I need to get a new engine. Modern Hemi? or stick with the 440?

[2Gunz]

So I need to give the engine in my car back to the original donor car.

Which leaves me needing a new engine.

At this point I think Im leaning hard toward a modern  hemi engine.

I love the 440's but I really want the driveabilty of fuel injection and an OD transmission.

The 440 crate motors from what I have found are pretty pricey.
Once you add fuel injection and OD of some sort it gets expensive fast.

Thoughts?


I would love any recommendations on where I should get a Crate 440 from or 5.7/6.1 Hemi from.

If I do go the modern route Im not opposed to the idea of buying a complete wrecked car to strip down myself.
Anybody have a recommendation for that?

Im in southern CA if that helps.

Thanks!

[Troy]

What is your budget? What do you want it to do?

Modern Hemi wiring harnesses are $$$. A Magnum motor much less so and still very powerful with a stroker kit.

You can go EFI on any carb motor with a Fitech or Holley kit for $1,000. Upgrading the fuel system for any EFI is going to cost about the same amount so there's no advantage for any engine there.

The simplest, fastest, and cheapest approach is likely to duplicate what you have.

Your location kind of rules out having something built. Labor rates are way higher there than here in the Midwest. It's actually cheaper to have an engine built here then crated and shipped there. I've sent 2 of mine out there in the past. Usually good reviews for these guys:
http://www.musclemotorsracing.com/

I looooove engine swaps - but I also have a fleet of cars and can drive something else while I work out "installation issues".

Troy

[2Gunz]

Im hoping to keep it under 12k

What are the Transmission options these days for a 440?  It currently has a 727, but I really want something with OD.

Are there any fuel injection options that is a new intake instead of basically a carb with injectors?

Thanks!

[cbrestorations]

modern hemi...faster than the 440, lighter, stops better, handles better, awesome fuel mileage, makes alot more power with just cam swap

[Laowho]

We're "stuck" w/ a fresh 440 but now I'm comin back to TBI again--that, and a 4/5 speed OD will complete our cruisin needs. Point bein, I guess, that there's no good reason not to have these 2 things today?

[cdr]

modern hemi...faster than the 440, lighter, stops better, handles better, awesome fuel mileage, makes alot more power with just cam swap

I really wish I had gone modern Hemi, I built a 512 low deck, & modified a a518 overdrive trans to fit a big block, it hauls ass & can drive 90 mph all day, but I could have had a much better set up for the money with a modern drive line.

[charger chris]

Hmmmmm

[Troy]

I don't think you are getting a modern Hemi "crate" (from Mopar at least) installed in your price range. Here's some prices from when they released the wiring kits and such:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/mopar-unlocks-new-crate-hemi-engine-kits-at-sema-300355444.html

If you're going with a used donor that could be cheaper I suppose but you'll be fighting the wiring without buying some sort of after market harness. There are some swaps detailed here on the site. Power will be great. Reliability and fuel mileage most likely as well. Just not exactly "easy".

Again, a Magnum can give plenty of power and the overall cost is relatively cheap along with the installation being a breeze. It's not as sexy as a 440 or Hemi (new or old). The bonus it that it will bolt up to pretty much any factory transmission (cheaper, simpler, less complicated).

You can run an A518 OD behind a 440 if you cut the front off and use an Ultrabell. It may require some massaging of your floor. There are also some kits to retrofit a Chevy OD trans. I can't remember how well they fit.

There are some MPFI solutions for older engines but the cost will be significantly higher than with TBI. FAST makes them for example. There's a really good thread here on using the DIY Megasuirt system. Less cost, more time and effort.

Troy

[polywideblock]

 12 pages of reading here  http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/forums/new-hemi-engine-swap.57/
would sugest you get as much info as possible then make an educated decision based on what you know and what you want 

[303 Mopar]

I just swapped a 392 Hemi crate engine in my '70 Cuda and a 505 ci stroker in my '68 Charger.  PM me what you want to know and happy to help.

[Ryan.C]

The prices of plug and play GEN III Hemi harness's and control modules have come WAY down in the past 18-24 months. If I had to do it again I would have went with a GEN III instead of my rebuilt 440. I did install a T56 behind the big block which was not as bad as I thought. The trans install would have been much cheaper with a factory engine and trans take out unit. At the time I did mine 392's with a 6 speed were on the spendy side and even more money to get them running in an old car.

[Ponch ®]

I don't think you are getting a modern Hemi "crate" (from Mopar at least) installed in your price range. Here's some prices from when they released the wiring kits and such:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/mopar-unlocks-new-crate-hemi-engine-kits-at-sema-300355444.html

If you're going with a used donor that could be cheaper I suppose but you'll be fighting the wiring without buying some sort of after market harness. There are some swaps detailed here on the site. Power will be great. Reliability and fuel mileage most likely as well. Just not exactly "easy".

