loud ticking noise

[Tscott38]

Driving down the road the other day after driving for 10 minutes and up to temperature (going about 60) i notice a ticking noise from under the hood suddenly start.  Drove for a few more miles like this as I was on a highway in traffic trying to figure out what it was.  When I slowed down for a light, it stopped completely.  Starting it up 3 hours later and driving 15 miles home, it made no noises at all - perfectly normal.  3 days later I start it up (no noise) and drive about 5 miles and it appears again - this time louder and im only going 40. Put it in neutral and rev it lightly and it stops.  Then 30 seconds later it starts again.  Turn around and go home.  Its a loud tick, not a knock - from the top of engine I think.  I wasn't able to check the exhaust manifold for cracks but it really doesn't sound like that type of tick - could be wrong though.  Sounds more like its coming from the valves/rockers.  Couldn't tell if it was louder on one side or the other - just could hear it at both sides.   Its a 440 with the original manifolds and the engine does burn some oil - got some age on it, but still runs strong.  Its not abused, but driven regularly - sometimes hard.  I replaced the valve seals about 3000 miles ago to take care of an oil smoke at startup issue and the springs seemed OK - but I'm no expert there.    What could this be?

[XH29N0G]

Is your oil level OK? Sorry if I missed it in your post if you said.

[johnnycharger]

Can you take a video of it and post it? Might help determine it.

[Tscott38]

Oil Level was checked after the second time and it was low - couldn't tell how much as it was hot, so I put in 2 quarts - didn't make a difference in the noise.   I doubt it was 2 quarts low, I do check it and don't drive it that much, but even if it was I've been there before on other cars and filing them up has always made any tick stop. 

[72Charger72]

Sounds like a lifter going bad or collapsed. Sticking when it gets hot.

[RECHRGD]

Sounds like a lifter going bad or collapsed. Sticking when it gets hot.

  beat me to it........

[Tscott38]

In looking around for posts on collapse lifters I found this one ("Help - whats this noise" is the title) the noise I hear is exactly what I have- minus the exhaust leak.  The responders all identified two noises, as did I.  So, assuming I have a collapsed lifter, I need to replace it.  but how to identify which one is the next question. 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,119454.msg1482302.html#msg1482302

[crj1968]

there is a semi-decent chance you can free it up with some marvel mystery oil or similar- It has actually worked for me in the past

[72Charger72]

Its not that hard Im sure there are plenty of you tubes on the process. Basically take off valve covers....manually rotate crank shaft and watch lifters ,rockers and push rods.
Eventually you should see one with a gap....thats your culprit. Now Im not a mechanic by profession but I would recommend replacing them all if you have to replace one...
Also when you replace them visually look for any bent push rods..sometimes they go hand in hand. And I hate to say it it could also be signs of a sticking valve.
Which of course is quite a bit more expensive to repair.

[johnnycharger]

In looking around for posts on collapse lifters I found this one ("Help - whats this noise" is the title) the noise I hear is exactly what I have- minus the exhaust leak.  The responders all identified two noises, as did I.  So, assuming I have a collapsed lifter, I need to replace it.  but how to identify which one is the next question. 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,119454.msg1482302.html#msg1482302

Yup. That's my video. The noise on mine would come and go. I figured I would swap all of the lifters out at some point but for now I added a quart of lucas oil stabililizer and it has been quiet ever since. 

[polywideblock]

use a LARGE screwdriver put the pointy end on your valve cover the handle to your ear it will let you pinpoint which side it is 
try it you'll be surprised what you can hear

[crj1968]

use a LARGE screwdriver put the pointy end on your valve cover the handle to your ear it will let you pinpoint which side it is  
try it you'll be surprised what you can hear

I thought the pointy end went in your ear?     

[polywideblock]

that's only if you've got an itchy brain   

[Tscott38]

thanks for all the replies.  I havent driven it more than just in and out of the garage and the noise comes and goes - sometimes its quiet.     Im going to try the marvel mystery oil thing first as I need an oil change anyway.  then new lifters if it continues.  I'll search around here for comments on who makes the best lifters- don't want to do it more than once.   

[68 RT]

Flex plate/converter bolts may be loose.

[John_Kunkel]

Or a sticky fuel pump lever, they make a tick like a lifter.

[Tscott38]

update - pulled all lifters out - one has a spongy plunger - when pushed with a screwdriver, it yields pretty good when compared to the other 15.  two others are also a little soft - the rest looked good.  no wear on the bottoms of any of them that i could tell.   

ordered new set of topline hylift johnsons as per the sticky note post - still good info by the way.   

one more question - the lifters i took out were a hair shorter than the stock ones 1.828" vs. the 1.900" original dimension.   they also looked different than the stocks - a lower and much wider oil band. "YL 79" was written in the oil band area.  I was unable to find any info on this lifter.  could the shorter lifter have caused any damage?

