Why are there so many aero cars with matching numbers?

[Galevin]

As some of you know, I'm seriously in the market for a Superbird/Daytona and amazed at all the matching number cars. With these cars being literal race cars, subject to what typically happens to race engines after 45 years, why is it that there are so many matching number cars? Many of these cars have documentation from day one and include a notebook of docs but is that engine really original to that car? How can you really tell? Simple answer is you can't.

Check out this link
http://www.bigblockbruce.com/engine_number_restamping.html
This is one of many stampers that has all the fonts and can restamp a block to look original

Even Bloomington Gold and the NCRS accepts this (I've read there are more numbers matching 427/435 1967's then were ever produced).

Big Block Bruce says "The answer is yes I am providing a legitamate service. In fact a much sought after service that the National Corvette Restorer's Society accepts when it is judging and certifying Corvettes as does the Bloomington Gold show the last weekend of every June. "

The bottom line:
Even if a car has an original invoice, a hundred pages of docs, how do you know that the engine is the one that originated in the car? Using the same font and spacing, even experts can't tell the difference. Unless you bought the car originally, how do you know beyond a shadow of doubt? Especially if you used a replacement engine that was date code correct.

That sux when you spend 6 figures on a car which I'm contemplating. I'd be sick if technology in the future could detect a restamp and my treasured matching numbers car turned out to be a fake.
Gerald

[Aero426]

The survival rate on street wing cars is pretty high.    I attribute this to the weird factor.    Some cars were indeed run hard early on.   But many were not.    These cars were viewed as special right from the beginning.  

Also, you must separate the oval track race cars from the street wing cars.   Although they share some body parts, they don't have much to do with each other as to their origin.    I agree it would be very difficult for an original drag or oval track wing car to have one of the many different engines it may have raced with.   

[charger_fan_4ever]

That sux when you spend 6 figures on a car which I'm contemplating. I'd be sick if technology in the future could detect a restamp and my treasured matching numbers car turned out to be a fake.
Gerald

So your saying if you paid 6 figures and it not be the original engine you consider being screwed. That being said how much value do you figure it adds to the car to be legitimate ? Yes id be mad if i was lied to and was a restamp.

If its not the original engine is it only worth 80k?

Ive never really understood the fixation on the whole #'s match thing. My 70 r/t is neither original engine or trans. On the flip side we have a 68 beaumont SD 396 350hp #'s match engine/trans. Ya its neat that its the original drivetrain, but id have bought it still if it wasn't.

But as mentioned they were odd ball cars, probably didn't get drove as much as the average car.

[Galevin]

"So your saying if you paid 6 figures and it not be the original engine you consider being screwed? That being said how much value do you figure it adds to the car to be legitimate ?"

Yes if I paid $100k for an original matching numbers car and it turned out to be misrepresented with a non original engine I would be devasted. And would seek legal counsel and would try to reverse the deal. I may be in the vast minority but I want and demand originality and can afford the extra (sometimes huge premium) that accompanies that. If I buy a Superbird, Daytona or a Rembrandt, and pay the premium for originality, I expect what I pay for and would be crushed if it were fake. That's just me (and quite a few other serious car collectors).
Gerald

[Troy]

This is why having a community of people who have been around these cars since new is so valuable. If a car was sold in the 80s as a basket case that had been wrecked at the drag strip after blowing 3 engines someone knows about it when it comes up for sale as a numbers matching low mileage car.

Troy

[Derwud]

Buy a non-numbers matching and enjoy it..

I would be more worried about build quality, fit and finish, and use of NOS vs RePop parts..

[hemi-hampton]

"On the flip side we have a 68 beaumont SD 396 350hp #'s match engine/trans. Ya its neat that its the original drivetrain, but id have bought it still if it wasn't."


Charger fan, you say you would of still bought it, Would you for same price if not #'s matching or would you offer less? LEON.

[charger_fan_4ever]

"On the flip side we have a 68 beaumont SD 396 350hp #'s match engine/trans. Ya its neat that its the original drivetrain, but id have bought it still if it wasn't."


Charger fan, you say you would of still bought it, Would you for same price if not #'s matching or would you offer less? LEON.

Nope was running and driving wouldnt have offered less, was just a bonus that it was #s match. The owner had it since 76 and didn't even know it was #'s match.
Im no gm man dont get me wrong, but the whole "#'s thing" seems to have less effect on price than in mopar world. As the op stated vette guys judging say restamping is ok.( i dont agree with that)

[charger_fan_4ever]

"So your saying if you paid 6 figures and it not be the original engine you consider being screwed? That being said how much value do you figure it adds to the car to be legitimate ?"