Again, a Magnum can give plenty of power and the overall cost is relatively cheap along with the installation being a breeze. It's not as sexy as a 440 or Hemi (new or old). The bonus it that it will bolt up to pretty much any factory transmission (cheaper, simpler, less complicated).

You can run an A518 OD behind a 440 if you cut the front off and use an Ultrabell. It may require some massaging of your floor. There are also some kits to retrofit a Chevy OD trans. I can't remember how well they fit.

There are some MPFI solutions for older engines but the cost will be significantly higher than with TBI. FAST makes them for example. There's a really good thread here on using the DIY Megasuirt system. Less cost, more time and effort.

Troy

I thought those new MOPAR wiring harnesses were supposed to make the swap almost "plug and play" easy? $1800 for the harness, $600 or so for the accessories +cost of the engine? Doesn't seem bad. Ive seen some 5.7s and 6.4s for well under $5K. of course, youre taking a chance on those engines having issues since theyve been "recycled", unless you buy reman or from a place that sells them w/ some type of warranty. I guess the issue w/ the mopar harness is that its only for '14 and newer engines, so theres that...

[chargerbr549]

For me I would stay with the old school 440 and upgrade it with modern quench aluminum heads and other aluminum components to lighten the front end up and there are getting to be alot of different options on what type of fuel injection system you could go with.
As far as a crate motor 440 a possibility would be Muscle Motors? Otherwise I'm sure alot of the guys on here could give you some good options on where to get one built how you want it.
I tend to lean towards big cubic inch motors for these older heavy b bodies since I like lots of off idle torque and not really concerned much about the higher rpm power numbers that smaller engines make, it just depends on where you like your power.
There is a lot of time, money and effort involved in going to a modern hemi swap (but it's getting cheaper), for some it's no biggie and a fun challenge and for others a different story.
On the trans another option might be to go to a 5 speed manual (A-855) from Passion Performance but there's nothing cheap about that option either, the cheapest option would probably be the A518 but there is a lot of work to be done to make it fit and keep driveshaft angle correct.

My 2 cents.

[1974dodgecharger]

Im hoping to keep it under 12k

What are the Transmission options these days for a 440?  It currently has a 727, but I really want something with OD.

Are there any fuel injection options that is a new intake instead of basically a carb with injectors?

Thanks!

I think there is a kit now with wiring harness and a 6.1 to 6.4 setup all under 10k?  Building a 440 to compete a modern hemi for driveability well I say modern wins hands down....

[JR]

I REALLY want to say modern Hemi here.

Almost 300 lbs off the nose of the car vs. a 440.
Smaller, more compact package.
100k mile tuneups.
Better handling, etc.

BUT. The elephant in the room is late model Chrysler reliability. (Or lack thereof.) The 2003-09 5.7s seem to have a history of dropping valve seats after shutdown. There's even a few reports of the late model 5.7s and some 6.1 Hemis having the same failure.

There is probably a solution now in the aftermarket for this. But I wouldn't spend my money risking it.

My 440 is a low compression 9.1 pig that really needs to be gone through, and I'd love to ditch it for the modern engine. But I don't want to gamble with the reliability of the gen 3 Hemi.

As bad as I want the better handling, lighter weight and modern technology, I'll probably end up with an aluminum headed 440 when all is done.

[70 sublime]

I am in Ontario Canada and maybe something to look into before you get too far into choosing

Up here the smog police are checking the old car hot rod toys
They want the car to meet the smog standard for the year of the car or the year of the motor which ever is newer
So anybody with a newer motor they are checking to see if all the smog stuff is hooked up and the car has catilitic converters 

[birdsandbees]

Yep.. it's BS. Get your 1969 safetied first.. change the engine second and it's never an issue again during your ownership. Or have a garage that you've dealt with for 30 years look the other way, when you're bringing something new into a 60/70's body!  

[Mike DC]

  

I REALLY want to say modern Hemi here.

Almost 300 lbs off the nose of the car vs. a 440.

The B/RB's are about 650 lbs (all iron).    Gen-3 Hemis are a lot closer to 500 lbs than 350 lbs.  The G3H's provide a decent weight loss but it's not that big.  

A B/RB loses about 100 lbs when you run a stock iron block + alloy/lighter versions of the other big castings.  That likely puts it within 100 lbs of the G3H.  

[2Gunz]

Good information so far thanks guys!

If I go with a 440 are there any other options than
a 518 or gear vendors? 

The gear vender option seems blah.

Will the 518 stay together with 600+ hp?

What about places to buy the motors?

