I need to get a new engine. Modern Hemi? or stick with the 440?

[Ponch ®]

Most of the reliability issues were with the early (03-04) gen III hemis. The 05-08 and 09+ "eagle" versions are far more reliable. Most of the issues w  valve seat failures are due to overheating and poor maintenance.

Im on my 3rd 5.7 car (08 Charger, 10 Challenger, 15 Challenger). Ran the first two to almost 100k miles w no issues whatsoever.

Sure, you could get the odd one that has issues...but in my years on classic and modern mopar forums ive seen way, way more horror stories about old school engine builds gone wrong than modern hemi problems.

There are a lot of good reasons to go w/ an old school motor (simple,originality, the cool factor, cost, etc) but saying that theyre better/more reliable is like saying that you prefer a turn dial phone because youve heard that iphones sometimes crash...

[cbrestorations]

modern hemi's go 200k miles reliably. the older 5.7 heads had some issues with dropping valve seats but it was 1 out of 100 heads maybe. if you want a badass cruiser, put a stock 6.1/ 6.4 hemi in it with a 76mm turbo it will get 20 mpg, make 700hp and spool instantly. can a 440 do that...nope. ive even done a 5.7 truck engine in a 70 that only had a mild cam and headers done that would walk all over a 440 with cam and headers. its just old technology vs. new. a stock 5.7 head flows almost 100cfm more than a 906 440 head. on the other side of the coin though...if you turbo a mild 440 it would be a torque beast and ok mileage with an overdrive trans. wont handle as nice but cheaper to have a running driving car.

[JR]

I hear you loud and clear on the modern engineering Ponch.

I'm normally the first guy in the room to advocate upgrading to modern technology, but (at the risk of sounding like a dinosaur here) but the cost of swapping all the necessary components to go along with it, THEN take my chances with modern Chrysler engineering/reliability, scares me away in this case.

I've still seen plenty of reports of post 2009 5.7s, and 6.1s dropping valve seats. The risk of spontaneous, sudden failure on them keeps me away.

Maybe the aftermarket has a bulletproof solution, I don't know.

Just to be clear, I love modern engineering.

I don't trust FCA's engineering.

[Brass]

If I go with a 440 are there any other options than
a 518 or gear vendors? 

The gear vender option seems blah

Maybe Silver Sport Transmissions

[Mike DC]

  
Somebody (Art Carr?) makes a tranny & bellhousing kit to fit a GM 200R4.  Good low 1st gear, decent overdrive, and low parasitic drag.  No cutting the car (I think).

It's not known as a particularly strong tranny in stock form.  But any GM part ends up durable after they shove enough aftermarket parts into it.

[2Gunz]

Nice Find Mike.  Thank you!

adding links for others interested.

It is Art Carr   - http://www.cpttransmission.com/2004R_trans.htm

Also another company that reportedly does an excellent job.   http://www.ckperformance.com/List/2004R/2004R-Transmissions

[1974dodgecharger]

I hear you loud and clear on the modern engineering Ponch.

I'm normally the first guy in the room to advocate upgrading to modern technology, but (at the risk of sounding like a dinosaur here) but the cost of swapping all the necessary components to go along with it, THEN take my chances with modern Chrysler engineering/reliability, scares me away in this case.

I've still seen plenty of reports of post 2009 5.7s, and 6.1s dropping valve seats. The risk of spontaneous, sudden failure on them keeps me away.

Maybe the aftermarket has a bulletproof solution, I don't know.

Just to be clear, I love modern engineering.

I don't trust FCA's engineering.

and a 440 does not have its issues?  How many issues do we find each day where somewhere reports my old 318, 340, 360, to 440 say, 'my engine wont turn over' etc...

[cdr]

I hear you loud and clear on the modern engineering Ponch.

I'm normally the first guy in the room to advocate upgrading to modern technology, but (at the risk of sounding like a dinosaur here) but the cost of swapping all the necessary components to go along with it, THEN take my chances with modern Chrysler engineering/reliability, scares me away in this case.

I've still seen plenty of reports of post 2009 5.7s, and 6.1s dropping valve seats. The risk of spontaneous, sudden failure on them keeps me away.

Maybe the aftermarket has a bulletproof solution, I don't know.

Just to be clear, I love modern engineering.

I don't trust FCA's engineering.

easy enough to pull the heads & fix the potential problem.

[JR]

and a 440 does not have its issues?  How many issues do we find each day where somewhere reports my old 318, 340, 360, to 440 say, 'my engine wont turn over' etc.