Yes if I paid $100k for an original matching numbers car and it turned out to be misrepresented with a non original engine I would be devasted. And would seek legal counsel and would try to reverse the deal. I may be in the vast minority but I want and demand originality and can afford the extra (sometimes huge premium) that accompanies that. If I buy a Superbird, Daytona or a Rembrandt, and pay the premium for originality, I expect what I pay for and would be crushed if it were fake. That's just me (and quite a few other serious car collectors).
Gerald

Yes i agree being frauded is not ok by any means. I meant what would you value the difference between a Non #s car vs a true #s match ?

[Galevin]

Personally I wouldn't pay a dime more than $50k for a non matching bird/Daytona whereas I tried to buy one last week that was matching numbers for $135k plus 10% commission ($148,500) and was outbid. Yes I understand an OEM wing is $7000 so there is plenty of value in a no matching number bird/Daytona but that has little value to me. When I buy art (cars or paintings), I want the best and will pay the premium. Just don't want to get ripped off by a fake bought at a premium price. Numbers matching means everything to me (and I can assure you to many other owners).
Gerald

[hemi-hampton]

"On the flip side we have a 68 beaumont SD 396 350hp #'s match engine/trans. Ya its neat that its the original drivetrain, but id have bought it still if it wasn't."


Charger fan, you say you would of still bought it, Would you for same price if not #'s matching or would you offer less? LEON.

Nope was running and driving wouldnt have offered less, was just a bonus that it was #s match. The owner had it since 76 and didn't even know it was #'s match.
Im no gm man dont get me wrong, but the whole "#'s thing" seems to have less effect on price than in mopar world. As the op stated vette guys judging say restamping is ok.( i dont agree with that)

If the owner didn't know it was matching #'s who told him. If if it doesn't matter then why even look to see if it is? LEON.

[DAY CLONA]

Buy a non-numbers matching and enjoy it..

I would be more worried about build quality, fit and finish, and use of NOS vs RePop parts..

Agreed, numbers don't mean squat if the resto is hiding inferior work, besides a non numbers matching car and a numbers matching car go down the road the same way, and feel the same from the drivers seat, most uneducated buyers nowadays don't have a clue that some of their portfolios on wheels are restamped, rebodied anyway....

[oldchevelle541]

At a local cruise night we polled some opinions and asked the question. If you had 2 identical cars and the one with original motor was a sheet metal basket case with a lot of rot and the other was original sheet metal is excellent condition with little or no body work and a period correct non numbers engine which would you rather buy. The response in the majority was to buy the car with great original sheet metal. All wanted a car with good bones.  I am a numbers matching guy myself who likes paperwork but in some cases past opportunities you were interested in unfortunately did not have all those desirable qualities. Some say a car with all the paper, etc. is worth $5K more. It's a matter of opinion and a matter of what is of value to you. I am happy with what I have.....a car with all original sheet metal but engine is not numbers but tranny and rear end is.

Final thought - are we looking to buy to enjoy or as an investment. I enjoy mine simply because they exist.

[Hemi Runner]

Personally I wouldn't pay a dime more than $50k for a non matching bird/Daytona whereas I tried to buy one last week that was matching numbers for $135k plus 10% commission ($148,500)
Gerald

If a nonmatching numbers wing car could be had for $50k I wouldn't be building a clone. You'd be lucky to get a nicely done fiberglass clone for $50K.

[cdr]

This is a HILARIOUS Thread!!!!   

[Davtona]

Personally I wouldn't pay a dime more than $50k for a non matching bird/Daytona Gerald

Good luck with that. Don't bother getting the check book out for the 50K Daytona as you are about 20 years too late on that. You need to find a car with a history known to people who are long term into the hobby & not a car that just has a bunch of paper work. Those cars are out there the true original matching number cars that are well known to be such. But they are not going to be in the price range you are talking. Especially a Daytona. Most of those cars were bought up and tucked away long ago and are not for sale.

[Redbird]

Galevin,

I think it is great you are looking for a quality car.

To find a car that without a doubt is exactly as presented will take some work on your part. The idea that the system will protect an unknowing buyer is wishful thinking.

You have said that you would not spend 50k for a non matching car. That territory is safe because that unicorn is elusive.

There are plenty of cars that are what they are represented as being. There are plenty of perfect paperwork numbers cars that have been worked on too. A brief search of the interweb will show a wide variety of very modified cars from the 1970's. Where are all those cars now? Oh wait they all look factory original now.

I'd suggest learning a bit yourself before you buy.

Best wishes!

[Galevin]

This is a HILARIOUS Thread!!!!   

CDR, I'm happy I amuse you.

This thread is getting off topic. It's not a non-matching vs matching thread....it's why are there so many matching numbers birds/daytonas? I did get a good answer above about the survival rates being so good. I still suspect that there are restamped birds out there which is ruining it for those of us that demand original cars. When there is this much money at stake its a likely answer.....unfortunately.
Gerald

[62 Max]

This is a HILARIOUS Thread!!!!  

