmission and traction control) are some of the things that makes the newer one run circles around the old one. My Scat Pack is 485 hp and 475 ft/lbs which is slightly more than the older ones. The SRT 392s have all the goodies mine has but with even bigger brakes, wheels/tires, and adjustable suspension (for about $10k more). With the trans in manual mode I literally can't shift out of 1st gear fast enough at full throttle and I bounce it off the rev limiter. The top 2 gears on the 8 speed are OD and the car is barely above idle at 65 mph.

Quote from: Bad B-rad on January 24, 2017, 10:54:34 PM
Just my opinion, with any 66-74 Mopar car I have had with 727 transmission and 14 or 15 inch tire 3.55 or 3.23 is MY preferred gears if I intend to do lots of highway driving.
3.91 if I only plan on doing short highway trips.
That's just me. I know guys that run 4.10 and don't mind it. but I never enjoyed even the 3.91s on the highway. The speed limit here is 65mph, everybody is actually going 75+ and I never liked running my car at 75 I forget what I was turning for rpm but it just wasn't for me. Everyone is different, and can run what ever they want. I loved the power the 3.91 had but love that the 3.23 made the highway a nicer drive.
I think the new Chargers run like 2.87 or something. But have 8 gears(auto) to make up the difference.
For "normal" driving with stock(ish) sized tires it's hard to beat a 3.23. There's a reason why almost everything from the factory had 2.76 or 3.23 gears. I mentioned that my car with 3.91s wouldn't cruise above 61 mph. The key there is "before the secondaries opened". It will certainly go faster if I were racing. Gas mileage dropped from 16+ to 10 mpg when cruising with the secondaries open (even a little). With the 3.23s I usually float around 70-75 mph. It's awesome to watch people do a double take in their mirrors when you're overtaking them on the highway in an old car. Most of the ones you see are in the right lane with the engine screaming because they just had to have racing gears.

Quote from: Bad B-rad on January 25, 2017, 02:14:35 AM
That is awesome!!! I ordered the SRT hood for my R/T.
I wonder if I can order the stuff to convert mine to the super track pack? When I pick up the hood(dealer painting it) I want to order up The Scat Pack Stage 1. It's a CAI, cat back exhaust and an ECU. The dealer said once I place my order they take down the vin and in about a week I get my new ECU. Oh and I also get two SCAT PACK 1 badges. I think the stickers alone give it 10 extra HP!!
I think the SRT hood has a functional scoop that dumps air in the CAI. I had a hard time deciding between Hell cat hoot or SRT.

But that's the point I have been trying to make about a modern auto with extra gears, its 3.09,but launches like a 727 with 4.10's and I bet at 65MPH its turning 1800rpm. By having extra gears you can change ratios around and make a lower HP car accelerate faster then a 3 speed auto with more HP.
So at the track you may not use all 8 speeds on your car but the ratios that you are using allow you out run a more power full car,and that is made possible by the extra gears. If only those transmissions would fit behind our cars, without major surgery to cross member and or transmission tunnel and not cost $6500 bucks or more. 
If our stock 383's and 440's had transmissions like your modern Charger they would be incredible, and you might be able to run them at LOWER rpm at cruising speed due to the low end torque the big blocks make.   
The SRT hoods are just an open scoop. They do not feed air to the intake. They do, it seems, ingest every bit of dust and water that's anywhere near the front of the car. Cleaning engine compartments is not my idea of fun.

Troy
Sarcasm detector, that's a real good invention.

Bad B-rad

In manual mode in my R/T you can launch in 2nd gear, I imagine that you have tried that already,and you have more power AND gear then me.(R/T vs Scat Pack)
So you must have the SRT hood judging from what you said. That sucks because when I ordered the hood they said it had a functional hood scoop, I guess they say a lot though don't they, maybe I should have gotten the Hell Cat hood, with the "heat extractors".
I kinda thought the middle raised scoop(SRT) got lost and didn't stand out as much with the heat vents on the Hell Cat hood.

I am not even going to try and improve on my 69's handling, to much more then going to an R/T or larger torsion bars(mine is a regular Charger w 383 so I have BB "T-bars" but not the R/T or improved handling ones) and R/T or the one step up Mopar leaf springs with polyurethane or polygraphite bushings,and adding rear sway bar,maybe larger front bar.
I also have the larger C-body tie rod ends with the solid steel firm feel adjusters. On my old 66 Charger I had the Firm Feel stage 3 box with the fast ratio pitman arm. I don't know what I am gonna do with my 69, may just leave it alone,or maybe that "Jeep" style smaller box I hear so much about, I have not done my homework on that one. But out of the gate I think I am just gonna leave it be.
Down the road, if I must, maybe tubular adjustable upper control arms and plated lower arms.
I also will look into the larger R/T front drums or go(if money permits) front disc, with Mopar parts, coping the factory disc/drum set up,nothing fancy or expensive. I like to drive the car through the curvy back roads I have here but I don't push it to the edge of safety or traction loss, I just push it to were it's fun and safe. So slightly better then stock is OK with me. It's the straight line performance that I want to make sure my 69 has, because I don't want mom in her minivan or punk ass kids in their 4 banger to embarrass me. I would also like to be able to line up vs brand "x" muscle cars old and modern and not have to go away with my tail between my legs.
So wanting to street drive the hell out of my 69, I think a stock looking 383 stroker is in my future.
 

Troy

I learned that I have launch control so now I don't bother! :P Set launch RPM, mash the pedal, release the brake, grin like a fool. There's almost no wheelspin - just acceleration.

The scoop is "functional" in that it's open. Typically, a "non-functional" scoop is just a scoop plopped onto a regular flat hood. I don't much care for the Hellcat hoods. The extractors are necessary - but not that great looking. The SRT front end is the primary reason I bought the car.

Before dissing the stock handling too much... this is a member's car. It does not have any crazy aftermarket suspension - mostly beefed up stock parts. It's also running a carb'd 440 (in these videos).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9xM-UM-vhw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euOtG-pzB48&t=15s

Troy
Sarcasm detector, that's a real good invention.