I need to get a new engine. Modern Hemi? or stick with the 440?

[Challenger340]

Oh boy... this one will get me in trouble, no matter, just my   take it as an opinion with no wars wanted.

As an Engine Builder with a Shop, my comments surrounding the legacy's Engines problems many experience, being the std 393/400/440 stuff, and poor running characteristics they see ? , would to tend to center around the extremely poor quality rebuilding/machining being applied to these older designs nowadays ?
It's like what's left out there for skills/knowledge/smarts these days in tradesmen is non-existent ?
Whatever happened to the smart/talented/knowledgable tradesmen of old on these Engines ? did they die off ? left ? or just plain retired ? I have no idea, but seems they are all gone ?

There is absolutely NO reason, a PROPERLY Machined/Built legacy Engine can not exhibit excellent power, driving, and running characteristics with EFI... or even without EFI and provide excellent service life trouble free.

IMO, the problem with the above being accomplished and success therein realized, is the poor quality/machining/parts going into the Engines during rebuilding.

We have built LOTS of pump gas 440's for Customers, "keep it simple stupid" builds at 500 to 550 HP, Hyd Flat Tappet Cams, with many 10's of thousands of trouble free miles, that run low 12's/high 11's and can literally STOMP the new HEMI's.
Anybody around southern Alberta wanting a "fun" challenge, pm me and I'll arrange a demonstration.
You are more than welcome to then question the Owner/Customer regarding mileages, etc., etc.... beers on us !

[Homerr]

...

The reasoning is solid, but factually i think youre overblowing (no pun intended) the reliability issues of the gen III hemis.

Think about it: just like with anything else, only the horror stories get the publicity - so youre more likely to hear about the 1 in 100 failures rather than the 99 /100 that dont have issues.

And FWIW, the basic engine design is from the DaimlerChrysler era...if anything FCA has addressed and improved on it.

Statistically there are also way many more Gen III motors out there on the road currently to be reported on than older B/RB motors.

[cbrestorations]

Oh boy... this one will get me in trouble, no matter, just my   take it as an opinion with no wars wanted.

As an Engine Builder with a Shop, my comments surrounding the legacy's Engines problems many experience, being the std 393/400/440 stuff, and poor running characteristics they see ? , would to tend to center around the extremely poor quality rebuilding/machining being applied to these older designs nowadays ?
It's like what's left out there for skills/knowledge/smarts these days in tradesmen is non-existent ?
Whatever happened to the smart/talented/knowledgable tradesmen of old on these Engines ? did they die off ? left ? or just plain retired ? I have no idea, but seems they are all gone ?

There is absolutely NO reason, a PROPERLY Machined/Built legacy Engine can not exhibit excellent power, driving, and running characteristics with EFI... or even without EFI and provide excellent service life trouble free.

IMO, the problem with the above being accomplished and success therein realized, is the poor quality/machining/parts going into the Engines during rebuilding.

We have built LOTS of pump gas 440's for Customers, "keep it simple stupid" builds at 500 to 550 HP, Hyd Flat Tappet Cams, with many 10's of thousands of trouble free miles, that run low 12's/high 11's and can literally STOMP the new HEMI's.
Anybody around southern Alberta wanting a "fun" challenge, pm me and I'll arrange a demonstration.
You are more than welcome to then question the Owner/Customer regarding mileages, etc., etc.... beers on us !

all an engine is...is an air pump, the more in and the more out equals more power. the 6.1 heads blow away the 440 heads and most aftermarket aluminum heads for the 440. just a far better design hands down and im sure you would agree. that being said the potential is there to make more power.  if 500hp is the goal the 6.1 can do that with just a cam swap. the 440 is going to need a big cam, intake and ported heads, granted those are not expensive items and the initial cost of the 440 is much cheaper than a 6.1 to start. the internals of the 6.1 are much better than a stock 440 aswell and will hold more power if big power was the goal.  i guess down to the wire...if 10k was the budget both engines could make about the same power but with a 6.1, you will have alot better mpg, better handling, efi and an A518 would bolt right up to it vs the expensive adapters that a RB engine require.

