K&K Insurance Daytona Charger Race Car

[Rajasthan77]

Hello Everyone,

I've been tossing around the idea of building a true clone of the K&K Insurance Daytona Charger, not just in appearance. I mean the chassis mods as well, everything. However, I can not find anything definitive on what Harry Hyde's team had done to the car, I've got a ton of pics, and noticed some really strange bracings on the floor pans, modifications to the front frame rails, bent tubing as shock tower, etc.. I'm just wondering, does anybody know, is there any definitive source that may have the exact modifications that were done to the original Charger or any true Nascar Daytona Charger? I've ordered about 6 books on Amazon that I'm waiting to come in, but I'm not sure yet if they will go to that level of detail, even maybe to steer me in the right direction from a B body's perspective in nailing that Nascar stance and functionality from the late 60's. Also, just to keep everyone's mind at ease, I will be looking for a real basket case if I do move forward with this and will not be hacking up anything nice.  I appreciate everyone's time, and any information that you may have, would greatly be appreciated. Thank you so much..   

[C500]

Hello Everyone,

I've been tossing around the idea of building a true clone of the K&K Insurance Daytona Charger, not just in appearance. I mean the chassis mods as well, everything. However, I can not find anything definitive on what Harry Hyde's team had done to the car, I've got a ton of pics, and noticed some really strange bracings on the floor pans, modifications to the front frame rails, bent tubing as shock tower, etc.. I'm just wondering, does anybody know, is there any definitive source that may have the exact modifications that were done to the original Charger or any true Nascar Daytona Charger? I've ordered about 6 books on Amazon that I'm waiting to come in, but I'm not sure yet if they will go to that level of detail, even maybe to steer me in the right direction from a B body's perspective in nailing that Nascar stance and functionality from the late 60's. Also, just to keep everyone's mind at ease, I will be looking for a real basket case if I do move forward with this and will not be hacking up anything nice.  I appreciate everyone's time, and any information that you may have, would greatly be appreciated. Thank you so much..   

I can't help with your question, but take my hat off to you if you go ahead with the plan. The K&K 'tona is a person fav. 

[RCCDrew]

Subscribed! I would love to see the chassis mods.

[Stevearino]

There is a member here called  Indygeneralee  that started a similar project and has a lot of information on the modifications done to the floor pan and the firewall of the car.. Also members  wing car builder and Aero 426 have a lot of historical knowledge. odcics2  has a lot of info also and here is a thread discussing a James Hylton car that turned out to be something else altogether.http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,119282.0.html

[TheAutoArchaeologist]

When it gets to a point, let me know.  I'll be down at Wellborns here in a few months.  I can get you info from the car.

[daytonalo]

were the  Nascar Chassis the same from say 67-71 for dodge ?

[Rajasthan77]

Hello Everyone,

I've been tossing around the idea of building a true clone of the K&K Insurance Daytona Charger, not just in appearance. I mean the chassis mods as well, everything. However, I can not find anything definitive on what Harry Hyde's team had done to the car, I've got a ton of pics, and noticed some really strange bracings on the floor pans, modifications to the front frame rails, bent tubing as shock tower, etc.. I'm just wondering, does anybody know, is there any definitive source that may have the exact modifications that were done to the original Charger or any true Nascar Daytona Charger? I've ordered about 6 books on Amazon that I'm waiting to come in, but I'm not sure yet if they will go to that level of detail, even maybe to steer me in the right direction from a B body's perspective in nailing that Nascar stance and functionality from the late 60's. Also, just to keep everyone's mind at ease, I will be looking for a real basket case if I do move forward with this and will not be hacking up anything nice.  I appreciate everyone's time, and any information that you may have, would greatly be appreciated. Thank you so much..   

I can't help with your question, but take my hat off to you if you go ahead with the plan. The K&K 'tona is a person fav. 

Thank you, it's mine too. Just has an aura about it I can't shake. There is a vid on youtube where they took the original around Atlanta Speedway in Oct 2015, it was just awesome. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ybZm341MkE.  It gives you a bit of anxiety watching it, as you want to just stretch it's legs a bit more, but through the whole video, just seems like that beast wants to get up and run!   

[Rajasthan77]

Subscribed! I would love to see the chassis mods.

Thank you! Hopefully I won't royally screw it up! 

