68 Charger Project - Where do I start?

[Vanceric]

Good evening everyone! First post so go easy on me.

These are pics of my 68 Charger R/T Clone. I picked her up about a decade ago for $1000.

Since then life has happened a lot faster than I ever imagined and she has been sitting, waiting. I've finally come to the conclusion that if I wait until I have the funds to do this "right"... as in professionally, it's never going to be done. So with that in mind I intend to begin work once I return from overseas.

I'm not looking for a numbers matching show car and the original engine and transmission are long gone. My goals is to build a car I can drive, not perfect, not pristine, just drive-able. Never to sell.

By my calculations I can "finish" the rear of the car body and structure for around $2000 in sheet metal. I can either try to salvage the existing fenders or replace them. I have a 440 w/ automatic transmission that's been donated from another vehicle. I'm not entirely concerned from a drivetrain perspective.

I'm a pretty decent electrician and have very good attention to detail.

I have no experience and none of the tools required to do this body work but I have done some research, I'm artistically and mechanically inclined, and I think I can struggle through it. Worst case scenario I screw up a car that would never be restored anyway.

It's a lofty dream but it's one I've had since I was a little boy and I'm tired of letting other things get in my way.

So here's what's good and bad on the car:

GOOD
-Inner Fenders
-Roof
-Hood
-Passenger / Back Seat
-All Glass
-Deck Lid
-Front / Rear Floors
-Frame Rails
-Grille

BAD
-Quarters
-Fenders
-Deck Filler Pan
-Trunk Floor
-Outer Wheel Wells
-Rear Valance
-Small Areas on Driver Door
-Rocker Panels


Where would you start?

My game plan so far is:
-Procure cheap air tools / media blaster
-Procure MIG welder
-Practice butt welds until I'm blue in the face
-Disassemble car
-Remove & replace quarters, trunk floor, rear valance
-Media blast everything to see where I'm at
-Prime & Protect undercarriage
-Start meticulously restoring as much as I can salvage and document what needs replaced
-Hope I don't run out of money before I run out of things to work on

Is this a reasonable plan?

[hemi-hampton]

Welcome to the site. In my opinion I'd start at the back & work my way forward. Most people the first thing they want to do is totally disassemble car in a million pieces. I'd only remove parts from back of car like rear Bumper, Tail lights, Trunk (deck) lid, ect, ect. Then start on removing 1/4's & trunk floor ect. When rear is done move forward. Just my opinion, I'm sure others will vary. LEON.

[VegasCharger]

Hello and welcome to DC.com 

hemi-hampton makes good valid points.

My suggestion, I would move this topic over to Charger discussion and start a restoration or rebuild thread topic. Kind of like you did here. That way you can cover all categories and not having to post in different threads. Introduce yourself and your Charger.

Love the 68 and glad another is going to be saved.

[elks]

Many a person have taken a car apart completely and did'nt finish it so don't get to crazy and good luck

[68 charger freak]

1.  Disassemble the car ,bag and tag all the parts, take lots of pics of how it all goes together

2.  Assess the shell,make a list of all the body parts your going to need, only buy amd parts or good original parts. Stay away from Sherman's or goodmark stuff,  you'll save yourself lots of time and headaches ,also stay away from patch panels. replacing the panels  with factory style pieces will give you better results and better return on your investment. plus you won't have to master the time consuming and warp prone but welded

3. Buy electric power tools (not battery powered ones) ,grinder ,drill with a spot weld bit and mig welder .hand tools, hammer and dolly set ,a good set of tin snips red/green,lots of vice grip style c clamps in different sizes, Whitney hand punch.cleco clamp set. If you have an air compressor a air chisel with a sheet metal cutting bit and a spot weld bit is a huge asset. but be careful with it ,it can do a lot of damage the wrong hands

4. Before using any tool read the safety information also read the shop safety post on this site  

5. Learn How to use the mig, I would learn how to make a good plug weld as this should be the weld most used then learn how to stitch weld

5. If your going to replace the rockers ,I suggest building a good rolling jig to keep the the two ends of the car from moving ,nothing worse then a twisted  unibody use a frame  dimensions diagram for the measurements

7. With the car bolted or welded to the jig , Ruff cut out the quarter panels,get it media blasted and epoxy primed

8. I would start with replacing the rockers first just because in order to replace the quarters the rockers must be done first

9. Then I would replace the parts in this order

Remove rear valance and corner caps

Remove rear bumper supports

Remove and install new rear cross member  (if needed

Remove trunk latch support (use clecos for realignment )

Remove trunk pan and trunk extensions

Test fit new full trunk pan and trunk extension clamp in place

Remove inner/outer  wheel wells ,if your lucky you will only need to remove the outer wells, if inner are need make sure that the roof is braced to the floor of the car as there will be little to support the roof