Sigh, I hate to sound like the stubborn dinosaur stuck in the past here, as I'm a pro touring guy.
(My car has EFI, and a ton of other updates.)

I know the Hemi will smoke the RB by any measure. No question. And as a cornering/handling guy, I LOVE the idea of the swap.

But, my opinion is I don't trust FCA's engineering enough to convert a 440 car to a modern Hemi.

Too many random, unpredictable engine failures. I don't trust those engines enough to spend the money.

FCA's quality/reliability record is utter crap, and I'm not interested in tearing down a fairly new 5.7 or 6.1 right off the bat to repair engineering defects that should never have happened.

But, admittedly, I'm not a "Mopar or No Car" fanatic, so I'm not particularly vested in being a guinea pig working out the kinks in gen 3 engine failures on my dime.

Not knocking you guys that have done it, just not for me.

That said, if I were starting from total scratch, and didn't have all the big block accessories on hand, then maybe I could see the appeal.

You could probably tear into the engine and address the issues before you installed it, but, I can't fathom why go through the trouble to correct an engine that was obviously cheaply engineered to start with.

The LS guys have it too easy.

[Derwud]

and a 440 does not have its issues?  How many issues do we find each day where somewhere reports my old 318, 340, 360, to 440 say, 'my engine wont turn over' etc.

Sigh, I hate to sound like the stubborn dinosaur stuck in the past here, as I'm a pro touring guy.
(My car has EFI, and a ton of other updates.)

I know the Hemi will smoke the RB by any measure. No question. And as a cornering/handling guy, I LOVE the idea of the swap.

But, my opinion is I don't trust FCA's engineering enough to convert a 440 car to a modern Hemi.

Too many random, unpredictable engine failures. I don't trust those engines enough to spend the money.

FCA's quality/reliability record is utter crap, and I'm not interested in tearing down a fairly new 5.7 or 6.1 right off the bat to repair engineering defects that should never have happened.

But, admittedly, I'm not a "Mopar or No Car" fanatic, so I'm not particularly vested in being a guinea pig working out the kinks in gen 3 engine failures on my dime.

Not knocking you guys that have done it, just not for me.

That said, if I were starting from total scratch, and didn't have all the big block accessories on hand, then maybe I could see the appeal.

You could probably tear into the engine and address the issues before you installed it, but, I can't fathom why go through the trouble to correct an engine that was obviously cheaply engineered to start with.

The LS guys have it too easy.

I lost my Mopar or no car, when Chrysler left me hanging with a Defective 91 Dodge Dakota.. I kept an open mind, till FCA and their just absolute CRAP and even crappier attitude.. So I love anything pre-Daimler!!

SCREW FCA!!!!

But, there aren't a whole lot of options for us Mopar folks..

[Troy]

Ok, so just to make sure we're comparing the same thing here...

are the options a "crate" 440 and a "take out" modern Hemi? Doesn't seem fair. My original response was regarding crate engines for either choice.

If I were spending $4k on a Chevy transmission I'd just do a 4-speed swap (but that's easy to say since all my cars but one have a 4-speed). Which transmission would you use behind the modern Hemi? The newer car transmissions aren't going to fit as far as I know.

Even if the wiring has come down to $1,800 or so for the new Hemi that's still a big chunk of cash that could be spent elsewhere. However, if I were installing one I'd definitely get a plug-n-play harness. I already have too many issues with nightmare projects that take forever and are ridiculously frustrating.

I'd venture to say that a stroked 383/400 with aluminum parts and accessories would be fairly close to the modern Hemi weight.

Troy

[cdr]

and a 440 does not have its issues?  How many issues do we find each day where somewhere reports my old 318, 340, 360, to 440 say, 'my engine wont turn over' etc.

Sigh, I hate to sound like the stubborn dinosaur stuck in the past here, as I'm a pro touring guy.
(My car has EFI, and a ton of other updates.)

I know the Hemi will smoke the RB by any measure. No question. And as a cornering/handling guy, I LOVE the idea of the swap.

But, my opinion is I don't trust FCA's engineering enough to convert a 440 car to a modern Hemi.

Too many random, unpredictable engine failures. I don't trust those engines enough to spend the money.

FCA's quality/reliability record is utter crap, and I'm not interested in tearing down a fairly new 5.7 or 6.1 right off the bat to repair engineering defects that should never have happened.