[Rajasthan77]

There is a member here called  Indygeneralee  that started a similar project and has a lot of information on the modifications done to the floor pan and the firewall of the car.. Also members  wing car builder and Aero 426 have a lot of historical knowledge. odcics2  has a lot of info also and here is a thread discussing a James Hylton car that turned out to be something else altogether.http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,119282.0.html

Thank you so much for the information! I really appreciate it!!

[Rajasthan77]

When it gets to a point, let me know.  I'll be down at Wellborns here in a few months.  I can get you info from the car.

Thank you very much!! My B-in-law and me have a trip planned too, to check it out, although he is a Chevy man, and I constantly have to hear how great Corvettes are  , I live in Jersey, so will be quite a ride with Chevy talk in my ear all the way down  .  I was planning on maybe emailing the museum ahead of time, to see if they would allow me to take some measurements/detailed photos as well, not sure if they would go for that, but thought doesn't hurt to try.

[Rajasthan77]

were the  Nascar Chassis the same from say 67-71 for dodge ?

I'm not entirely sure about that, but I believe you maybe right. At least, I have a ton of photos of the Daytona Charger front frame rail modifications and also came across one for a 71 Charger Nascar restoration, in which the frame mods looked almost identical as far as shock tower. there was some differences where the fenders would be hung etc obviously. But I was still pleasantly surprised about that one, as it could still be used as a template I guess. I will know more, once my Amazon order comes in though! I'm hoping the books I ordered will have a ton of information. Thank you!

[Aero426]

I will not say it is impossible.  But this is not an easy project.  Someone on Facebook was talking about doing the same thing.

Even if you duplicate the unibody modifications, a major problem is the lack of available original parts.  You really need the original suspension parts to get the right stance.  Nothing from the firewall forward is readily available.  All the suspension, k frame, steering parts and brakes deviate from stock.  Even something as mundane sounding as correct wheels are a big problem.  There are people trying to restore real cars that cannot find what they need.

[Aero426]

were the  Nascar Chassis the same from say 67-71 for dodge ?

Not the same, but you could say they evolved from the original basic design.  64-65 are similar.  66-67 was the next generation.  68 through 70 was the next major jump. Each of those three years have different nuances to the same basic platform.  Many older cars were rebodied with updated metal.  A lot more cutting and pasting was done to the 68 and newer cars. Bodies could be cut away from the floors and repositioned.

[Rajasthan77]

I will not say it is impossible.  But this is not an easy project.  Someone on Facebook was talking about doing the same thing.

Even if you duplicate the unibody modifications, a major problem is the lack of available original parts.  You really need the original suspension parts to get the right stance.  Nothing from the firewall forward is readily available.  All the suspension, k frame, steering parts and brakes deviate from stock.  Even something as mundane sounding as correct wheels are a big problem.  There are people trying to restore real cars that cannot find what they need.

Thank you so much for the insight!! I guess I'll take it as far and as close as possible then. Will definitely make sure I do my research though ahead of time.

[Beep Beep Dave]

I was just curious to what your budget was going to be for such a project?

Dave

[Daytona R/T SE]

Hello Everyone,

I've been tossing around the idea of building a true clone of the K&K Insurance Daytona Charger, not just in appearance. I mean the chassis mods as well, everything. However, I can not find anything definitive on what Harry Hyde's team had done to the car, I've got a ton of pics, and noticed some really strange bracings on the floor pans, modifications to the front frame rails, bent tubing as shock tower, etc.. I'm just wondering, does anybody know, is there any definitive source that may have the exact modifications that were done to the original Charger or any true Nascar Daytona Charger? I've ordered about 6 books on Amazon that I'm waiting to come in, but I'm not sure yet if they will go to that level of detail, even maybe to steer me in the right direction from a B body's perspective in nailing that Nascar stance and functionality from the late 60's. Also, just to keep everyone's mind at ease, I will be looking for a real basket case if I do move forward with this and will not be hacking up anything nice.  I appreciate everyone's time, and any information that you may have, would greatly be appreciated. Thank you so much..  

You should start by buying this:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,125110.0.html

[500Jon]

Good luck with the build!