Test fit inner/outer wheel well , clamp In place

Reinstall the original valance and corner caps useing clecos for realignment

Remove what's left of the quarters

Carefully remove the rear filler panel (use clecos for realignment )

Test fit quarters (remove the clamps that hold the rear outer wheel wells to the inner wells this will allow the quarters and wheel well to clamp together properly,after all the body lines and door gaps are set clamp the quarter in place also with the wheel well clamped to the quarter ,re clamp the outer wheel well to the inner well

Next reinstall the filler panel using the clecos, this will set the proper distance between the quarters for proper trunk alignment

Remove the original filler and replace it with the new one , and if amd is as good as they say it is it should fit

With the quarters still aligned with the original valance and corner caps ,and clamped to the extensions ,remove the valance and caps

Test fit the new valance and corner caps, make sure that the edges of the caps are flush with the quarters and valance

Test fit the trunk latch support (use small sheet metal screws  instead of clecos)

Install the quarter panel end caps

Install and test fit the trunk lid make sure all the gaps are even and the trunk is flush with the surrounding panels

[Vanceric]

Thanks so much for the suggestions everyone. I was thinking the back was the most reasonable place to start so it's good to have that validated.

I hear so much about AMD vs Goodmark and others. Other than fit are there other factors that come into play here? When you say it'll save time and effort, does it really save double the money's worth of time and effort?

[Vanceric]

Also, 68 charger freak, amazing post and some good advice there I hadn't already considered.

Has anyone used the side carid.com?

Reason I ask about the site and the cheaper parts is that
1. it's my first project
2. with a military discount I can get all of the metal for the back of the car for what the quarters and valance would cost me from AMD

[mopar4don]

I just checked that site (carid.com) and those prices don't excite me.
If I were you I would try a autometal direct re-seller. they usually sell cheaper than what AMD shows on there web site.

[Lennard]

I hear so much about AMD vs Goodmark and others. Other than fit are there other factors that come into play here? When you say it'll save time and effort, does it really save double the money's worth of time and effort?

You'll save time AND money.  I bought some goodmark panels and they ended up in the scrap pile because of all the work they needed to make them fit right.  The whole shape was just wrong,  but you could only see it when trying on the car. They looked good off the car.
So do yourself a favor and start with the best panels available.  I'm not saying they are perfect but AMD is the best you can buy.
Give Jeff at 521 restorations a call to get a quote:
http://www.521restorations.com/index.pl?page=home

[Troy]

I had a similar epiphany several years ago. I need to post a tools list some time but basically I bought a good welder and a great compressor. Along with the compressor I have very good water/oil filtration. Most all of my air tools for body working (chisels, grinders, sanders, etc.) are Harbor Freight. The straight die grinders can be had on sale for about $9 but you may destroy 2 or 3. I had a 90 degree die grinder by Ingersoll Rand that lasted 3 months where my HF version is going on 4 years. I have a really nice set of Martin body hammers and files. The cheap body hammers can cause more problems than they solve. I use good 3M grinding discs but I buy finishing and sanding discs in bulk on Amazon. I have cheap paint guns from HF too - but I don't shoot finish paint or clear myself.

Realize that at one time I had seven project cars so I could justify some of the more expensive tools. However, things like a good welder and rotisserie can be sold afterwards without taking much of a loss. You'll dump a fortune up front though! If I had only one car and had to do it over again I'd pay someone for the metal work. I may still go that route on the next cars. Primarily because of the time involved. A "professional" can get done in three weeks what it has taken me several years to do.

When buying parts, you may want to buy as you go instead of making a big purchase up front and thinking you've got it all. I had to make four separate orders for my Challenger because I kept finding more rot as it was coming apart. From my perspective, I'd also replace full panels even if you don't think you need the entire thing. Butt welds suck - not so much to weld but to grind and finish. It's a LOT more work and harder to hide than just replacing a panel at the spot welds.

While you have the car at someone else's shop... spend you time and effort refurbishing all the parts you took off. Buying all new stuff (like a complete interior with a console for example) can get expensive in a hurry. These cars are not cheap to build. There are lots of "how to" threads on this site for things like grills, heater boxes, seat covers, mechanical parts, and so forth. These all take time and effort but aren't beyond most people's ability.

Lastly, be truthful with what you want in the end. It's easy to overspend on things that don't matter. A 440 in stock form is pretty potent - but I can't tell you how many guys are running around on the street with 600-700 HP semi-race engines that run hot, don't idle, and cost as much as the rest of the car. If you're happy cruising to Sonic for a milkshake once a week then you don't need a $30k paint job or an engine that only runs on race gas.