But, admittedly, I'm not a "Mopar or No Car" fanatic, so I'm not particularly vested in being a guinea pig working out the kinks in gen 3 engine failures on my dime.

Not knocking you guys that have done it, just not for me.

That said, if I were starting from total scratch, and didn't have all the big block accessories on hand, then maybe I could see the appeal.

You could probably tear into the engine and address the issues before you installed it, but, I can't fathom why go through the trouble to correct an engine that was obviously cheaply engineered to start with.

The LS guys have it too easy.

 

LMAO!!! so you wouldn't tear down a low mileage 440 from a motor home to fix its problems LMAO.

[Mike DC]

 
The weight differences in the common 3 Mopar engine families is mostly in the blocks & cranks.  

The other stuff is similar weights in the big picture.  Even the cylinder heads, when they are the same material.


LA: 160-lb block + 55-lb crank = 215

B/RB:  230-lb block + 75-lb crank = 305 (90 lbs over LA)

G3H:  190-lb block + 55-lb crank = 245 (30 lbs over LA)


Aluminum blocks are about 80-90 lbs lighter than iron.  

The "stock" iron reproduction blocks are about 90 lbs heavier than the original iron blocks. 

[Troy]

Not sure how B and RB can be the same weight. I screw it all up by plopping a big A/C compressor on there. Wonder if I can move that to the trunk...

Troy

[2Gunz]

You are correct Troy it did start off as a 440 Crate VS a Modern crate.

The more I explore it the more it seems like a Modern hemi "pull" seems like the best option.


I think the cheapest and easiest (install anyway) thing would be to find a 440 block and rebuild that.
But.... that doesn't get me Overdrive.


So I dunno, Im going to keep researching.

[Troy]

You are correct Troy it did start off as a 440 Crate VS a Modern crate.

The more I explore it the more it seems like a Modern hemi "pull" seems like the best option.


I think the cheapest and easiest (install anyway) thing would be to find a 440 block and rebuild that.
But.... that doesn't get me Overdrive.


So I dunno, Im going to keep researching.

What transmission would you put behind the Hemi? You have to get one either way. In some (most) cases you have exactly the same options.

To be honest (and I could be wrong), I wouldn't waste the time putting in a used 5.7 over a 440. The "performance" engines (6.1, 6.4) will certainly have an edge but then your cost goes right back up again. I daily drive a 392 in my Scat Pack and it's definitely a blast! I also have a 440 Six Pack in my 70 Challenger that scares the heck out of me at times. You won't get nearly the same thing from a 5.7. It will be less tuning and futzing than the 440 and run well in a much wider range of atmospheric conditions but the performance won't be terribly exciting.

Also, it is possible to buy a "take out" 440. I have one in my shop right now! Some guy built it for his drag car, put about 20 passes on it (low 11s) and a couple hundred highway miles, then went to a stroker that probably cost 4 times as much to build. I got this one for about a 3rd of what the receipts added up to. I picked up a Passon 4-speed OD when he had a sale on it a couple years ago. Altogether I have less than $3,000 in the setup. Again, my cars are 4-speeds so I didn't need to buy all the rest of the stuff for any conversion. Honestly, I have 7 (or 8?) engines for 4 cars so, at some point, I'll need to make a choice about what to keep. Maybe that day will be when I put modern engines in everything and have to buy all new stuff!

Troy

[JR]

]


LMAO!!! so you wouldn't tear down a low mileage 440 from a motor home to fix its problems LMAO.

Tear down a motorhome 440 to freshen it up and install speed parts? Of course.

Tear down a (presumably 50k mile salvaged) gen 3 Hemi to repair/correct manufacturer defects caused by poor FCA engineering/cost cutting/lack of concern for engine life past the original warranty period?

Nah.

[2Gunz]

For the transmission I would just use what came with the modern Hemi.

And as far as the 5.7 thing being lack luster HP wise thats a concern.
The good news is I can strap a blower on it.   But then again I could do that with a 440 as well.


Sigh.... not sure lol

[Ponch ®]

]


LMAO!!! so you wouldn't tear down a low mileage 440 from a motor home to fix its problems LMAO.

Tear down a motorhome 440 to freshen it up and install speed parts? Of course.

Tear down a (presumably 50k mile salvaged) gen 3 Hemi to repair/correct manufacturer defects caused by poor FCA engineering/cost cutting/lack of concern for engine life past the original warranty period?

Nah.

The reasoning is solid, but factually i think youre overblowing (no pun intended) the reliability issues of the gen III hemis.