Maybe, just maybe, enough peeps will get the bug too and,,,
All the knowledgeable Folks will help recreate the tricky parts for you and others too...
Why's that you ask?
Well its time for RETRO NASCAR and Dodge/Plymouth to be doing some track appearances again.
No, NOT in a cobbled up FOUR DOOR family car but a nearly 60 year old ROCKET-SHIP!!!

Before all us old farts are layed in the ground, wouldn't it be good to see a modern chassised Nascar with a Daytona or SuperBird body, racing again in ANGER!!!
Racing at 200mph just like in 69 and 70 all over again...

They don't even need hemi's as the modern 360 Nascar engine will be more than enough.

YeP, I'm only dreaming of a bygone era, like alot of Folks I bet?

Until that happens I will be smoking my tyres with my real C500, lol.

GOD BLESS AMERICA and 60's NASCARS!!!

ps looked better before the wing and nosecone...

[Rajasthan77]

Good luck with the build!

Maybe, just maybe, enough peeps will get the bug too and,,,
All the knowledgeable Folks will help recreate the tricky parts for you and others too...
Why's that you ask?
Well its time for RETRO NASCAR and Dodge/Plymouth to be doing some track appearances again.
No, NOT in a cobbled up FOUR DOOR family car but a nearly 60 year old ROCKET-SHIP!!!

Before all us old farts are layed in the ground, wouldn't it be good to see a modern chassised Nascar with a Daytona or SuperBird body, racing again in ANGER!!!
Racing at 200mph just like in 69 and 70 all over again...

They don't even need hemi's as the modern 360 Nascar engine will be more than enough.

YeP, I'm only dreaming of a bygone era, like alot of Folks I bet?

Until that happens I will be smoking my tyres with my real C500, lol.

GOD BLESS AMERICA and 60's NASCARS!!!

ps looked better before the wing and nosecone...

Lol thank you Sir!  Originally I was looking for a modern Nascar chassis or something similar to skin a charger body on as you had mentioned. I didn't realize but there are quite a few here and there you can get for not to expensive (years: 2003, 2004), but given the wheel base and width, I thought it might look stupid and definitely wouldn't feel the same. I definitely wouldn't want to shorten the charger body to match the wheel base, and trying to stretch the modern nascar body with all the tubing that's on their would be a nightmare and I would think kill the integrity of the chassis.  I have my 69 Charger that's in my avatar pic and a 2012 Challenger R/T with 648 Rwhp. One thing I have noticed is I LOVE Driving the Charger a thousand times more than the Challenger which is a beast in it's own right, but I hate the Challenger for some reason. Maybe its the control aspect? Maybe it's the sloppy shifter. I'm really not sure, the modern challenger is like an Arabian horse, and the old Charger is like a bucking bronco. definitely the bucking bronco is more thrill orientated, at least to me. I know some people like the modern stuff, but I'm still trying to love it. Every time I stare at it, I think dmnnn I could have gotten another classic B-Body for it. lol.. I did not grow up in the time to see the aero cars rule Nascar, but I still have grown to love them. Another iconic Daytona Charger that I love is Big Willie's Duke and Duchess drag car, but my 69 Charger is pretty much a drag car already, so the K&K Insurance Charger would be definitely more involved, but I think way worth it and such a different experience.  A few years ago I got a ride in an original un-restored 69 Hemi R/T 4 spd Charger that was such a surreal experience, patina and everything ripping down Route 22 East here. The owner had just pulled the car out of storage and the carb wasn't tuned properly so he kept having to stab the gas at a light to keep it from dying, but he handled it like a pro and never stalled it once. It was just another day in the office to him lol.. and such a nice experience for me that I probably will never get again.  There is just something about classic Mopars which I'm sure everyone here feels.

[Rajasthan77]

Hello Everyone,

I've been tossing around the idea of building a true clone of the K&K Insurance Daytona Charger, not just in appearance. I mean the chassis mods as well, everything. However, I can not find anything definitive on what Harry Hyde's team had done to the car, I've got a ton of pics, and noticed some really strange bracings on the floor pans, modifications to the front frame rails, bent tubing as shock tower, etc.. I'm just wondering, does anybody know, is there any definitive source that may have the exact modifications that were done to the original Charger or any true Nascar Daytona Charger? I've ordered about 6 books on Amazon that I'm waiting to come in, but I'm not sure yet if they will go to that level of detail, even maybe to steer me in the right direction from a B body's perspective in nailing that Nascar stance and functionality from the late 60's. Also, just to keep everyone's mind at ease, I will be looking for a real basket case if I do move forward with this and will not be hacking up anything nice.  I appreciate everyone's time, and any information that you may have, would greatly be appreciated. Thank you so much..  

