400 vs 440

[Charger1973]

My 73 Charger is a factory 400 2bbl car.  I want to build a bad ass motor for this car, numbers matching doesnt matter at all to me.  I have heard good things about the 400 but of course, everyone loves the 440.  Motors are not my best area, in fact I know very little about them...  So im looking for opinions.  Whats my best bet?  Whats the positives and negatives of each? 

[Ghoste]

The 400 is an exceptional base for a killer stroker combo.  But if you don't to spend a lot of money, the 440 is almost the perfect drag racing engine for a car like a Charger.
Pros and cons both really depend on how much you're willing to spend and what the bulk of your driving will realistically be.

[Charger1973]

I dont want to spend a fortune, just want something that will have more power than I would ever need on the street and sound mean as hell.  It will just be a fun car for nice days, not an all out drag car or anything like that

[AKcharger]

I'd say 400 as well but you will have to get into the engine and as a minimum get a new set of pistons. Go for a 440

[dodge freak]

I like 400's because of the short stroke - the shorter it is the higher it can rev. When the rpm's go up the motor takes in more air. A 400  at 7000 rpm is taking in more air - with the right cam ,than a 440 at 5500 rpm with a smaller cam.  On the down side you need 3.91- 4.10 or even higher gears in back, a bigger carb. Headers so it can breath, high compression so you can run a big cam right, then a msd 7 or better spark box to fire the plugs, roller rocker arms for those 7000 + rpms, better rods and other stuff I can't think of right now. I guess thats why the 440's everybody here likes, low cost, great power. But you have a 400 already, if its in good shape and has never been bored out for new pistons, I would keep it  if you are willing to put at least a 3.55 gears in back, and headers. You will have good power on the street, most of these new cars aren't as fast as they look & seem. If you don't drive much at 70 mph or higher-freeway driving mostly-you may  want higher gears, 3.91-4.10 to make up for the short stroke of the 400 motor. This going fast stuff can cost alot of money and time, but if it matters that much to you it can be done with what you have . I think that car is heavy so thats going to slow you down too. The dusters are much faster, but not so safe if you hit something.

[Bandit72]

if you end up using the 400, try to find a forged steel crank out of a 383...that is if you don't build a stroker...

later

[andyf]

Why not the best of both worlds?  Put a 440 crankshaft in your 400 block. That will give you 451 inches and it will still look like a 400.

[my73charger]

I had a 400 in my 73 Charger as well.  I briefly contemplated the 400 stroker but was told the machine work would break the bank (or at least my bank).  I found a 1967 440 and rebuilt it.  I love it.  Lots of power and torque for my needs.  Just remember if you decide on a 440 that the older 440 blocks were complete with a forged crank.  After about 71 they were cast cranks.  Try and find an older one with a good forged crank.

[Charger1973]

Im leaning towards the 440.  Its bigger, sounds like it would be cheaper in the long run, and everyone asks whats under the hood...  440 just sounds better than 400.  Whenever I mention it has a 400 everyone thinks its a chevy motor 

[my73charger]

Yeah, last night I was out for a cruise and a guy pulled up beside me all smiles asking what it had in it.  He assumed it had a 383 but I was real happy to say a 440 and he was all thumbs up after I told him.

[is_it_EVER_done?]

My suggestion would be to build a stroked 400 for the best, most affordable package. The 400 is a better, much stronger block than any 440 as it has shorter/stiffer cylinder walls, thicker/stronger main webs, bigger bore for reduced valve shrouding, lighter by 25 to 40 lbs., uses shorter/straighter intake manifolds, has better clearance for headers, increases hood clearance so a bigger air cleaner (or manifold) can be used, has smaller diameter main bearing which provide less drag, uses shorter/stiffer/lighter push rods, and because of all these factors it will make more power than an identical built 440 based engine, while being a much stronger structure.

The most cost effective, powerfull, and long lasting build would be a 3.915 stroke - 6.535 inch rod engine that will displace about 472 inches. This can be done for the same price as finding and building a 440. Also you can simplify the build by running lower compression (pump gas friendly), lower stall (cheaper) torque converter, eliminating the need for low rear end gears (which dramatically improves driavability and gas mileage),  all while producing more torque than all but the most radically built 440.

I suggest going to Brandons site 440source.com and check out his 3.915 inch stroke crank for the 400, and his I or H beam rods. The cost of buying and machining a stock steel crank is more than the cost of a new crank, and the same goes for rods. Plus if you did recondition the stock components, they will never be anywhere near as strong as 4340 steel parts, nor will they ever be anywhere near as durable or light. The rest of the build will be the same no matter which way you go as machining, rings, bearings, etc., cost the same.

