440 build

[BSB67]

I'm considering doing something similar to my 440 this winter and will be following this thread closely, among others.  Although you don't mention it, I'm assuming you will be running headers with whatever set up you go with.  Is that your plan or are you trying to retain the original appearance using factory exhaust manifolds?  Does anyone know what the realistic limit in performance gains are if factory magnum exhaust manifolds are retained?  Wonder if it's even worth it to go with Stealth heads (or worked 906's), better intake, higher compression, decent street cam if you don't go with headers?

Sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread, here.

Yes you can use Stealth heads, and you can make very good power.  But you are giving up some power along the way.  Do you have a specific power or performance goal?  Maybe start another thread.

[BSB67]

Apologies for the hijack, but I have debated doing a set of 906's with big valves(2.14" /1.81") in my nogg'in for awhile now, if for no other reason than to show why NOT to do it anymore ? not to mention the expense in rebuilding them properly these days ?
You know... a "step by step" thing with photos, Flow as we go, up to a Bowl Port & Gasket match level.
We would stop at that point, as very obviously the expense going further would far exceed just buying any of the entry level aluminum head options on the market, nonetheless, we could drag some very old and much higher developed iron castings out for comparison up to the 300 cfm level.

Should it be posted here on this thread ? or start a new thread ?
What say you all ?

Bob @ rmp
PS: problem being, WTF are we going to do with a set of 906's these days ? It seems the parts/valves etc. may be worth more than the Heads when done ?

This would be great Bob.  I enjoyed the one you did on the old school build a few years ago.

[BSB67]

Looking through my notes, for the most part it seems like about 240cfm is where the wall is for the 906 type port when done by a novice.
Doesn't seem to matter if it's got 2.08 or 2.14 valves.
This isn't always terrible, but they often have poor low/mid-lift flow as well, along with the numbers taking a nose dive after .500 lift in most cases.
I've had several fresh or hardly run examples like this at my shop that didn't break 230cfm.
The take away here is, bigger valves and a little grinding don't guarantee higher flow numbers.
Where you grind is much more important than how much you grind when it comes to effective bowl work.

Guess I should have read down to this point before I posted.  But this is what I was saying. 

[LowDeck451]

Apologies for the hijack, but I have debated doing a set of 906's with big valves(2.14" /1.81") in my nogg'in for awhile now, if for no other reason than to show why NOT to do it anymore ? not to mention the expense in rebuilding them properly these days ?
You know... a "step by step" thing with photos, Flow as we go, up to a Bowl Port & Gasket match level.
We would stop at that point, as very obviously the expense going further would far exceed just buying any of the entry level aluminum head options on the market, nonetheless, we could drag some very old and much higher developed iron castings out for comparison up to the 300 cfm level.

Should it be posted here on this thread ? or start a new thread ?
What say you all ?

Bob @ rmp
PS: problem being, WTF are we going to do with a set of 906's these days ? It seems the parts/valves etc. may be worth more than the Heads when done ?

I think that's a great idea, would love to see something like that. Just one intake and one exhaust, as PRH mentioned, or if you did do a set of heads, I bet somebody would buy them.

[Challenger340]

I'd say, if you have scrap head, just do one cylinder for the tutorial, and just figure the cost for a pair of heads for each step of the way.

If you do it, I think a separate thread would be good.

Through the years I've had the opportunity to test quite a few "ported" or bowl blended oem bb heads that either came from another shop or that someone did themselves.
Most of them turned out to flow less than what the owner had expected, or was hoping for.
This is generally more true about the 906/915 heads than the ones with the flatter floor(which are just easier to do).

Looking through my notes, for the most part it seems like about 240cfm is where the wall is for the 906 type port when done by a novice.
Doesn't seem to matter if it's got 2.08 or 2.14 valves.
This isn't always terrible, but they often have poor low/mid-lift flow as well, along with the numbers taking a nose dive after .500 lift in most cases.
I've had several fresh or hardly run examples like this at my shop that didn't break 230cfm.
The take away here is, bigger valves and a little grinding don't guarantee higher flow numbers.
Where you grind is much more important than how much you grind when it comes to effective bowl work.

I will make a phonecall, because I think I may have a home for a good set of 906's when done(resto guy).
Been awhile, but might as well just do a set as throw them in the metal bin, because once setup it darn near takes as long to install 2 guides and cut 2 seats as just do all 16 guides/seats, besides, Marty(head guy) can pocket the cash for an X-mas bonus.
It's the porting on the "detroit wonder metal" he won't like ! LOL !