You should start by buying this:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,125110.0.html

Whewwwwww!! That is definitely nice, but given this is a clone and I am not loaded, I may go the re-pop route for the body pieces. Thank you though!

[Rajasthan77]

I was just curious to what your budget was going to be for such a project?

Dave

Well I'm hoping to get the basket donor for under 8K. and I will be doing all the metal work and mechanical work. The only thing I can imagine costing me a ton of money (if everything goes as planned) is the paint job and a Hemi motor (this may get a 440 instead for awhile). I did paint my Charger with a single stage summit flat black, which I'm proud of, but being it was flat black, I'm not sure if that's why it came out nicer than I expected. So I'll probably farm that out. So I'm hoping with Hemi motor to be at around 35K max, without Hemi motor around 20K max.  I guess it comes also down to opportunity cost of your dollar. I won't be spending all the money at once either, I'm sure it would take me quite awhile to get it done. So I may start looking at it in that way and exceed budget, by thinking o.k. well I only spent this much this month, not so bad, but if added altogether from beginning, could be a crap load of money.  If anyone thinks that is a naïve estimate, please let me know. I would love to hear.

[CornDogsCharger]

If you decide to follow through with this project, I will really enjoy watching the progress.  I actually thought about doing the same thing with an old parts car '69 Charger that I had.  I wasn't going to build a Daytona though... I was going to go with the cheaper/Charger500 route.  There was a member here (and on Moparts) looking for a similar project car to build as a race car... and I had plenty of projects already, so I traded it.  I look forward to watching your build. 

Justin
"CornDog"

[Daytona R/T SE]

I was just curious to what your budget was going to be for such a project?

Dave

Well I'm hoping to get the basket donor for under 8K. and I will be doing all the metal work and mechanical work. The only thing I can imagine costing me a ton of money (if everything goes as planned) is the paint job and a Hemi motor (this may get a 440 instead for awhile). I did paint my Charger with a single stage summit flat black, which I'm proud of, but being it was flat black, I'm not sure if that's why it came out nicer than I expected. So I'll probably farm that out. So I'm hoping with Hemi motor to be at around 35K max, without Hemi motor around 20K max.  I guess it comes also down to opportunity cost of your dollar. I won't be spending all the money at once either, I'm sure it would take me quite awhile to get it done. So I may start looking at it in that way and exceed budget, by thinking o.k. well I only spent this much this month, not so bad, but if added altogether from beginning, could be a crap load of money.  If anyone thinks that is a naïve estimate, please let me know. I would love to hear.

A bare steel street car style reproduction nose cone is close to $8,000.

A cast aluminum reproduction street car style wing is about $2,500.

When you say the word "Hemi" that means $20,000 +

The basic project car itself will set you back $10,000.

You're already $5500 past your "Max" budget, and you haven't turned a wrench...


Still want to play ?

[RallyeMike]

As far as costs go, when you say "true clone", does that mean vintage Nascar gear incorporated into the car? That stuff is hard to come by and $$$.

If you decide to move forward, I'll certainly be cheering you on.

[Rajasthan77]

I was just curious to what your budget was going to be for such a project?

Dave

Well I'm hoping to get the basket donor for under 8K. and I will be doing all the metal work and mechanical work. The only thing I can imagine costing me a ton of money (if everything goes as planned) is the paint job and a Hemi motor (this may get a 440 instead for awhile). I did paint my Charger with a single stage summit flat black, which I'm proud of, but being it was flat black, I'm not sure if that's why it came out nicer than I expected. So I'll probably farm that out. So I'm hoping with Hemi motor to be at around 35K max, without Hemi motor around 20K max.  I guess it comes also down to opportunity cost of your dollar. I won't be spending all the money at once either, I'm sure it would take me quite awhile to get it done. So I may start looking at it in that way and exceed budget, by thinking o.k. well I only spent this much this month, not so bad, but if added altogether from beginning, could be a crap load of money.  If anyone thinks that is a naïve estimate, please let me know. I would love to hear.