Thanks!

[2Gunz]

For the modern hemi engine, should I be looking for specific years?  Truck or Car?

Thanks!

[garner7555]

I REALLY want to say modern Hemi here.

Almost 300 lbs off the nose of the car vs. a 440.
Smaller, more compact package.
100k mile tuneups.
Better handling, etc.

BUT. The elephant in the room is late model Chrysler reliability. (Or lack thereof.) The 2003-09 5.7s seem to have a history of dropping valve seats after shutdown. There's even a few reports of the late model 5.7s and some 6.1 Hemis having the same failure.

There is probably a solution now in the aftermarket for this. But I wouldn't spend my money risking it.

My 440 is a low compression 9.1 pig that really needs to be gone through, and I'd love to ditch it for the modern engine. But I don't want to gamble with the reliability of the gen 3 Hemi.

As bad as I want the better handling, lighter weight and modern technology, I'll probably end up with an aluminum headed 440 when all is done.

I agree, the modern hemi isn't known for being the most reliable.  It seems to be hit or miss on getting a good one or not.  I have a 440 in my car, just put aluminum heads, water pump, and housing to save wieght.  I also added FiTech EFI.  I am in re-assembly mode now so I haven't fired it up yet.   If I went with modern engine then the logical choice is a LS engine.  ( I know I will get lynched for saying this.    )  The modern hemi isn't the most reliable, and $$$ per HP is WAY more expensive than the LS.   I prefer the old Chrysler engine so I went 440 even though I mess with wrecked cars and could probably come up with a LS3 or a 392 hemi for under $2500 for the whole car.  Even though I can't deny the cost of the LS, I still didn't want to put one in my Charger.        Something about a Chrysler needs to stay Chrysler.   

[2Gunz]

I didnt know that they had issues.

Which strangely brings up another pro for the modern engine.

Ive babied my car its entire life.  Im kinda over it.  I think Ive taken it out 4 times in 6 years and 2 of them was because I bought a house.
Its lost its fun.

I kinda just wanna drive the hell out of it. Do stuff I normally wouldnt.   Put a super charger on it?  Why not?

Once I get past the swap cost and pain..... If I blow it up.... I can buy one on Craiglist for under $2400 rebuilt.

[Laowho]

Good information so far thanks guys!

If I go with a 440 are there any other options than
a 518 or gear vendors? 

The gear vender option seems blah.

Will the 518 stay together with 600+ hp?

What about places to buy the motors?

Thanks!

We contacted Jamie Passon to get in line for his 4 sp OD, anticipating a wait, and weren't quite ready to do it immediately--price was about $5k for the lighter (23? spline) wh/ is fine for our sub-500 hp build. Followed a two-year thread about his 5-speed kit but never learned whether he got that nailed down. If that's available, and for his stronger version, I'd figure that's gonna be at least $7k?

[303 Mopar]

Good information so far thanks guys!

If I go with a 440 are there any other options than
a 518 or gear vendors? 

The gear vender option seems blah.

Will the 518 stay together with 600+ hp?

What about places to buy the motors?

Thanks!

We contacted Jamie Passon to get in line for his 4 sp OD, anticipating a wait, and weren't quite ready to do it immediately--price was about $5k for the lighter (23? spline) wh/ is fine for our sub-500 hp build. Followed a two-year thread about his 5-speed kit but never learned whether he got that nailed down. If that's available, and for his stronger version, I'd figure that's gonna be at least $7k?

Passon 4 spd OD is a great option, but his 855 5 spd is better.  He is still slowing cranking them out, but I've been on the list for the 5 spd for 3 years and still have a ways to go.

[Troy]

Good information so far thanks guys!

If I go with a 440 are there any other options than
a 518 or gear vendors? 

The gear vender option seems blah.

Will the 518 stay together with 600+ hp?

What about places to buy the motors?

Thanks!

We contacted Jamie Passon to get in line for his 4 sp OD, anticipating a wait, and weren't quite ready to do it immediately--price was about $5k for the lighter (23? spline) wh/ is fine for our sub-500 hp build. Followed a two-year thread about his 5-speed kit but never learned whether he got that nailed down. If that's available, and for his stronger version, I'd figure that's gonna be at least $7k?

Passon 4 spd OD is a great option, but his 855 5 spd is better.  He is still slowing cranking them out, but I've been on the list for the 5 spd for 3 years and still have a ways to go.

I have one of his 4-speed ODs. I didn't bring it up here because I believe the OP is wanting to stay auto. Maybe not?

If you want to have a blast and beat on the car just pick up a used 383 and swap the rear gears. I have a strong 68 HP 383 that cost me $200. You'd have the swap done in a few hours...

Troy