CDR, I'm happy I amuse you.

This thread is getting off topic. It's not a non-matching vs matching thread....it's why are there so many matching numbers birds/daytonas? I did get a good answer above about the survival rates being so good. I still suspect that there are restamped birds out there which is ruining it for those of us that demand original cars. When there is this much money at stake its a likely answer.....unfortunately.
Gerald

I think you actually turned it into a non-matching vs matching thread a few post back !

[Derwud]

I make my own art, if I can't make it or take a picture of it. I have my wife paint it or sketch it..

To your point though, If you advertise it as numbers matching, it better have all the VIN tagged parts it came from the plant with, period!!! Is it worth more, only to trailer queen lovers... If you are only buying as an investment, cool! I love these cars and the thrill they give when driven, but I am a poor Effer..

[crj1968]

. I still suspect that there are restamped birds out there which is ruining it for those of us that demand original cars. When there is this much money at stake its a likely answer.....unfortunately.
Gerald

You better believe it and even the experts are fooled.

$50K for a non matching Daytona? Where?   

[hemi-hampton]

Find a 1 owner low mileage original survivor Daytona ( I know, not a easy task) & you'll have a better chances of it being legite #'s matching, ect. Then restore that one if you need to. A car with 20 owners & 20 paint jobs over past 45 years who knows what has happened to it.  LEON.

[odcics2]

I agree it would be very difficult for an original drag or oval track wing car to have one of the many different engines it may have raced with.   

  Especially a documented one...   

[charger_fan_4ever]

"On the flip side we have a 68 beaumont SD 396 350hp #'s match engine/trans. Ya its neat that its the original drivetrain, but id have bought it still if it wasn't."


Charger fan, you say you would of still bought it, Would you for same price if not #'s matching or would you offer less? LEON.

Nope was running and driving wouldnt have offered less, was just a bonus that it was #s match. The owner had it since 76 and didn't even know it was #'s match.
Im no gm man dont get me wrong, but the whole "#'s thing" seems to have less effect on price than in mopar world. As the op stated vette guys judging say restamping is ok.( i dont agree with that)

If the owner didn't know it was matching #'s who told him. If if it doesn't matter then why even look to see if it is? LEON.

I showed him before buying the car. Was curious if it really was a factory 350hp car more than anything. Its in a rat rod state and been drove that way since 1976. Engine had an inch of grime on it. I noticed still had the 396 350hp decal on the open element air cleaner. Looked original so i took a chunk of grime off the stamp.If the vin # was there id know quick if it was a 350hp car didnt know what the cowl tag code was for the 350hp option. We are probably going to take the original th400 out and put a 4 speed in it.

[cudavic]

This is a HILARIOUS Thread!!!!   

CDR, I'm happy I amuse you.

This thread is getting off topic. It's not a non-matching vs matching thread....it's why are there so many matching numbers birds/daytonas? I did get a good answer above about the survival rates being so good. I still suspect that there are restamped birds out there which is ruining it for those of us that demand original cars. When there is this much money at stake its a likely answer.....unfortunately.
Gerald

Gerald

I highly doubt that many people selling Daytona's or Superbird's are going through the process of re-stamping non-original engines and drive trains.
First it is fraud. No I am not naive, whenever there is money to be made fraud can and might occur.

However there is more to just having the proper metal stamp fonts.
Whether it be the engine block, transmission or rear end the casting codes are going to need to be correct for either cars or a re-stamp is going to be discovered by those in the know.
If someone was to attempt to re-stamp and misrepresent things as numbers matching they will need to purchase the date coded components.

Finding these proper date coded items is going to be a hard time and money consuming venture.
After finding the proper components, one would have to have the old numbers machined off in a manner that is untraceable.
If one were to surface grind this area it could be noticeable that the area has been tampered with as too much material has been removed from the casting.
Then you need the proper font stamps and a go through the process of stamping the items.

After all of this covert activity has been completed, one could hope to market the car as numbers matching car and not be discovered.
I would consider the Superbird / Daytona community to be a pretty tight knit knowledgeable group that does not get misled very often.
If there is something that smells fishy my guess is that it will be aired rather quickly here.

After you mentioned your interest in the Superbird that came to auction last week, it didn't take long for the fact that it was involved in a significant accident to emerge.
Furthermore you are concerned about numbers matching and you didn't even know where these numbers were located on the various components.
My advice is to gain a bit more knowledge here and let the folks in the know assist you in making an educated and well thought out purchase.

Just my two cents.

By the way I will gladly purchase any decent authentic non-matching number Superbird and or '69 Daytona Charger for $50,000 and give you a 10% finders fee each and every time you send me one.

Sincerely Vic