A bare steel street car style reproduction nose cone is close to $8,000.

A cast aluminum reproduction street car style wing is about $2,500.

When you say the word "Hemi" that means $20,000 +

The basic project car itself will set you back $10,000.

You're already $5500 past your "Max" budget, and you haven't turned a wrench...


Still want to play ?

You are right! I had no idea the re-pop of the front nose cone was that much, but I'm a glass is half full kind of guy. If i need to save some money and get a rusty basic project car to bring me down a bit from your 10K estimate, I will do so. I had priced out a hemi about 5 years or so back and tallied the parts right around 13.5K minus machining. I did not know they have gone up so much, but in either case, if I need to deal with a 440 for awhile then so be it.  Another thing is, Im' not shelling out the money all at once, and I do have some other projects I could get rid of to free up some cash if needed in a bind.  The end result is, when you want something, come hell or high water, your going to plow through with it until you get it, or learn yourself it's not obtainable.  Maybe I'm stubborn like that and I do not doubt you are giving me sound advice and surely appreciate it. But to answer your question, yes I want this car, it may take me a few years to finish or a lifetime, but I am going to try my hardest to get it.   

[Rajasthan77]

As far as costs go, when you say "true clone", does that mean vintage Nascar gear incorporated into the car? That stuff is hard to come by and $$$.

If you decide to move forward, I'll certainly be cheering you on.

Hello, I was referring to true clone, meaning not just doing the body up in the paint scheme, but matching the chassis mods as well. Given some information I'm learning here, I can't even imagine how much vintage nascar parts would be. I guess this will test my fabrication abilities and will take it from there.

[Mike DC]

                                                     
Here's a NASCAR '69 Daytona lowering job.  Compare the same reference points on the bodywork (blue) to the wheels:




This job is way beyond torsion bar adjustments, trimmed bumpstops, drop spindles, etc.  And the suspension work is not the whole story.  Even after the body is sitting this low, it puts the subframe rails too close to whacking the pavement underneath.  

The drivetrain (and trans tunnel) has to be raised up a few inches.  The subframe rails need to be trimmed down & plated up.  The inner fenderwells have to go.  The middle of the fender above the front wheel has to be mostly hand-rebuilt.  Etc.  The unibody needs structure added above the floors to recover the strength/stiffness that was lost by trimming down the subframes below the floorpans. Etc.  

   

[Rajasthan77]

                                                     
Here's a NASCAR '69 Daytona lowering job.  Compare the same reference points on the bodywork (blue) to the wheels:




This job is way beyond torsion bar adjustments, trimmed bumpstops, drop spindles, etc.  And the suspension work is not the whole story.  Even after the body is sitting this low, it puts the subframe rails too close to whacking the pavement underneath.  

The drivetrain (and trans tunnel) has to be raised up a few inches.  The subframe rails need to be trimmed down & plated up.  The inner fenderwells have to go.  The middle of the fender above the front wheel has to be mostly hand-rebuilt.  Etc.  The unibody needs structure added above the floors to recover the strength/stiffness that was lost by trimming down the subframes below the floorpans. Etc.  

   

Hi there, thank you so much for the information! I actually read through a thread you had a few years ago with IndyGenerallee and it was such great information that I've saved it. I've also emailed the museum to see if they would take some in-depth photos for me for a fee. I know it maybe a fat chance, but thought why not try, as it might alleviate some guessing work.  I will keep everyone posted!

[djcarguy]

           

[Mike DC]

Hi there, thank you so much for the information! I actually read through a thread you had a few years ago with IndyGenerallee and it was such great information that I've saved it. I've also emailed the museum to see if they would take some in-depth photos for me for a fee. I know it maybe a fat chance, but thought why not try, as it might alleviate some guessing work.  I will keep everyone posted!

Best of luck with the project. 

It would be fun to see somebody's NASCAR-replica Daytona pan out.  Indy's, your's, or anyone else's.  In recent years the idea seems to be gaining popularity.     
 

[Highbanked Hauler]

  Talk with the guy who has the replica red no.61 Superbird   ( was at Talladega and Welborns museum )  I am almost sure it has a  stock car front clip and suspension in it with a Franklin quick change rear. The roll cage is not vintage but it could be done differently in your car. Its worth a look if you are considering a build.