[Ponch ®]

Oh boy... this one will get me in trouble, no matter, just my   take it as an opinion with no wars wanted.

As an Engine Builder with a Shop, my comments surrounding the legacy's Engines problems many experience, being the std 393/400/440 stuff, and poor running characteristics they see ? , would to tend to center around the extremely poor quality rebuilding/machining being applied to these older designs nowadays ?
It's like what's left out there for skills/knowledge/smarts these days in tradesmen is non-existent ?
Whatever happened to the smart/talented/knowledgable tradesmen of old on these Engines ? did they die off ? left ? or just plain retired ? I have no idea, but seems they are all gone ?

There is absolutely NO reason, a PROPERLY Machined/Built legacy Engine can not exhibit excellent power, driving, and running characteristics with EFI... or even without EFI and provide excellent service life trouble free.

IMO, the problem with the above being accomplished and success therein realized, is the poor quality/machining/parts going into the Engines during rebuilding.

We have built LOTS of pump gas 440's for Customers, "keep it simple stupid" builds at 500 to 550 HP, Hyd Flat Tappet Cams, with many 10's of thousands of trouble free miles, that run low 12's/high 11's and can literally STOMP the new HEMI's.
Anybody around southern Alberta wanting a "fun" challenge, pm me and I'll arrange a demonstration.
You are more than welcome to then question the Owner/Customer regarding mileages, etc., etc.... beers on us !

So basically you either take your chances on FCAs engineering or Billy Bob's Machine Shop.

[Derwud]

Oh boy... this one will get me in trouble, no matter, just my   take it as an opinion with no wars wanted.

As an Engine Builder with a Shop, my comments surrounding the legacy's Engines problems many experience, being the std 393/400/440 stuff, and poor running characteristics they see ? , would to tend to center around the extremely poor quality rebuilding/machining being applied to these older designs nowadays ?
It's like what's left out there for skills/knowledge/smarts these days in tradesmen is non-existent ?
Whatever happened to the smart/talented/knowledgable tradesmen of old on these Engines ? did they die off ? left ? or just plain retired ? I have no idea, but seems they are all gone ?

There is absolutely NO reason, a PROPERLY Machined/Built legacy Engine can not exhibit excellent power, driving, and running characteristics with EFI... or even without EFI and provide excellent service life trouble free.

IMO, the problem with the above being accomplished and success therein realized, is the poor quality/machining/parts going into the Engines during rebuilding.

We have built LOTS of pump gas 440's for Customers, "keep it simple stupid" builds at 500 to 550 HP, Hyd Flat Tappet Cams, with many 10's of thousands of trouble free miles, that run low 12's/high 11's and can literally STOMP the new HEMI's.
Anybody around southern Alberta wanting a "fun" challenge, pm me and I'll arrange a demonstration.
You are more than welcome to then question the Owner/Customer regarding mileages, etc., etc.... beers on us !

So basically you either take your chances on FCAs engineering or Billy Bob's Machine Shop.

My money is on Billy Bob!!!

[Mike DC]

all an engine is...is an air pump, the more in and the more out equals more power. the 6.1 heads blow away the 440 heads and most aftermarket aluminum heads for the 440. just a far better design hands down and im sure you would agree. that being said the potential is there to make more power.  if 500hp is the goal the 6.1 can do that with just a cam swap. the 440 is going to need a big cam, intake and ported heads, granted those are not expensive items and the initial cost of the 440 is much cheaper than a 6.1 to start. the internals of the 6.1 are much better than a stock 440 aswell and will hold more power if big power was the goal.  i guess down to the wire...if 10k was the budget both engines could make about the same power but with a 6.1, you will have alot better mpg, better handling, efi and an A518 would bolt right up to it vs the expensive adapters that a RB engine require.