Think about it: just like with anything else, only the horror stories get the publicity - so youre more likely to hear about the 1 in 100 failures rather than the 99 /100 that dont have issues.

And FWIW, the basic engine design is from the DaimlerChrysler era...if anything FCA has addressed and improved on it.

[Troy]

For the transmission I would just use what came with the modern Hemi.

And as far as the 5.7 thing being lack luster HP wise thats a concern.
The good news is I can strap a blower on it.   But then again I could do that with a 440 as well.


Sigh.... not sure lol

I don't think so! I'm nearly 100% positive that the "car" transmissions (the 6.1 and 6.4 only come in cars) will not physically fit in our cars without some significant trans tunnel and cross member modification. The newest ones are computer controlled and haven't been "cracked" so you'll have to make the factory computer work. The older truck transmission (A518) could fit as it was basically a 72 with a Gear Vendor type deal on the back end. A lot of modern Hemi swaps use an older automatic transmission or a 4 or 5 speed. They'll bolt up to anything that an older LA block would.

As much as I hate to point people to other web sites... some reading:
http://www.streetmusclemag.com/tech-stories/drivetrain/silver-sport-transmissions-shifting-classic-mopars-into-overdrive/

A recent discussion that's relevant:
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/2074781/re-what-is-new-in-b-body-transmission-swaps-and-overdrives.html

These huys have a whole section dedicated to these swap (sounds familiar but they have a lot more threads to look at):
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/forums/new-hemi-engine-swaps.83/
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/lets-be-honest.123344/
http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/threads/official-3rd-gen-hemi-thread.89134/

Troy

[2Gunz]

Thanks.....

You just messed up my day...

[Daytona R/T SE]

And as far as the 5.7 thing being lack luster HP wise thats a concern.



Sigh.... not sure lol

I've got a 2011 Ram.

Short bed, regular cab with the 5.7

It runs like a stripped assed ape when I hammer it.

It's the 390 HP version.

Not lack luster at all in my opinion.

I think it would be a great engine/transmission for one of my Chargers.  


Not everything in life needs to be a dick measuring contest.

You don't always need to have the biggest engine, the most horsepower, the hottest old lady...

Sometimes, the simple stuff that just works and works well is best.

I'd find and buy a wrecked late model Ram pickup with the 5.7 and make everything work in the old car.

Sell off what you don't need when you're done.

If it's high mileage, freshen it up.

Rings, bearings, gaskets, etc...

[Mike DC]

 

IMO the "Hemi" name has a way of skewing our thinking a bit.  


If brand loyalty was not a factor, would you consider swapping out a 440 in favor of a 350 Chevy/w big aftermarket heads?  

That's what a 5.7 Hemi is - it's about 350 inches with very good heads.  It's a good motor but it's not a big block.  The big flat low/midrange torque curve is just not there.  The horsepower can be made but it has to rev a lot higher than a big block to get it.    

[2Gunz]

Interesting point.


For me it doesnt have much to do with the Hemi name.

Ive had my car 20+ years and it hasnt really been out much in the last 6.

Somewhere I have lost the magic.  I need to figure out how to enjoy it again or sell the damn thing.

My hope is that putting a modern drive line in will make me want to drive it.

Would I put a Chevy motor in it?  I was lookin at them lol.  Crazy how cheap they are.

This car is a 318 nuthin car.  So I dont feel guilty about hacking it up or doing whatever as long as it gets me in the seat.

[lukedukem]

And as far as the 5.7 thing being lack luster HP wise thats a concern.



Sigh.... not sure lol

I've got a 2011 Ram.

Short bed, regular cab with the 5.7

It runs like a stripped assed ape when I hammer it.

It's the 390 HP version.

Not lack luster at all in my opinion.

I think it would be a great engine/transmission for one of my Chargers.  


Not everything in life needs to be a dick measuring contest.

You don't always need to have the biggest engine, the most horsepower, the hottest old lady...

Sometimes, the simple stuff that just works and works well is best.

I'd find and buy a wrecked late model Ram pickup with the 5.7 and make everything work in the old car.

Sell off what you don't need when you're done.

If it's high mileage, freshen it up.

Rings, bearings, gaskets, etc...

I second this. I have a 2015 ram with the 5.7 and the 8 speed. It hauls butt, and it's 4x4 so it has a little more weight
I would like to find a way to make the eight speed wok, but if not, these 390 hp motors have enough imo

Luke