As for why I suggest a 470 inch type build as opposed to a 500+ inch build, this is due to long term durability, while gaining most of the power of the larger build. The 470 type will maintain an "easy on the block and parts" rod ratio of about 1.7:1, and use a piston that is around 1.45 compression height (which is long enough to maintain good stability while being pretty light), the stroke increase will dramatically increase low end torque, while not pushing piston speeds to high (so that wear should not be increased, and the engine should last 100K+ miles), plus it will not requiring any additional machining, and can still use stock heads, rockers, etc., while producing big power.

[metallicareload99]

The most cost effective, powerfull, and long lasting build would be a 3.915 stroke - 6.535 inch rod engine that will displace about 472 inches. This can be done for the same price as finding and building a 440.  The 470 type will maintain an "easy on the block and parts" rod ratio of about 1.7:1, and use a piston that is around 1.45 compression height (which is long enough to maintain good stability while being pretty light)

For reference:  A 3.915" stroke crank with a 6.535" center to center rod would yield a rod ratio of about 1.67.

Using the 6.76" rod (with BB chubby 2.2" rod journal diameter) 440source.com lists would yield a ratio of about 1.727 with a 3.915" of stroke, though might result in a relatively short compression height of around 1.26".  Depending on final crank stroke, deck height, and how even you want the piston's top to be with the top of the block.

A 470 sounds like a terrific street engine, are there any drawbacks other than somewhat higher costs?  To those who have done this build, roughly how much more did the 470 build cost?  I would like to build one someday because of the many good points "is it EVER done?" brought up.  Also I believe the 400 based 470 has a lighter rotating assembly than a stock 360, and obviously out displaces the stock 440!  At around what compression height does long term durability and general stability become and issue?  How significant is the increased rod side clearance and what effects are there IF standard BBC rods are used?  There are rods out there with the BBC rod journal diameter and MoPar rod width though.  Not sure if you want to spend the $$ on a stroker though, good luck with what ever you decide.  Cool thread folks 

[RD]

If you are just going to drive it around, rebuild the 400.  Get a set of KB240 pistons; find a set of closed chambered heads (10.3 to 1 compression or thereabouts); get a good harmonic balancer SFI approved above 6,000 rpms just in case you want to push her hard someday; buy a 750 Edelbrock carb w/electric choke; run a Edelbrock Performer RPM intake; slap in a 284/484 purple camshaft w/lifter kit; use the cast crank, OEM rods, OEM rockers; buy a set of summit brand performance pushrods (cheap and durable); slap on a set of headman headers (cheap but good for the price); buy a 175K MP torque converter; slap on a milodon HV water pump; put on a new oil pump; and put in some 3.55  or 3.23 gears and FLOG THE LIVING SHEIT OUT OF IT!  It will take it and perform good for you.  The cast crank is good up to 500 hp, so there is no need trying to find a forged one and waste money there.  If you have the engine internally balanced, make sure your converter has the converter weights taken off.

And there ya go!  A surefire recipe to smoke some ricers and have a good lopey sound.  Oh yeah, better gas mileage than a 440 with comparable parts to boot methinks.

I am sure some will disagree, but that is a reasonably cheap way of building a 400.  You can find most of the stuff on ebay for cheap. 

There are so many combos out there. The key thing is identifying exactly what you want and go from there.  Do your research, become an informed consumer before you jump into a rebuild.  It is all about the planning.  Good luck.

[andyf]

I had a low deck 470 in my car for several years.  Made a lot of power with the Eddy heads even with the stock HP exhaust manifolds.  I wrote several articles on that motor, some of them still floating around out on the Comp Cam web page.  I did that motor back before there were stroker kits available.  It didn't cost all that much to build and these days it would be even cheaper.

[Nacho-RT74]

Im leaning towards the 440.  Its bigger, sounds like it would be cheaper in the long run, and everyone asks whats under the hood...  440 just sounds better than 400.  Whenever I mention it has a 400 everyone thinks its a chevy motor 

if that's you think, then will be better surprise them with a 400 engine BUT STROKED  to get more power than a stock 440. You need to say OH IS JUTS A 400  without tell IS A STROKED 400 on to 451... a complete and perfect sleeper hehehe. Paint it stock and keep it stroke from exterior hehehe.

after say them that yo can ask  DO YOU WANT A RACE ? they will tell you OH YES OF COURSE...and they will get a nice rear end view of your car .

That stroke only needs HP pistons... rest just with stock parts hehehe.

[MOPARHOUND!]

Cruising season has begun, so cruise in your car with the 400 you have for now.