[PRH]

Here's a little sampling of how similar things can yield quite different results.
These are all intake ports(from different heads) 4 are 906's, 1 is a 346 with a 5 minute rough bowl blend, valve job and back cut(E), all have 2.08 intake valves.
Of the 906's, one is a bone stock head with the OE valve and valve job(A), one has had a "napa store" type of rebuild with some bowl blending(C), one was used as part of a magazine article to compare power output with an aftermarket head(they had a narrow valve job, bowl blend, aftermarket valves with back cut)(B), one was done by a shop well versed in these heads(D).

Lift------A-----B-----C-----D-----E
.100--63.0/ 69.0/ 62.4/ 68.4/ 69.8
.200-122.0/148.8/118.3/138.3/141.5
.300-179.3/203.7/178.1/204.9/204.9
.400-213.9/235.6/222.5/248.7/235.6
.450-220.6/224.4/220.6/260.6/241.2
.500-224.4/226.2/222.5/258.0/246.8
.550-230.0/222.5/228.1/254.3/250.5
.600-235.6/222.5/230.3/248.7/252.4

Here's a 906, "fully ported"(there has been "something" done to the entire intake port but in some areas it was nothing more than a little sanding), pinch opened up, Ferrea 2.14 intake valve, valve job. The story i got was these were done by someone in the NYC area, and were intended for a FAST type build.

Lift-----int
.100---65.4
.200--133.8
.300--198.0
.400--238.1
.450--230.4
.500--236.2
.550--240.8
.600--240.0
.650--238.8
.700--233.1

You could have easily made 475-500hp with these on a decent 440 short block with the right cam/induction/headers, but they wouldn't have made for a competitive FAST build if left like this.

[Challenger340]

Here's a little sampling of how similar things can yield quite different results.
These are all intake ports(from different heads) 4 are 906's, 1 is a 346 with a 5 minute rough bowl blend, valve job and back cut(E), all have 2.08 intake valves.
Of the 906's, one is a bone stock head with the OE valve and valve job(A), one has had a "napa store" type of rebuild with some bowl blending(C), one was used as part of a magazine article to compare power output with an aftermarket head(they had a narrow valve job, bowl blend, aftermarket valves with back cut)(B), one was done by a shop well versed in these heads(D).

Lift------A-----B-----C-----D-----E
.100--63.0/ 69.0/ 62.4/ 68.4/ 69.8
.200-122.0/148.8/118.3/138.3/141.5
.300-179.3/203.7/178.1/204.9/204.9
.400-213.9/235.6/222.5/248.7/235.6
.450-220.6/224.4/220.6/260.6/241.2
.500-224.4/226.2/222.5/258.0/246.8
.550-230.0/222.5/228.1/254.3/250.5
.600-235.6/222.5/230.3/248.7/252.4

Here's a 906, "fully ported"(there has been "something" done to the entire intake port but in some areas it was nothing more than a little sanding), pinch opened up, Ferrea 2.14 intake valve, valve job. The story i got was these were done by someone in the NYC area, and were intended for a FAST type build.

Lift-----int
.100---65.4
.200--133.8
.300--198.0
.400--238.1
.450--230.4
.500--236.2
.550--240.8
.600--240.0
.650--238.8
.700--233.1

You could have easily made 475-500hp with these on a decent 440 short block with the right cam/induction/headers, but they wouldn't have made for a competitive FAST build if left like this.

In a way it might be fun to see what these 906's will do ?..... I am guessing 230's to 240's as well ? maybe 250...
FAR EASIER like you said Dwayne, to get the Flow on the low 452/346 ports.
But this project will also be a good excuse, to dig out some of our very old (from the early 80's) fully worked 906/915 castings for comparison ? Which I have been intending to do for some time, now I have an excuse.
I haven't even looked at them in 25+ years, and try them for comparison on the new SuperFlow Bench ?
because,
our old bench back then, was an 8-71 Blower/VFD, with surge tank to negate the blower pulse and 27 ft runs to the orifice plate, yada, yada, and although the capacity was great..... getting the right orifice range at times for valid measurement was always a PITA !  We didn't care much as just to see if going UP or DOWN per se.... but it will still be nice to get more Industry accepted "units" of Flow to what we were doing back then ?
The "Drag Strip" Dyno and slide rule on mph/weight told us we were doing pretty darn good 25 years ago ? but we just never had industry "accepted" Flow numbers.

