440 build

[John Milner]

I'm building a 440 for my '68 Charger and would like some opinions on my combination.  I will be running a 4 speed and around a 3:90 gear. 

My combination so far:

440, .040 six pack pistons
Stock rods with ARP bolts
Forged crank
906 heads with some port work and 2.14 1.81 valves.
CH4B Edelbrock intake

I want to run a hydraulic camshaft, so I was thinking of the comp 285HL (241/247 @ .050, .581/.581) or possibly a hughes cam (242/246 @.050 .563 .573).  I'm looking for around 500 HP or a little over.  It's a street car but I want something that will make good power.  I'm not running any power brakes, a/c or power steering.   Do either of these cams look like they will meet my goals?  Any other recommendations?

[Challenger340]

I think the Holley Street Dominator would be a better Intake choice ?

Either Cam can get you there ? 
But I would suggest Flowing the Heads as a first step to Cam selection, and in making sure your 906's can actually utilize the higher lifts ? especially since either Cam may see 320# plus V/Spring pressure over the nose depending on the V/Spring ? (which can be hard on Cam Lobes during extended street usage even with zinc)
just say'in here....
2.14"/1.81" Valves in 906 Heads is no guarantee of extra Flow ? The high floor 906's need timed short turn and bowl work to take advantage of the larger Valve, and I have actually seen them flow LESS at higher lifts when bubba'd ?

Getting them Flowed will also help you determine "where" to shift, because Cam cards are USELESS(propaganda).
Just because a Cam card says "3000 to 6,500 rpm".... you may find with your Head Flow things are all over by 5,400 rpm, and NO POINT going slower as you try rev'ing higher past 5,400 ?  It may sound "better" revving higher, but you are on the DOWN side of the power curve.

[John Milner]

Thanks for the reply.  I am not sure if there is a place around my area that flows heads.  I will ask around.  I might try some of those aluminum "stealth" heads at some point but I already have these on hand.  Really just looking for a really strong runner that will hold its own on the street.

[Laowho]

We've got your setup but our 3:23 rear "driver" has a milder Hughes 223/228. All said and for what we do with it it's good, but only 435hp and tho cam card says 5500rpm actual peak is 5k. Kinda high LSA on the Hughes? (or just our particular cam @ 111).

[BSB67]

I'm building a 440 for my '68 Charger and would like some opinions on my combination.  I will be running a 4 speed and around a 3:90 gear.  

My combination so far:

440, .040 six pack pistons
Stock rods with ARP bolts
Forged crank
906 heads with some port work and 2.14 1.81 valves.
CH4B Edelbrock intake

I want to run a hydraulic camshaft, so I was thinking of the comp 285HL (241/247 @ .050, .581/.581) or possibly a hughes cam (242/246 @.050 .563 .573).  I'm looking for around 500 HP or a little over.  It's a street car but I want something that will make good power.  I'm not running any power brakes, a/c or power steering.   Do either of these cams look like they will meet my goals?  Any other recommendations?

What is your 906 head budget?  You need a very good set of 906 heads to get to 500 hp, and most people do not realize what a good set of 906 will cost. (i.e. if you cannot afford a set of Stealth heads, you cannot afford a good set of 906 heads.)

[BSB67]

We've got your setup but our 3:23 rear "driver" has a milder Hughes 223/228. All said and for what we do with it it's good, but only 435hp and tho cam card says 5500rpm actual peak is 5k. Kinda high LSA on the Hughes? (or just our particular cam @ 111).

Usually they give an rpm range, and they don't know if you have a 361 or a 500 cu.in engine.  So I would not get too hung up on what the card says.  Also, if the peak power was at 5000, your best shift point will be 5500 or maybe a little more with that LSA, is my guess.

[Laowho]

Initially I had some HP greed and was lookin around for ported heads to "complete" the build but realized the 906s were right for our cam/headers/intake/780 carb, differential, highway drivin, etc. All good. But yeah...at first I was like--how do you stop shy of 500hp? yada yada yada Took me a while.

[John Milner]

Thanks for the replies everyone.  As far as the 906 heads I am just out the cost for the valves and springs.  The heads have already been ported some in the past and I have my own machines to cut the seats for the larger valves and open them up some.

[Laowho]

The guys here know a lot and I know NUTHIN except what I've read researchin our build b/c of my HP angst. A lot of the reading said what Challenger340 said re: springs, and what BSB67 is saying, maybe especially re: the difficulty of porting the 906s adequately and properly b/c of the relatively thin walls and compromises to the water jacket. Dunno how true this is. Our deck was milled which helped w/ getting compression toward 10:1, liked the heat retention of cast iron, the 3-angle valve job was about all our mild build needed, etc...Just bumping the thread cuz I wanna see where this goes.

[heyoldguy]

Here is the whole saga of the 440 tests we did with the same pistons you will run, 8.9:1 compression, XE285HL camshaft, 346 heads and the airflow we got out of them. Included are the torque and horsepower results we managed to get. I believe you will be short on your power expectations mostly because of the intake manifold and the probable airflow of your 906 heads.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,107398.0.html

[John Milner]

Thanks for the replies.  It looks like you made close to 500 horse with the iron heads with smaller valves first dyno pull.  I'll be happy with close to 500 horse. 