Is this about track numbers, or fun-to-drive?  

I'd rather have fun-to-drive.  IMO that means low/midrage torque.  That means displacement.    


As for the handling issue - Most 440s built to make much power these days are getting aluminum heads & intake & exhaust headers.  The weight advantage of the newer motor will not be that much.  The block + crank weight difference only amounts to about 60 lbs.  The new Hemi's heads & valvetrain are probably heavier than aluminum B/RB wedge stuff.

 

[2Gunz]

I just want to jump in and drive.   Dont care about track numbers.

But heres the interesting part I think If I got a stock new Hemi I could just be happy with it. 375 Hp and it is what it is.

But the build your own or crate motor turns into never enough.  400 Hp or 900 hp?   How long before I need a dana 60?  Need the bigger trans.
Need to stiffen the body, need better brakes, need bigger tires.  It never ends because ya can.


I think Challenger340 makes some very good points.  Enough that Im looking at 440 Crate motors again.

What transmission and EFI would you use for a 550hp 440?

[chargerbr549]

Another option on the transmission might be to keep the 727 and put a low gear set in it from A&A transmissions and goto a 2.76 rear axle ratio with around 28 in tall tires to help keep the rpms down on the highway. It's not optimum but it might do a pretty good job unless you want to do some reshaping of the trans tunnel depending on which overdrive option you were considering.

[Laowho]

I just want to jump in and drive.   Dont care about track numbers.



What transmission and EFI would you use for a 550hp 440?

We're only 435hp/520tq w/ our mild 440 (223/228 Hughes cam), 906 heads, TTI headers, Wedge intake, 780 Quick Fuel carb, electronic ignition, all very affordable for strictly street use and dyno-tuned it's great. But we're goin w/ the Fitech EFI/Tanks Inc upgrade (about $500 total and needs new tank/sending unit anyhoo), and a Passon 4-speed OD (no tunnel mods) to optimize our 3.23 rear and 29" tires for long road trips.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,120608.0.html

Lookin forward to added throttle response and auto-tune, maybe some mileage gain, and to the full drivin experience of manual. It'll give us 80 mph at about 2300rpm.

[Troy]

Well, again........ grab a dime-a-dozen 383, throw some heads on it, and beat the heck out of it! If you'd be happy with a 375 horse small block you can get there with a Magnum or 383/400 for a LOT less than a Hemi. If the reliability and lower maintenance of EFI is important to you (it is to me!) then spend a little extra and retrofit it (technically the Magnums are already EFI but you're mostly stuck with the factory PCM). I have a friend running a 408 in his truck on the stock box though and it's rather impressive.

A point about the modern Hemi heads - yes they flow great! But you're still down 60-90 cubes from a 440. The only way to maximize that air is through RPM. My Mach 1 has a 351 Cleveland with the 4V heads and to use all the air available it needs to spin about 7,000 RPM. How often am I likely to do that on the street? A similar amount of torque from a 440 will be at 1/3rd of that RPM. It's also fairly east to bore/stroke a 440 too. There's a really nice 512 build up in the dyno section that should have great manners and all the power you could ever need on the street. I'm not a big fan of people dropping 800 HP race engines in a street car. Most of the time they don't like running on the street and cause lots of problems and frustration. A mild build (say 500 hp) 440 stays pretty happy.

I suppose a lot of my recommendations boil down to this: don't take the car apart for an extended period of time!!! If you're struggling to want to drive it now imagine how you'll feel 13 months into a seemingly never-ending swap. In the past 5 years, of the 4 cars of mine that should qualify as drivable, I have been able to legitimately take one out for approximately a summer and a half. That's 18.5 missed summers out of 20! Mostly because I suffer from the while-I'm-in-here syndrome but also because I try to do things beyond my ability or budget - particularly if they aren't plug-n-play. I can swap a big block to a big block on a Saturday. Your capabilities may be much better than mine. I have purchased all but 3 of my classics as "projects in a box" so be very wary of your passion for the car! People lose interest and bail out fairly regularly.