Troy

[hemi-hampton]

Decide the time, money & quality you want from the start. Some say I don't need a showcar. just a low budget cruiser. Some say to themselves I want a rotisserie 1st place show winner & don't care if it takes 5-10 years & $100,000+. BUT. most will say low budget cruiser & then half way through the job they decide I've gone this far I might as well go all the way & do a better job & it ends up somewhere inbetween the 2 mentioned above or a half done project on ebay now that they realize they got way to much time & money into it & realize they could of bought a descent daily driver done & cheaper. LEON.

[Vanceric]

Thanks for the advice... the general consensus I've gotten online is that the compressor is more important than the tool you connect to it and DON'T skimp on the cutoff wheels. It's good to hear the HF stuff is acceptable since I have one down the street.

As far as what I want... I want to own and drive a 68 Charger. Damn thing could look the way it is right now and I'd be happy as a clam.

I have no illusions that this thing is going to be first, or tenth for that matter, in show anywhere, but hopefully she can live again.

To be honest I'm a little discouraged by all of the negative comments/reviews on the cheaper parts. Everyone's advice so far is to do full quarters from AMD but that's $1000 minimum any way you slice it. For that same price I could grab quarter skins, cross member, rear valance, a full trunk floor and have money left over towards those trunk extensions and quarter caps. I guess I've got a month or so to think about it before I get home and settled in.

As an enlisted military member I have more time than money... Just so everyone is aware of the level of "restoration" that is being expected, If the car is less than 5 colors when I'm done, it's street legal, and it's safe to drive then I'll consider it a success. I'd "like" to have the car be one solid color with no visible rust or missing body panels. I think it's unrealistic for me to assume that in this decade I could have her professionally painted, with all of her original trim, and the body panels on reasonably straight.

When I used to work in IT I told customers, "I can build you a computer that's fast, reliable, and cheap... but you can only pick two." In this case I can have cheap, easy, or pretty... I'll be lucky if I get one and I have accepted that.

Once I get back home I think I'll start that restoration thread. You guys can laugh even more once you see where I intend to do this. It's going to be interesting...

[Lennard]

Cheap parts aren't cheap anymore when you have to spend days to make them fit or you toss them away because they are totally wrong and you have to buy new/better ones.  

[hemi-hampton]

Cheap parts aren't cheap anymore when you have to spend days to make them fit or you toss them away because they are totally wrong and you have to buy new/better ones.  

I agree. But some others in here insist cheap aftermarket fit good

[68 charger freak]

Don't waste money on cheap parts, as others have said you will end up buying them twice! As for tools, air tools are nice ,but for a home shop / garage they can be a Pain. First your going to need a big compressor to keep up with the high air demand of the tools ,the nice Angle  grinders use tons of air.. waiting 5 minutes for a compressor to build up for 2 minutes of grinding time sucks. next your going to have to feed that compressor and if it's big Plan on running a dedicated wire and breaker to the garage for it, most garage aren't wired for air compressor/ welder use at the same time.next you'll need a good air dryer or you'll end up with water in the tools and on your nice new panels. And then you have to put it somewhere .... I like my electric tools plug and play  

[marshallfry01]

Would goodmark be okay just for floor/trunk pans? I know the outer sheet metal such as goodmark quarters suck.... but I'm not sure about the inner stuff.

[superbirdtom]

Lots of good advise on here for you. the thing I have encountered through the years is people bringing me a car body and they have hardly any money to do metal work and body paint. Why/ because they bought a new motor or had the factory one rebuilt ,they bought new tires wheels -interior rechromed bumpers etc, then still have a heap of a car sitting there. So under no circumstance spend a dime on anything except getting the body and paint work done first however you go about it.  The body and paint work makes or breaks the value of the car. Its a beautiful thing to have a finished body sitting there then go buy all the goodies as you can afford them.   Good luck you will have a valuable car when done! 

[70-500-SE-EXPORT]

AMD also makes quarter skins for $379.. full quarters are $599.
http://www.autometaldirect.com/body-components-quarter-panel-quarter-skins-c-23_145_146.html

[charger_fan_4ever]

Would goodmark be okay just for floor/trunk pans? I know the outer sheet metal such as goodmark quarters suck.... but I'm not sure about the inner stuff.

We skinned my 70 r/t in AMD.

I will say the front floor and rear footwells,trunk floor are the best fitting parts AMD makes, so i would suggest buying AMD for all those. The finish on their outter panels suck. wavy body lines.(rear marker whole not square had to be remade) and all kinds of other things(check my resto thread). Like someone said years ago the jobber stuff gives us something to work with. If doing again id take a look hands on at AMD vs Goodmark for the larger outer panels.

I see lots of cars put on a rotisserie then cut apart. Makes me queazy. Do all your cutting and replacing with the car on its suspension and brace it before cutting off major parts. Only install on the rotisserie once the metal work is done.

[gtx6970]

IMO you start with assessing your skill set. Can you do it. Not just want to do it to learn the process.

