Six pack bog

[fizz]

FWIW, 2 weekends ago went and put 500 miles on going to mopars in the park. Super happy w engine/trans on hiway, cruises @ 80mph, 2600 rpm in overdrive, about 14 mpg . Cruise and WOT at seems crisp and responsive. Not so happy with stop light idle and coming off throttle. Cold starts still sucked. Yesterday bushed all the throttle shaft bores and added a center carb metering block set up for my engine from Promax. Hit the key, started and idled like a champ. Test drive tonight, looks like I'm getting there.

[b5blue]

Glad to hear it's sorted out. 

[fizz]

I took my car to a chassis dyno tuner to check my work and fine tune it with air/fuel guage. In the process I asked him to reset the valves.
Turns out the lifters are shot. Cam is a Lunati hyd roller lifter .560 lift 243/251 duration. He suspects that the valve springs are too light. I can't tell you what they are because my engine builder doesn't know what they are. Heads are stealth. We are going to change the springs out to the Lunati recommended ones.
Considering switching out the hyd roller lifters to solid roller lifters, we are seeing if Lunati agrees.
What do you guys think?

[theseoldcars]

No expert, but I'd be inclined to stick with the hydraulic ones unless the cam and rest of the setup really necessitates it.

[BLK 68 R/T]

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-0510-solid-rollers-on-hydraulic-cams/

[fizz]

Lunati came back and ok'd plan to use solid lifters with this cam, .003 lash. so, new lifters and springs on the way.

[BLK 68 R/T]

Lunati came back and ok'd plan to use solid lifters with this cam, .003 lash. so, new lifters and springs on the way.

.003 lash. With aluminum heads that seems awfully tight. I will wait for others with more engine knowledge to chime in on the matter. Pretty sure you will need to order new push rods as well. Solid rollers are shorter than hyd ones so you will need longer push rods IIRC.

[fizz]

Could be. Lunati made us believe not. Story of this project, get parts, order more. I wonder if I could make something out of a pair of Warped fabricated valve covers, 32 roller lifters, 32 expensive push rods, 16 valve springs, a brake master cylinder and booster, a billet crane cam, billet distributer, and an $850 modernized 8 track radio. All new junk.

[BLK 68 R/T]

I gotta ask, so your hyd roller lifters? what led your mechanic to the conclusion that they are bad? doesn't seem like they have been in that long correct?

[fizz]

I was having him readjust the valves, always a little noisy. Says when adjusting preload they were mushy, or collapsed. He thinks springs were too light, and lifters failed because of it.

[BLK 68 R/T]

I was having him readjust the valves, always a little noisy. Says when adjusting preload they were mushy, or collapsed. He thinks springs were too light, and lifters failed because of it.

That is what they are supposed to do though. Should be able to push the plunger down with hand pressure on them, they only get hard when there is oil pressure. How was your oil pressure when it was running? Lifter bore clearance could be an issue though. I would have your mechanic measure each lifter and the bore for each one, have him measure at 9 to 3 position and the 12 to 6 position in each bore. If the lifters all measure .904 diameter and all the lifter bores measure .905 to .9055 you should be good to go, if any of the bores measure more than .002 larger than the lifter itself you could have oil pressure issues that will cause issues with individual lifters or multiple ones depending on clearances. My guess is there is nothing wrong with your current lifters. Preload adjustment for hydraulic rollers should be made with the lifters roller wheel on the heel of the cam, turn adjusters on rockers in just until the pushrod will not rotate by rubbing your finger across it, then set the preload which is usually an additional 1/2 to 3/4 turn of the adjuster (the lifters instructions should specify,) then lock it down and move on to the next one.

[fizz]

Oil pressure was 60 plus cold, never below 40 hot.
I will ask him specifics on how he checked it. I should know anyway.

[BLK 68 R/T]

Ok, sounds good. On the noise part, that is to be expected with an adjustable valve train, as long as the noise is not excessive they will have some noise to them.