[Kern Dog]

The hydraulic type lifter has had many slight changes with all of the different companies that have made them. The oil band seems to be in different places, sometimes they are real thin. Lunati used to make a solid lifter with an oil band so wide, it looked like a dumbbell that weight lifters use to work out.


READ about cam and lifter BREAK IN procedures!!!

You MUST do this to ensure long life.

[PRH]

I would have taken apart the spongy lifter.
All it would take to create this problem is a tiny piece of debris in the check valve area.

Clean all the pieces, reassemble..... Submerge in oil and pump it up with a pushrod. If it pumps ups easily and firm, should be good to go.
No break in worries that way.

[birdsandbees]

A tick that isn't there cold and appears hot, probably a lifter. If it's the other way around it's usually a cracked exhaust manifold that once expanded with heat seals itself again.

As PRH states... take the lifter apart. No rocket science. Push down on the center, pop the retainer and let the plunger come up. Turn it upside down and take it apart. Clean and then blow through the top of the inner unit. It should blow air in that direction. It shouldn't blow anything from the bottom up. Reassemble, put in a paint cap of oil and depress the plunger and let it fill. A few pumps to get rid of air and it should go hard again.

[alfaitalia]

"A tick that isn't there cold and appears hot, probably a lifter"

I find its more usually the other way around....especially on a car that's not been started regularly. Even when they have as the lifters get older they can take time to pressurise and stop clicking....they just get stickier with age and need to warm up before the warmer thinner oil can do its job......start virtually any 80/90s VW with 50k plus on the clockfrom cold......click, click, click for a couple of minutes, sometimes rather longer or its permanent!

[Tscott38]

I replaced all the lifters.  The Followed breakin procedures like what's mentioned on this site too.  Still ticking after 20 minutes of running.   Confirmed it is not fuel pump rod as I removed it and started engine- still ticking.   It did get progressively quieter during the breakin.   Now I'm at a loss.   What else could it be?    The screwdriver test doesn't tell me much.   It still sound like it coming from under the valley tray.   

[PRH]

Is this a stock motor with a stock cam?

If the cam isn't stock, what is it?

[Tscott38]

I believe it's all stock.  Had it 22 years.   The old lifters showed no signs of unusual wear too.   

[PRH]

Does it sound like all/most of them are noisy, or only one or two?

If it's only one or two, might be a valve guide that's worn out.

When you had the rockers off, did you inspect the contact pad for excessive wear?
Same for the valve tips?

How's the oil pressure?

You said you replaced the seals........ Were the replacements the same style/type as what you took off?

There are a only so many things in the valvetrain that will cause ticking.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Was lifter preload  checked when assembled? Rocker tips checked for wear? Cam lobes inspected?

[Tscott38]

Sounds like it's coming from everywhere under the valley pan now.  I didn't notice anything unusual about the valve tips and the rockers seemed ok as well. But I'm not sure I knew what to look for.  Just wondering what the chances are that it'll get quieter if driven. It's only run for 20 minutes.  The cam lobes looked good and the wear marks seemed very normal.  I didn't rotate the engine so preload is unknown.     The old lifters all looked good though for wear.   I figured if they didn't have any wear the cam was ok as well.  Before I did anything though this noise was intermittent so I doubted anything was wrong with the valve train itself.  Thanks for the ideas. 

[PRH]

Oil pressure?

If you're relying on the factory gauge, I'd verify it's accuracy with a mechanical one before I went much farther.

What oil did you use?

Before you changed the lifters, did you try changing the oil and filter?

The lifters you took out were probably "VL 79", which was the TRW part number for a BB mopar lifter.......meaning they weren't original. They had been replaced before.

[Bad B-rad]

Well you said its under the valley tray now so it cant be a valve spring,But if the problem was intermittent, there are  only a few parts that can cause intermittent noises. I would have also started with the lifters, next I would check valves and springs. With valve covers off crank the engine with a remote starter button or have a buddy crank it over(pull coil wire so it wont start) and watch all the valves work look for problems there, make sure it all works/looks/sounds good and then you can scratch two things off the list
From what you described I would have bet it was the lifters. If you just changed them and used good zinc heavy oil,and broke them in correctly, I would doubt it is likely to just go away with more driving time if it didn't get better almost right away,when new lifters pumped up then I don't think its going to go away now.