What your asking is complicated and very time consuming.
I just did an estimate on another 68 Charger a while back to replace both full quarters, trunk floor , both trunk extensions. tail light panel and rear valance and valance caps( caps need work to get to fit right btw ) . Get it all on and welded in and sealer primer,,,,, owner is going to finish it and paint it himself . estimate was $5000. If it needs more once everything was removed, estimate goes up. About $500 of that is materials .

Start by getting it level, blocked up and braced up ( 1" square tubing is your friend . I weld them in,,,,it makes it a little tough to remove but,,,, that way NOTHING moves around on you.)

Put jack stands under the floorpans/frame rails  in 4 corners. then add 2 more under the rear most portion of the frame rails near the rear bumper. shim as necessary to get it solid. THEN start removing panels.

That said ,, dis-assemble ONLY the area you plan to work in . If replacing quarters on back. Leave from the doors forward intact. Its gives you a solid reference point to re-align panels.
Once you have the back end done, move the 2 rear jack stands the front of the car and re-shim as necessary .

2nd - If I had it to do again I might just use the AMD skins. Making the rear window dutchman panel  fit - sucked.

[cdr]

IMO you start with assessing your skill set. Can you do it. Not just want to do it to learn the process.

What your asking is complicated and very time consuming.
I just did an estimate on another 68 Charger a while back to replace both full quarters, trunk floor , both trunk extensions. tail light panel and rear valance and valance caps( caps need work to get to fit right btw ) . Get it all on and welded in and sealer primer,,,,, owner is going to finish it and paint it himself . estimate was $5000. If it needs more once everything was removed, estimate goes up. About $500 of that is materials .

Start by getting it level, blocked up and braced up ( 1" square tubing is your friend . I weld them in,,,,it makes it a little tough to remove but,,,, that way NOTHING moves around on you.)

Put jack stands under the floorpans/frame rails  in 4 corners. then add 2 more under the rear most portion of the frame rails near the rear bumper. shim as necessary to get it solid. THEN start removing panels.


That said ,, dis-assemble ONLY the area you plan to work in . If replacing quarters on back. Leave from the doors forward intact. Its gives you a solid reference point to re-align panels.
Once you have the back end done, move the 2 rear jack stands the front of the car and re-shim as necessary .

2nd - If I had it to do again I might just use the AMD skins. Making the rear window dutchman panel  fit - sucked.

$5000.00 labor ?

[Vanceric]

$5000.00 labor ?

I second this question... what is an average estimate for this much body work?

$5,000 goes a long way when it comes to my time....

[hemi-hampton]

$5,000  Sounds fair to me. I prefer to charge hourly. Time & Material as some call it. LEON.

[charger_fan_4ever]

$5,000  Sounds fair to me. I prefer to charge hourly. Time & Material as some call it. LEON.

Agreed x2 only way to work on these old relicks is hourly or lose your shirt. Weekly payments and owners coming to see the car and whats being done.

At say 50$ hr that is only 100 hours. For the whole back half sandblasting ect.

[gtx6970]

$5000.00 labor ?

I second this question... what is an average estimate for this much body work?

$5,000 goes a long way when it comes to my time....

Mostly . yes.
I figured about $500 in materials. Thats 100 hours at 45 an hour.
I guarentee you once you get into it ..it will be worst than you thought. Mark my word.

Dont believe me..do it yourself and keep a very close watch on your time.

Cheers
Happy Thanksgiving

[Nickrc3]

$5000.00 labor ?

I second this question... what is an average estimate for this much body work?

$5,000 goes a long way when it comes to my time....

Vanceric, if you can afford it, locate a reputable bodyshop, draft a contract and simply pay the professionals to replace all the sheetmetal. Once all the gaps and lines are established, your efforts in blocking, priming, blocking, priming, and more blocking, priming will save you thousands in labor hours.

Quick story - four years ago, I thought I'd pay a local Bodyman to replace all the rusted steel on my 68' Charger. The agreement was I would contribute my weekend time, thereby reducing his normal hourly rate. No contract, simply cash handed over in an envelope for each task.
In a short period of time I soon realized this was a big mistake - nothing ever got done! He drank heavily, loss his Driver's License, then thrown in jail. Currently, he's MIA.
I was very, very fortunate to get my car (and $10K worth of AMD sheetmetal) out of the garage he rented (which he failed to pay for three months). She's now safely inside a storage unit.
Again, locate a legitimate shop with experience and references. Handshakes and verbal agreements are worthless today.

I now have a contract and scheduled start date with AMD for this March. They will media blast all surfaces, replace all sheetmetal, align gaps, seam seal, and prime. No blocking, priming and paint.

[NMike]

AMD does sheet metal work now?

[hemi-hampton]

"I now have a contract and scheduled start date with AMD for this March. They will media blast all surfaces, replace all sheetmetal, align gaps, seam seal, and prime. No blocking, priming and paint."



Curious how much AMD charges for that type of work? LEON.