[firefighter3931]

With regards to a noisy valvetrain ; when using aluminum heads you need to account for expansion when setting lash or preload. The alloy heads grow more than a cast iron head when they reach operating temps. 

Some rocker arms are noisier than others as well. Synthetic oil will also increase valvetrain noise. There are many variables to consider. 


Ron

[fizz]

My education is expensive

[BSB67]

1) I doubt that the hyd lifters "failed". Now, are they a junk high performance product, and not working well......could be.....
2) You have a serious mechanic issue if he does not know what valve spring is in your motor
3) 0.003" (cold) is about where I would start.

[BLK 68 R/T]

My education is expensive

Lol, still cheaper than college. But I get what you mean. I too have a roller cam I bought for my motor only to find out later that I had no clue what I was doing and ended up having to order another one with completely different specs to match what I wanted to do with my motor. Live and learn 🙂

[fizz]

In regards to my mechanic, I indeed did have a serious problem with my original engine builder, which at this time, because of this I will reveal to be Sharadon Performance out of Hugo Mn.

We checked what we could with the pan off and think the short block is OK with decent parts. The valve train quite another. So far we replaced the crane cam/comp lifter combination, Those lifters definitely did fail. No resistance at all on some of the lifters when we adjusted them, that engine was really noisy. The cam they picked for me was too radical anyway so switched to a Lunati cam/lifter set. Hyd roller cause that's what Lunati recommended. I leaned hard for a solid roller lifter but Lunati talked me out of it.

After we got it running again I took it to TPIS from Chaska MN for chassis dyno tuning. Got it back running terrible, so I have done what I could with your guys help since, and seems OK.

Since I have little tuning experience, and have so much invested in this car, I decided to have it fined tuned on a Chassis dyno. At least this guy is close by and is a real car guy, albeit Ford, and seems thorough. He thought valve train was too noisy for hyd lifters so decided to adjust valves again. Which takes us to now.

So I will spend some more money, and hope for a decent outcome.

[Tom Q]

It is popular because the people that use it don't know any better.  And there are a lot of those people.
The people that do know better, don't use it.
You like to mention Tom's name frequently.  That seems important to you to mention.  I've met him too, as most long in the tooth enthusiasts have.

I get that because you are the caretaker, you are going to defend the document.  Myself and other might be a little more tolerant of the document's inaccuracies if the caretaker shared his personal history and experience with the six pack that support the claims and directives in the document and that supports himself and the document as truly a self made authority on the subject.

It reads like a poor compilation of some good, and not so good information that is not is not delivered in proper context or with appropriate qualifications.  Kinda like getting apple pie recipe from 12 people and using a little bit from each one.  That does not make it a good recipe or pie.

Hey Ron
Nothing to defend-it's about having and using the proper tools and information to have the car perform properly & safely. Everyone wants immediate excellence yet is willing to settle on mediocrity. Since you are so experienced at tuning six paks I want you post an  edited copy of the guide and explain the errors and inconsistencies to us dummies. I will be more than happy to correct any incorrect information and give you credit.  You opened your mouth so get your foot out of it.   

Note:  The processes defined in the guide are tested by another person whom is very good at tuning. He lives over on moparts. The whole idea of the guide is to assist people with the proper information. Other than that gasoline is still very flammable and you should have respect for it. Don't be stupid.

[BSB67]

if the caretaker shared his personal history and experience with the six pack that support the claims and directives in the document and that supports himself and the document as truly a self made authority on the subject.

It reads like a poor compilation of some good, and not so good information that is not is not delivered in proper context or with appropriate qualifications.  Kinda like getting apple pie recipe from 12 people and using a little bit from each one.  That does not make it a good recipe or pie.

.......I want you post an  edited copy of the guide and explain the errors and inconsistencies to us dummies. I will be more than happy to correct any incorrect information and give you credit.  You opened your mouth so get your foot out of it.   

No, Only if you ask nice, and you give us your personnel history and experience with the 6 pack.

And my name is Russ