In the meantime, buy a 440 and build it how you want it. 

Then, swap engines over a weekend.

Keep it simple, and reliable, go with the 440.

(If you want to stroke something, and have the extra $$$, put a 4.50 crank in a 440 block, about 540 cid.  Now available economically for $549.00 at http://www.440source.com/crankshafts.htm .  Use 7.10" H-beam rods, $359.95 at http://www.440source.com/rods.htm (1.58 rod ratio, but millions of big block Chebbies are running less that that), and spend the extra $100 for custom pistons over what the stroker pistons cost anyway.)

[Charger1973]

Cruising season has begun, so cruise in your car with the 400 you have for now.

In the meantime, buy a 440 and build it how you want it. 

Then, swap engines over a weekend.

Well my car is in the process of being stripped down to a shell and the bodywork hasnt even begun yet... So im just tryin to plan ahead.  I dont want to build multiple motors and the 400 needs rebuilt if I keep it anyway, so thats why im trying to decide now whether or not to look for a 440 block or just stick with the 400. 

[sixty6charger]

I love the 440, who doesn't but if i had a 400 sitting in front of me I'd stroke it... does that sound perverted... I know I guy I see at a cruise-in and he stroked his 400... there I go again... to 483 and it's a screamer!!! He actually twisted the driveshaft on launch at the strip with drag tres. I think he may have purchased the kit from 440source.com. It is a bit pricey but for what you spend on a 440+ the rebuild and parts its a deal
I'm not an expert on engines but i pay attention sometimes as to what things cost and what people do.

[is_it_EVER_done?]

Most everyone believes that stroking the 400 is more expensive. This just isn't so. If Charger73 had a steel crank 440 engine laying around that would be one thing, and would probably/possibly be the most cost effective way to go, but since he would have to find and buy one, the cost of stroking the 400 is not only going to be cheaper, but far far stronger in both power and strength/durability.

A cast crank engine is certainly strong enough to handle most any amount of power you want to throw at it, but unless you want to be stuck with a 35 year old damper, and a 'close but not perfect' balance of the torque converter, it will need to be internally balanced. This can be done, but only with two to three slugs of Malory metal which will add a couple hundred dollars to the price, couple that with another couple hundred for magnifluxing, checking for straightness, and turning a stock crank and you now have as much invested as the cost of a new stroker crank which has radiused journals, is made from 4340 steel, fresh machine work, and is many times stronger than even a steel stock crank.

Rods follow the same scenario. Again, magnifluxing, checking for straightness and twist, resizing, adding good rod bolts and maybe bushings if you are going to use floating pin pistons, makes using stock rods not even an option anymore as you can buy 4340 H or I beams, with ARP bolts, for much less that reconditioning stock rods, and the strength difference is so vast that it's pretty much immeasurable. Plus a new H or I can use the 2.2 Chevy size bearing which provides a smaller diameter for reduced drag, better internal clearance, and a much larger selection of sizes/materials/styles than was ever offered for the Mopar size, plus they are cheaper. The smaller/lighter .990 diameter wrist pin also allows more flexibility in piston dome/dish design, ring pack spacing and allows for a shorter compression height without putting the oil ring over the wrist pin.

I already pointed out the benefits of a 400 based engine over a 440 based one (which is considerable), but let me also point out that 400 blocks are still readily available in junk yards for cheap, whereas 440 engines are getting as hard to find as a good woman!

All the other parts, pieces and machining cost the same no matter what components are going into the final assembly, so a stroker costing more is simply a myth!

A couple of other points to others: I really don't want to criticize, but it's easy to say "GET - FIND - PICK UP - BUY" or other suggestion. This is never as easy to do as it is to say, and there is a cost involved! Whether it be a 440, different heads or whatever, there is always a hassle and cost factor in obtaining the item. I too am guilty of this sometimes, but unless we offer a source and approximate price for said item, it's really not a usefully suggestion no matter how good the intentions.

Lastly, suggestions that are unworkable or impossible are no help at all! A 4.5" crank with 7.1" rods in a 440 block would require a piston with a 1.12" or less compression height. It may be possible to have a set made that is this short, but realistically it is an unworkable suggestion. Piston stability would be non existent, piston speeds would be ridiculously high, cylinder and ring wear would be measured in hours instead of miles, and would have a compression ratio requiring the best race gas, or maybe even alcohol with stock open chamber heads (which would save money by not needing a rev limiter as I doubt the engine would be able to rev over about 4500 RPM with stock heads). Plus it would require an external oil pick-up system, substantial block grinding for clearance, and would be as dependable/stable as a live hand grenade with the pin pulled! -- COME ON!  Since the man asked a legitimate question with specific parameters, and even went so far as to explain that he has little experience with engines, he deserves realistic suggestions! How would you feel if his next post was " I bought all the parts you suggested and am looking forward to getting my engine built"?  Sorry for the attack, but please post based on the question and as though it was your own money you are spending.