[Tscott38]

oil pressure gauge showed 50-60 when started up cold, then when hot cruising 30-40   At idle it'll go down to 25.  when i re-did the gauges, the new gauge showed about the same - have never verified it with a mechanical gauge.  The engines definitely got some age on it.   

[Tscott38]

forgot to add - changed the oil with valvoline VR-1 10w -30 before the new lifters went in.  plenty of assembly lube was put on the lobes before i started it too.  When i changed the oil seals on the valves a year( 3000 miles) ago i replaced them with the umbrella type i've often seen mentioned on this site and it cleared up the smoking on startup issue right away. 

Sticking valve?

[PRH]

I don't see where you mentioned which part number lifters you bought.

There are "fast bleed" and "slow bleed" lifters available from Johnson.
The fast bleed lifters will make a little noise, so, depending on what you bought....... It could be "normal".

For a basically stock 440 with stock springs, etc, I would have used A-976's(assuming you're using 1968 and later style pushrods).

[Tscott38]

its a '67 motor (10/26/66 casting date), so after looking them up in Johnson's website and talking with the guy its was 812's that were called for.  I asked him what the difference between the 976's and 812's because from the dimensions and pictures on their site they appear identical - he said it was a small variation in the size of the oil band.  I didn't know to ask about fast or slow bleed. I measured my pushrods when they were out and while i don't have the dimensions in front of me now, i was comfortable that i'd seen several posts here that confirmed they were stock length for a 68.  I didnt think to look up if there were any variations in them from 67 to 68 though.

Its almost as if the noise has changed from a more isolated tapping under a valve cover to a more subtle and general tapping under the valley pan.

There was no noise at all when the previous lifters were not misbehaving though.   

[ACUDANUT]

Good info here 

[PRH]

The 67 pushrods have two different diameter ends.
The end the sits in the lifter is like 1/4", the rocker end is 5/16".

If you have pushrods that are the same on both ends(5/16"), then they are the 68 and later version, and you would also now have the wrong lifters to go with them.

Additionally, the two different styles are also a different length.
The 67-and earlier are 9.375", the 68-later are 9.315".

The real difference between the 812 and 976 is the pushrod cup.

812's fit 67 and earlier bb(with 67 and earlier style pushrods), 976's fit 68 and later bb(with 68 and later style pushrods).

The style of pushrods you have determines which lifters to run.

As near as I can tell by searching on the net, the "VL 79" style lifter crosses to the 976, not the 812.
Since it didn't have the OE lifters in it before, it's just as likely it didn't have the 67 style pushrods in it either.

I did a quick search....... At this point, if you have the wrong pushrods, those are what I would change.
I found some Sealed Power brand on eBay for about $38 for 8 pieces.
Part number RP-3034.
Those are what goes with the 812 lifters.

The pic on the summit site either isn't correct, or sealed power is using the wrong tip on one end. However the pic on most of the ebay listings shows the correct tip on the lifter end.

The Clevite number for the early pushrods is 215-4036.
The Melling number is MPR-151.

[Tscott38]

So you're thinking the 5/16 ball end on my 68 pushrods is not mating well to the 1/4 cups on my 67 lifters and that's where the noise could be coming from?  Or is it more the shorter length of the 68 (9.315) versus the 67 (9.375) where it is?  Either way - it sounds like a plan.  Thank You for your help and research here.  I never knew there were so many variations in lifters.  i'll get back in there and try it.       

PS - found my notes - the pushrods had identical ball cup ends - I think they were 5/16 diameter shafts but i didn't check it.  They were between 9 1/4" and 9 5/16" long, so when i saw several posts mentioning 9.315 is stock that's what I figured i had.  Since the dimension of the 812 and the 976 lifter were identical I figured i didn't have an issue when I bought them.  Live and learn.   

[PRH]

It's a 50 year old motor, and most of those have been apart before..... At least once.
A lot of people assume the parts for the various years are "all the same".
Some are, some aren't.

In your case..... They aren't.

The general rule to go by with these old motors/cars is..... Be as sure as you can of what you have before you order new parts.

Sounds like if you put some '67 style pushrods in it you'll be good to go.
And, you'll also know what you've got in there for future reference.

Not that this matters now, but I'm pretty sure after hearing that initial ticking, if you would have changed the oil and filter with some Brad Penn 15w40 or 20w50 the noise would have gone away.

[Tscott38]

changed out the pushrods with the Melling 151's for the 67 motor and all the noise is gone.  I should have noticed there was too much slop in the rockers when i put it back together the first time.  Thanks again for your help. 

[PRH]

I was wondering if you were going to change the pushrods.

Glad to hear you got it sorted out.

And now you know what's in there.