The best option in my opinion (no matter which way to go) is to have the complete driveline ready to go before removing the driveline that's in the car. This will require a run test stand or something similar but will greatly reduce headaches (maybe not fitment issues) and downtime.

A note about fuel mileage: my 2105 Scat Pack Charger with the 8 speed (2 overdrives) hovers around 17 mpg. I've gotten 24-28 mpg on road trips. My 70 Challenger with 440 Six Pack, 4-speed, and 3.23 rear gears gets 10-12 mpg and has been as high as 17 on the way to Carlisle. I usually drive 70-80 mph on the highway so these numbers could be better if you're sensible. When I'm playing around on back roads or stoplight to stoplight they both get about the same (meaning you can watch the gauge drop). For a car you don't drive often, it would take years (and years) to offset the cost of a good EFI system and overdrive. The EFI and OD could make life better but I don't see it as a value comparison.

Troy

[cbrestorations]

all an engine is...is an air pump, the more in and the more out equals more power. the 6.1 heads blow away the 440 heads and most aftermarket aluminum heads for the 440. just a far better design hands down and im sure you would agree. that being said the potential is there to make more power.  if 500hp is the goal the 6.1 can do that with just a cam swap. the 440 is going to need a big cam, intake and ported heads, granted those are not expensive items and the initial cost of the 440 is much cheaper than a 6.1 to start. the internals of the 6.1 are much better than a stock 440 aswell and will hold more power if big power was the goal.  i guess down to the wire...if 10k was the budget both engines could make about the same power but with a 6.1, you will have alot better mpg, better handling, efi and an A518 would bolt right up to it vs the expensive adapters that a RB engine require.

Is this about track numbers, or fun-to-drive?  

I'd rather have fun-to-drive.  IMO that means low/midrage torque.  That means displacement.    


As for the handling issue - Most 440s built to make much power these days are getting aluminum heads & intake & exhaust headers.  The weight advantage of the newer motor will not be that much.  The block + crank weight difference only amounts to about 60 lbs.  The new Hemi's heads & valvetrain are probably heavier than aluminum B/RB wedge stuff.

 

fun to drive...the modern hemi's are more fun to me with the power band they have. sliding around spinning tire at 7,000rpm is cooler than 6,000rpm. plus you get more modern power steering, higher amp alternator and serpentine setup. the pistons and rods in a 6.1 are mch lighter than the jugs in a 440, the wrap up is much quicker which is more fun aswell. ive driven both a 440 with a mild cam and headers with 4.11 gears vs. just a 5.7 hemi with cam and headers with 3.91 gears. the 5.7 was way more fun, awesome mpg and would beat the 440 car. we got the 5.7 for $900, modified a stock harness to run the 5.7 paid $400 for the cam $700 for headers, $500 for the pcm flash and away it went. was literally in the car drivetrain wise about $3500 with fuel system, motor mounts, hoses and radiator with fans. heres the car im talking about. it was a simple setup

[Mike DC]

     
Troy makes good points about the mileage & EFI & OD issues. 

Overdrive and EFI will make you want to drive the car more.  It will have a quieter/easier time on the highway and you won't fill the tank as often.  Those things have value for enjoyment.  But the updates probably won't pay off financially.  The swap costs are too high and we don't rack up enough miles on these cars.

[nakita7]

Well, if you believe that technology evolves and that things generally get better, I'd go with the new. There's a reason that people don't swap out new engines with Flathead V-8's. 

[redmist]

So I know a guy who did this whole crazy EFI thing on a 440 a few years back and it is frickin' awesome!


If I could start over today, It would get a modern mill in the car.

[Kern Dog]

     
Troy makes good points about the mileage &  OD issues. 

Overdrive  will make you want to drive the car more.  It will have a quieter/easier time on the highway and you won't fill the tank as often.   But the updates probably won't pay off financially.  The swap costs are too high and we don't rack up enough miles on these cars.