[mikepmcs]

This should do it

[MOPARHOUND!]

Lastly, suggestions that are unworkable or impossible are no help at all! A 4.5" crank with 7.1" rods in a 440 block would require a piston with a 1.12" or less compression height.

Show me your math.

The most cost effective, powerfull, and long lasting build would be a 3.915 stroke - 6.535 inch rod engine that will displace about 472 inches.

Compression height of the piston for the combination you are suggesting??

[is_it_EVER_done?]

First, I apologize for being so harsh. It's not really in my nature to be so critical.

Second, Your question forced me to use a calculator instead of my head, and I see what your point is. I made a mistake in the compression hight of the 4.5" by 7.1" rod combos compression height for the piston, which should be in the 1.3X range, instead of the 1 .1X range that I calculated, however though I admit I made a mistake in estimating compression height, My premise and point still stand, as the combo you suggest must use an external oil system, has extremely high piston speeds, and would overpower stock heads from a flow standpoint, while not being able to provide piston stability, and requiring a compression ratio that can never be supported on pump gas. All which renders the build unusable as far as the posts initial question is concerned.

All that aside, I apologize for the error, but it doesn't change my point in any way. In the future, I will calculate out the math instead of estimates prior to posting. Thank you for pointing out the error.

[mikepmcs]

First, I apologize for being so harsh. It's not really in my nature to be so critical.

Second, Your question forced me to use a calculator instead of my head, and I see what your point is. I made a mistake in the compression hight of the 4.5" by 7.1" rod combos compression Eighth for the piston, which should be in the 1.3X range, instead of the 1 .1X range that I calculated, however though I admit I made a mistake in estimating compression height, My premise and point still stand, as the combo you suggest must use an external oil system, has extremely high piston speeds, and would overpower stock heads from a flow standpoint, while not being able to provide piston stability, and requiring a compression ratio that can never be supported on pump gas. All which renders the build unusable as far as the posts initial question is concerned.

All that aside, I apologize for the error, but it doesn't change my point in any way. In the future, I will calculate out the math instead of estimates prior to posting. Thank you for pointing out the error.

[mikepmcs]

First, I apologize for being so harsh. It's not really in my nature to be so critical.

Second, Your question forced me to use a calculator instead of my head, and I see what your point is. I made a mistake in the compression hight of the 4.5" by 7.1" rod combos compression height for the piston, which should be in the 1.3X range, instead of the 1 .1X range that I calculated, however though I admit I made a mistake in estimating compression height, My premise and point still stand, as the combo you suggest must use an external oil system, has extremely high piston speeds, and would overpower stock heads from a flow standpoint, while not being able to provide piston stability, and requiring a compression ratio that can never be supported on pump gas. All which renders the build unusable as far as the posts initial question is concerned.

All that aside, I apologize for the error, but it doesn't change my point in any way. In the future, I will calculate out the math instead of estimates prior to posting. Thank you for pointing out the error.

oops forgot my post,
You guys are wicked smaaat! As we say in Maine   But i'm guessing this won't help the gentleman that asked the original question. :ahum:l.    Now both of you shake hands and crack a Milwaukees Best Light on me

[Charger1973]

OK you guys really do know your stuff and this topic is alot more popular than I would have expected.  Really im lost when it comes to motors though.  I can change a motor, but tearing into one is a totally different story.  The furthest I have gone was to change intake/carb or valve covers so all the numbers really dont make much sense to me...

So basically what you guys are saying is that for less than it would cost, to buy and rebuild a 440...  I could take my original 400 block and build it, and it would be stronger, more powerful, more durable, and get better gas mileage than the 440? 

A second question is this, I have heard you will run into troubles with headers hitting other things in the engine bay and so on with the shorter block of the 400 as opposed to the 440.  Is there any truth to this and if so what all kind of problems will I run into?  Its a 73 Charger and this is the factory block.

[sixty6charger]

A second question is this, I have heard you will run into troubles with headers hitting other things in the engine bay and so on with the shorter block of the 400 as opposed to the 440.  Is there any truth to this and if so what all kind of problems will I run into?  Its a 73 Charger and this is the factory block.

Well, I have a 440 in my car (1966) and the headers are a pain in the a$$ when putting the engine in and taking out! Chances are you'll need to dimple them to give some clearance. If you have power steering it makes it worse than not having it, but I'll assume you have it. Don't know if a 400 would make a difference. I'm incline to say no.