[BSB67]

The heads have already been ported some in the past and I have my own machines to cut the seats for the larger valves and open them up some.

That's good.  But nothing offered above necessarly suggests a good set on 906 heads

[BSB67]

Here is the whole saga of the 440 tests we did with the same pistons you will run, 8.9:1 compression, XE285HL camshaft, 346 heads and the airflow we got out of them. Included are the torque and horsepower results we managed to get. I believe you will be short on your power expectations mostly because of the intake manifold and the probable airflow of your 906 heads.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,107398.0.html

You have posted this a few times in the past, but I really like revisiting this series of tests.  The power falling off the edge on the world at 5300 rpm with the fast rate hydraulic cams is what we see all the time.  The lifter just cannot do it.  That loss of 600 rpm is probably a half second of et. and 4 mph.

[heyoldguy]

Thanks for the replies.  It looks like you made close to 500 horse with the iron heads with smaller valves first dyno pull.  I'll be happy with close to 500 horse. 

Reality bites. My son spent 6 months with our flowbench and die grinders until he had a pallet full of cast iron dust and worthless heads. At that time he had one set of heads that almost flowed what the 346 heads did that we used in the quoted dyno tests.

[BSB67]

Thanks for the replies.  It looks like you made close to 500 horse with the iron heads with smaller valves first dyno pull.  I'll be happy with close to 500 horse. 

Reality bites. My son spent 6 months with our flowbench and die grinders until he had a pallet full of cast iron dust and worthless heads. At that time he had one set of heads that almost flowed what the 346 heads did that we used in the quoted dyno tests.

My point about good heads.

[PRH]

The heads don't really need to be great for 500hp.
Get them so they are an honest 245-250cfm, and not back up too bad until after .550 lift and they would be good enough to get you close to(or surpass) 500hp.

I would skip the hyd cam altogether and put a mild solid in it(mid-240's @ .050)and not have to worry about the lifters limiting the upper rpm capability of the motor.

I would use KB quench dome pistons instead of flat tops, get it close to 10:1 with decent quench, rpm intake, 1 7/8" headers.

If the heads are fairly decent, that will easily make 480-500hp.

[BSB67]

The heads don't really need to be great for 500hp.
Get them so they are an honest 245-250cfm, and not back up too bad until after .550 lift and they would be good enough to get you close to(or surpass) 500hp.

I would skip the hyd cam altogether and put a mild solid in it(mid-240's @ .050)and not have to worry about the lifters limiting the upper rpm capability of the motor.

I would use KB quench dome pistons instead of flat tops, get it close to 10:1 with decent quench, rpm intake, 1 7/8" headers.

If the heads are fairly decent, that will easily make 480-500hp.

Welcome

Agreed.

What would it cost to have a used set of 906 brought to 250 cfm including guides and valves ready to bolt on for use with a small solid?

[justcruisin]

I, and many others have done this exercise before on a performance build, unless you can do the work yourself or there is other reasons for going OE, you might as well pony up for an alloy head that suits your needs. Much better engine at the end of the day.

[CRW-FK5]

I'm considering doing something similar to my 440 this winter and will be following this thread closely, among others.  Although you don't mention it, I'm assuming you will be running headers with whatever set up you go with.  Is that your plan or are you trying to retain the original appearance using factory exhaust manifolds?  Does anyone know what the realistic limit in performance gains are if factory magnum exhaust manifolds are retained?  Wonder if it's even worth it to go with Stealth heads (or worked 906's), better intake, higher compression, decent street cam if you don't go with headers?

Sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread, here.

[PRH]

What would it cost to have a used set of 906 brought to 250 cfm including guides and valves ready to bolt on for use with a small solid?

Russ,
As I know you know....... If you have to pay to have it done, at most shops this will exceed the cost of a set of Stealths. Since it sounds like the OP is planning on doing the bulk of the work himself, then it's still a viable way to go IMO.
In the same vein, while I would do a set of ported OE heads for myself, I don't advocate that route for customers(unless it's for a class where OE heads are required) because it's more expensive and you end up with "less" of a head.

But, to answer your question, without actually looking anything up......  Off the top of my head I'd say about $1600-1700.
Using 346/902/452 heads with 2.14/1.81 valves this would put you at an honest 260cfm at around .500 lift.
906/915 heads would require a little more work reshaping the intake short turn and would probably add another $100 to the bill.

Labor:
-oven clean
-mag
-install bronze guides
-install exhaust seats
-machine valve seats for 2.14/1.81 valves
-machine for spring cups and posi-seals
-flat mill to 84cc
-blend bowls and intake openings
-flow test
-final jet wash, assemble, set spring pressures


Then for parts:
-stainless valves
-spring cups
-Viton seals
-single springs
-steel retainers
-machined locks
-exhaust seats
-bronze guides

Any broken stud or bolt extraction, or thread repair would be at additional cost.