This makes sense. I love my car but the cost to swap to any EFI or OD setup is certainly not cost effective in terms of the changes paying for themselves. Going into them, you'd almost have to focus on the improved driveability as the only realistic gain.

[G-man]

As others said...

The only reason you go EFI etc is because you want it to

A: Look different (custom)
B: Reliability

Fuel consumption/cost is irrelevant.

If you factor 10mpg difference between the 2, how many miles would you need to drive (or lets say how many gallons would you need to save) before you saw the 5000+ initial setup cost?

Realistically never unless you clock up 200,000 miles on your car, then it will pay for itself. Once those 40 years are gone, then you will start seeing a few $ saving... by the time it becomes worth it, you wont be around to worry about it.

So instead of throwing money upfront that could of bought you 40 years of fuel... decide what you want in terms of cool factor and reliability and spend on that aspect.

Personally....

Get a Ray Barton Hemi, alloy heads and block and EFI.  

[alfaitalia]

.....agreed ....and I think you would be VERY lucky to get a 10 mpg improvement JUST by fitting EFI. Im sure others will argue but I'm my experience its a smother, more tractable and easier to start hot/cold engine that is the result rather than a much more efficient one. Especially if you know how to set up a good set of carbs PROPERLY in the first place. Having said that I'm 99% certain I'm going EFI with mine....just because of ease of set up with the blower.

[Challenger340]

Oh boy... this one will get me in trouble, no matter, just my   take it as an opinion with no wars wanted.

As an Engine Builder with a Shop, my comments surrounding the legacy's Engines problems many experience, being the std 393/400/440 stuff, and poor running characteristics they see ? , would to tend to center around the extremely poor quality rebuilding/machining being applied to these older designs nowadays ?
It's like what's left out there for skills/knowledge/smarts these days in tradesmen is non-existent ?
Whatever happened to the smart/talented/knowledgable tradesmen of old on these Engines ? did they die off ? left ? or just plain retired ? I have no idea, but seems they are all gone ?

There is absolutely NO reason, a PROPERLY Machined/Built legacy Engine can not exhibit excellent power, driving, and running characteristics with EFI... or even without EFI and provide excellent service life trouble free.

IMO, the problem with the above being accomplished and success therein realized, is the poor quality/machining/parts going into the Engines during rebuilding.

We have built LOTS of pump gas 440's for Customers, "keep it simple stupid" builds at 500 to 550 HP, Hyd Flat Tappet Cams, with many 10's of thousands of trouble free miles, that run low 12's/high 11's and can literally STOMP the new HEMI's.
Anybody around southern Alberta wanting a "fun" challenge, pm me and I'll arrange a demonstration.
You are more than welcome to then question the Owner/Customer regarding mileages, etc., etc.... beers on us !

all an engine is...is an air pump, the more in and the more out equals more power. the 6.1 heads blow away the 440 heads and most aftermarket aluminum heads for the 440. 

Yep, it is an air pump.... but actually the new HEMI heads don't blow away anything ?
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-1210-inside-the-g3-hemi-cylinder-head/

* 5.7 stuff most commonly found for Engine swaps sits around 265 cfm

*5.7 Eagle HEMI Stuff goes 330 cfm

* The 6.1 SRT stuff goes about 320 cfm

Available entry level 440 Heads (Stealth, Eddy, Sidewinder, etc) all start around the same 265 cfm or better, most advertise 280-290 cfm OOTB
And anything more serious for the 440 ranges from 320 cfm to 400 CFM OOTB with the likes of TF240's all the way up with INDY EZ, 440-1 and CNC stuff.

Not saying the new HEMI's are not a good design, they are !
Just that if people can't work on, or find available competent skillsets/machining to work on the old 440's and make them run decent ?.... how in the heck are they going to access it when the time comes(and it will !),on their new HEMI ? 
Just keep swapping in still running junkyard Engines ?
   