[andyf]

Well headers can be a big pain so that is one thing to research before you make a decision.  Some vendors have low deck headers (383, 400) and other vendors have RB headers (440 blocks).

The other option is to run HP manifolds and forget the headers.  I've run HP manifolds on stroker motors before for street cars and it works just fine.  My last combination (low deck 466 with Eddy heads) made more RWHP than a new Viper yet was nice and quiet with the manifolds and ran on pump gas.

[MOPARHOUND!]

So basically what you guys are saying is that for less than it would cost, to buy and rebuild a 440...  I could take my original 400 block and build it, and it would be stronger, more powerful, more durable, and get better gas mileage than the 440? 

That is not what I am saying.  I repeat, keep it simple, and reliable, build a 440.

Pros and cons?  The short version of the 451 cons:

B main crank spec's are inferior to RB main crank spec's (look 'em up).  IMO, the used cut down 440 crank in a B engine will fail before the  440 block main saddles will fail.  Buy a new crank and cut it down?$$$  Anyone making over 600hp with a B engine?  If so, for how long?  The difference in reduced drag is nearly inconsequential in a street engine, and in a race engine you would gain what, .0001 off the elapsed time?

B intakes are inferior to RB intakes.  Relatively speaking, poor plenum volume for the cid being fed, tunnel ram and cut the hood?$$$, stage VI heads, to allow use of RB intake?$$$.

B block's cylinders distort more than RB block's cylinders (theory says otherwise, however real world experience proves it).  RB wins the longevity race on this count.

B block 451 requires a piston/wrist pin spec. with a greater tendency to rock in the bore than the RB, greater risk of oil consumption/blow by, longevity is decreased.  More than one report of premature oil burning.

451's have an application, in space limited A-body racecars, making 1/4 mile passes one at a time, and being torn down periodically. 

Can you build a moderate 451 B engine for street driving on weekends and it survive?  Yes.  I wouldn't, better alternatives.

Besides, you can build the the 440 even bigger at a later date, if funds allow.

(By the way, RPM stands for Ruins Peoples Motors.)

[firefighter3931]

So basically what you guys are saying is that for less than it would cost, to buy and rebuild a 440...  I could take my original 400 block and build it, and it would be stronger, more powerful, more durable, and get better gas mileage than the 440? 

That is not what I am saying.  I repeat, keep it simple, and reliable, build a 440.

Pros and cons?  The short version of the 451 cons:

B main crank spec's are inferior to RB main crank spec's (look 'em up).  IMO, the used cut down 440 crank in a B engine will fail before the  440 block main saddles will fail.  Buy a new crank and cut it down?$$$  Anyone making over 600hp with a B engine?  If so, for how long?  The difference in reduced drag is nearly inconsequential in a street engine, and in a race engine you would gain what, .0001 off the elapsed time?

B intakes are inferior to RB intakes.  Relatively speaking, poor plenum volume for the cid being fed, tunnel ram and cut the hood?$$$, stage VI heads, to allow use of RB intake?$$$.

B block's cylinders distort more than RB block's cylinders (theory says otherwise, however real world experience proves it).  RB wins the longevity race on this count.

B block 451 requires a piston/wrist pin spec. with a greater tendency to rock in the bore than the RB, greater risk of oil consumption/blow by, longevity is decreased.  More than one report of premature oil burning.

451's have an application, in space limited A-body racecars, making 1/4 mile passes one at a time, and being torn down periodically. 

Can you build a moderate 451 B engine for street driving on weekends and it survive?  Yes.  I wouldn't, better alternatives.

Besides, you can build the the 440 even bigger at a later date, if funds allow.

(By the way, RPM stands for Ruins Peoples Motors.)

Well said Hound  100% !

B-engines for racing....RB engines for street/strip. Big ole Chargers have tons of room in the engine bay.....no need to squeeze a small engine in there.  Lots of header choices that fit the chassis w/o clearance issues. A 440 just looks "right' in there.

Ron

[my73charger]

As for the headers situation.  I have had both blocks hooked up to headers.  They are very tight but do fit with very little tweaking.  I have used the same headers with both blocks.  Hedman Elite headers.  I have power steering and had to put one dimple in for that but relatively little trouble.  Other than that I have had no trouble with headers.  I spent $4500 on building my 440.  That inlcuded buying the block, having everything balanced, new damper, bored over .060 Speed Pro forged pistons 10.3 to 1 compression, comp cam.  Had the stock heads worked over.  Had a machine shop do everything including the complete assembly less the bolt ons.