[PRH]

I'm sure it will be pretty fun testing those old race heads...... They might surprise you.
After you dig it out and look it over, you should come up with a guesstimate to what you think they'll do before you put it on the bench.
I've seen quite a few pictures of heavily reworked OE bb mopar heads from the 80's where there was a ton of work done to them. I can't help but think some of them had to be pretty good.
I always thought some of those old pics of Mullins ported stuff looked pretty good.

The shop I worked at in 1990-1992, we had a guy in town who had a little porting business do the porting for us.
He had a SF-600, so the numbers I'm used to seeing always came from that type of machine.

I bought my little SF-110 new in 1992, and finally upgraded to a Saenz S-600 in 2007.

[heyoldguy]

Here's a little sampling of how similar things can yield quite different results.
These are all intake ports(from different heads) 4 are 906's, 1 is a 346 with a 5 minute rough bowl blend, valve job and back cut(E), all have 2.08 intake valves.
Of the 906's, one is a bone stock head with the OE valve and valve job(A), one has had a "napa store" type of rebuild with some bowl blending(C), one was used as part of a magazine article to compare power output with an aftermarket head(they had a narrow valve job, bowl blend, aftermarket valves with back cut)(B), one was done by a shop well versed in these heads(D).

Lift------A-----B-----C-----D-----E
.100--63.0/ 69.0/ 62.4/ 68.4/ 69.8
.200-122.0/148.8/118.3/138.3/141.5
.300-179.3/203.7/178.1/204.9/204.9
.400-213.9/235.6/222.5/248.7/235.6
.450-220.6/224.4/220.6/260.6/241.2
.500-224.4/226.2/222.5/258.0/246.8
.550-230.0/222.5/228.1/254.3/250.5
.600-235.6/222.5/230.3/248.7/252.4

Here's a 906, "fully ported"(there has been "something" done to the entire intake port but in some areas it was nothing more than a little sanding), pinch opened up, Ferrea 2.14 intake valve, valve job. The story i got was these were done by someone in the NYC area, and were intended for a FAST type build.

Lift-----int
.100---65.4
.200--133.8
.300--198.0
.400--238.1
.450--230.4
.500--236.2
.550--240.8
.600--240.0
.650--238.8
.700--233.1

You could have easily made 475-500hp with these on a decent 440 short block with the right cam/induction/headers, but they wouldn't have made for a competitive FAST build if left like this.

In a way it might be fun to see what these 906's will do ?..... I am guessing 230's to 240's as well ? maybe 250...
FAR EASIER like you said Dwayne, to get the Flow on the low 452/346 ports.
But this project will also be a good excuse, to dig out some of our very old (from the early 80's) fully worked 906/915 castings for comparison ? Which I have been intending to do for some time, now I have an excuse.
I haven't even looked at them in 25+ years, and try them for comparison on the new SuperFlow Bench ?
because,
our old bench back then, was an 8-71 Blower/VFD, with surge tank to negate the blower pulse and 27 ft runs to the orifice plate, yada, yada, and although the capacity was great..... getting the right orifice range at times for valid measurement was always a PITA !  We didn't care much as just to see if going UP or DOWN per se.... but it will still be nice to get more Industry accepted "units" of Flow to what we were doing back then ?
The "Drag Strip" Dyno and slide rule on mph/weight told us we were doing pretty darn good 25 years ago ? but we just never had industry "accepted" Flow numbers.

Hmmm, will be watching the 906 thread with intense interest and trying desperately trying to stay out of trouble.

[Challenger340]

[/quote]

Hmmm, will be watching the 906 thread with intense interest and trying desperately trying to stay out of trouble.
[/quote]

LOL ! Nobody ever gets in trouble around here Jim, waay too many polite Canadians in here for that !
But....
just put a ONE SINGLE Donut down in the crowd.... game on 'eh !

[Challenger340]

Geezuz, I must be getting old ?
I completely forgot about posting this Ported 915 picture here on this forum back 10 years ago ?  I can't remember, but seems to me these Flowed right around 290 cfm @ .600" to .650" back in the day on our old Bench ?
see here
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,21828.msg238499.html#msg238499


It's one of the castings I will dig out for the new 906 Head Thread, for comparison on the new Bench. Yes, it is a 915 as opposed to doing a 906 Open Chamber, but the Intake Ports are virtually the same between the 906 and 915, just as an example of what can be done if you have brain damage ?
I don't recommend this level of work be undertaken on any iron head these days, just too much darn work !
Too Funny,
This 915 Pic has been floating around on the internet for a decade ?
with even someone from over at Moparts posting this same Picture of OUR HEAD from back in the 80's as an example ?
http://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/download/Number/217737/filename/915%20combustion%20chamber.jpg