[Challenger340]

all an engine is...is an air pump, the more in and the more out equals more power. the 6.1 heads blow away the 440 heads and most aftermarket aluminum heads for the 440. just a far better design hands down and im sure you would agree. that being said the potential is there to make more power.  if 500hp is the goal the 6.1 can do that with just a cam swap. the 440 is going to need a big cam, intake and ported heads, granted those are not expensive items and the initial cost of the 440 is much cheaper than a 6.1 to start. the internals of the 6.1 are much better than a stock 440 aswell and will hold more power if big power was the goal.  i guess down to the wire...if 10k was the budget both engines could make about the same power but with a 6.1, you will have alot better mpg, better handling, efi and an A518 would bolt right up to it vs the expensive adapters that a RB engine require.

Is this about track numbers, or fun-to-drive?  

I'd rather have fun-to-drive.  IMO that means low/midrage torque.  That means displacement.    


As for the handling issue - Most 440s built to make much power these days are getting aluminum heads & intake & exhaust headers.  The weight advantage of the newer motor will not be that much.  The block + crank weight difference only amounts to about 60 lbs.  The new Hemi's heads & valvetrain are probably heavier than aluminum B/RB wedge stuff.

 

fun to drive...the modern hemi's are more fun to me with the power band they have. sliding around spinning tire at 7,000rpm is cooler than 6,000rpm. plus you get more modern power steering, higher amp alternator and serpentine setup. the pistons and rods in a 6.1 are mch lighter than the jugs in a 440, the wrap up is much quicker which is more fun aswell. ive driven both a 440 with a mild cam and headers with 4.11 gears vs. just a 5.7 hemi with cam and headers with 3.91 gears. the 5.7 was way more fun, awesome mpg and would beat the 440 car. we got the 5.7 for $900, modified a stock harness to run the 5.7 paid $400 for the cam $700 for headers, $500 for the pcm flash and away it went. was literally in the car drivetrain wise about $3500 with fuel system, motor mounts, hoses and radiator with fans. heres the car im talking about. it was a simple setup

Very nice swap job 
Has it ever been to the track and collected a timeslip ?
 

[fizz]

Just finished a 493 stroker/ over drive auto trans car and got 2800 miles on it last fall. I used a silver sport trans and couldn't be happier, pretty much a bolt in and a very complete kit, about 2600 rpm at interstate speed with 391 gears. Engine, pick the right builder the first time( I didn't). 505 hp and 550 tq at rear wheels is damn fun to drive

[2Gunz]

Never heard of the silver sport till now.

Thanks for the info!

Link for others reference....

https://shiftsst.com/articles/cat/mopar/post/charger-satellite-coronet-gtx-super-bee-1966-1970/

[Offblue]

Well from what i plan on doing down the road, (having a 440 and 727 trans) is adding a overdrive unit (Gear Vendor) and FiTech EFI as well. Simply for the driving pleasure, just a lot of highway driving to the cottage and back. but thats personally me.

[cbrestorations]

Well from what i plan on doing down the road, (having a 440 and 727 trans) is adding a overdrive unit (Gear Vendor) and FiTech EFI as well. Simply for the driving pleasure, just a lot of highway driving to the cottage and back. but thats personally me.

you should just do away with the 727 and go with 518 trans, you will have a better overdrive gear and a lock up converter.

[Offblue]

Well from what i plan on doing down the road, (having a 440 and 727 trans) is adding a overdrive unit (Gear Vendor) and FiTech EFI as well. Simply for the driving pleasure, just a lot of highway driving to the cottage and back. but thats personally me.

you should just do away with the 727 and go with 518 trans, you will have a better overdrive gear and a lock up converter.

I personally find them hard to find ... maybe it's just the way i'm searching.

[Mike DC]

I personally find them hard to find ... maybe it's just the way i'm searching.

Buy a whole early '90s Dakota with a V8.  Take the trans, sell the motor separately, and sell the body for scrap.