CRW: if your intention is to have an honest 500 steet/pump gas friendly hp, and run exhaust manifolds, IMO the best way to do that is with a stroker crank and aftermarket heads.
It's just harder to get there without headers.

We did a 10:1 446 this spring. KB flat tops, prepped/blended sidewinder heads(flowed like 290), rpm, qft850, 250/254-108 solid, .540/.550 with 1.5's, made 552tq@ 4500, 550hp@ 6200 with my (too big) dyno headers.
Would have been an honest 525-535hp with some 1 7/8" on it.

[Challenger340]

Apologies for the hijack, but I have debated doing a set of 906's with big valves(2.14" /1.81") in my nogg'in for awhile now, if for no other reason than to show why NOT to do it anymore ? not to mention the expense in rebuilding them properly these days ?
You know... a "step by step" thing with photos, Flow as we go, up to a Bowl Port & Gasket match level.
We would stop at that point, as very obviously the expense going further would far exceed just buying any of the entry level aluminum head options on the market, nonetheless, we could drag some very old and much higher developed iron castings out for comparison up to the 300 cfm level.

Should it be posted here on this thread ? or start a new thread ?
What say you all ?

Bob @ rmp
PS: problem being, WTF are we going to do with a set of 906's these days ? It seems the parts/valves etc. may be worth more than the Heads when done ?

[PRH]

I'd say, if you have scrap head, just do one cylinder for the tutorial, and just figure the cost for a pair of heads for each step of the way.

If you do it, I think a separate thread would be good.

Through the years I've had the opportunity to test quite a few "ported" or bowl blended oem bb heads that either came from another shop or that someone did themselves.
Most of them turned out to flow less than what the owner had expected, or was hoping for.
This is generally more true about the 906/915 heads than the ones with the flatter floor(which are just easier to do).

Looking through my notes, for the most part it seems like about 240cfm is where the wall is for the 906 type port when done by a novice.
Doesn't seem to matter if it's got 2.08 or 2.14 valves.
This isn't always terrible, but they often have poor low/mid-lift flow as well, along with the numbers taking a nose dive after .500 lift in most cases.
I've had several fresh or hardly run examples like this at my shop that didn't break 230cfm.
The take away here is, bigger valves and a little grinding don't guarantee higher flow numbers.
Where you grind is much more important than how much you grind when it comes to effective bowl work.

[cdr]

The heads don't really need to be great for 500hp.
Get them so they are an honest 245-250cfm, and not back up too bad until after .550 lift and they would be good enough to get you close to(or surpass) 500hp.

I would skip the hyd cam altogether and put a mild solid in it(mid-240's @ .050)and not have to worry about the lifters limiting the upper rpm capability of the motor.

I would use KB quench dome pistons instead of flat tops, get it close to 10:1 with decent quench, rpm intake, 1 7/8" headers.

If the heads are fairly decent, that will easily make 480-500hp.

Good to see you here, I always look forward to your post on the OTHER web sit the knowledge you have is amazing  ,  are you talking Moroso slide rule 500 HP ?

Thanks Charlie

[PRH]

When I reference a power number, I'm talking about what it should make on an engine dyno(either what it made when tested, or what I'd expect to see if I had).

For me, the Moroso slide rule is a good way to gauge how good(or bad) your overall combo is.
A really good car can beat the slide rule, and a poor(or even mediocre) car can make a pretty good motor look soft.

I like to get the real numbers on the dyno, to make sure the combo is making what's expected, and to verify there aren't any issues with customer supplied accesories(distributors, carbs, wires, etc.) before it gets put in the car.
It's also much easier to soft spring the cam break in when you're running a cam that has pretty stout springs.

This way, if the motor makes what it's supposed to, but the car is under performing, you know not to mess with the motor. The problem is somewhere else.

[BSB67]

What would it cost to have a used set of 906 brought to 250 cfm including guides and valves ready to bolt on for use with a small solid?

Russ,
As I know you know....... If you have to pay to have it done, at most shops this will exceed the cost of a set of Stealths. Since it sounds like the OP is planning on doing the bulk of the work himself, then it's still a viable way to go IMO.
In the same vein, while I would do a set of ported OE heads for myself, I don't advocate that route for customers(unless it's for a class where OE heads are required) because it's more expensive and you end up with "less" of a head.

But, to answer your question, without actually looking anything up......  Off the top of my head I'd say about $1600-1700.
Using 346/902/452 heads with 2.14/1.81 valves this would put you at an honest 260cfm at around .500 lift.
906/915 heads would require a little more work reshaping the intake short turn and would probably add another $100 to the bill.

Thanks.  That is about what I would have guessed.  You know I don't have a problem spending a few $ on iron heads.  I know I'm one of few, but if I need 260 cfm head, I would just as soon have a guy use his skill to do the job and pay him for it than buy something new.

My only reason for stressing the "good" 906 heads in this thread is that few understand what good is, and what it costs.  I wish I had a dollar every time someone thought that they had good heads.  In this case the concern is that the OP thinks that simply putting in 2.14/1.81 makes them good.  And maybe they are.  But that means that someone else probably put $1000+ into them not to long ago.

Very cool that you are posting here.