500" Stroker won't start

[ds440]

Hey guys, I need some help finding a solution to my brother's '69 that won't turn over.  We're pulling our hair out and are out of ideas.

It's a fresh engine build and complete restoration.  The car has a grand total of 600 miles (666 to be exact....no joke) and ran fine until one day it just wouldn't fire.  The engine is 500" stroker (400 block) with Edlebrock RPM heads, RPM Performer intake, ProForm carb, Pertronix electronic ignition, and an electric fuel pump. 

The original battery was reading 12.1 volts, a test read that it had a dead cell, and was replaced.  The starter relay has also been replaced.  He was using a Powermaster mini-starter and swapped it out with a DB Electrical mini-starter.  The Powermaster bench tested fine - it had not failed.  He is able to turn the flywheel, and he pulled the oil pan and everything underneath looks great.  Nothing appears to be seized.  When we put a multimeter on everything, all the numbers are within normal ranges.

When the key is turned, he gets just one click.  Underneath the car, you can see the starter engage the flywheel, but it doesn't seem to have the power to spin it. 

Our thought now is that it could be a bad ground.  Currently, both the ground to the body and to the battery are to the aluminum heads.  We've been told that attaching the grounds to aluminum shouldn't make a difference, but we're open to any suggestions. 

The only other thing we can think of is the battery cables.  They appear nice, clean, and burn free.....so?

ANY help or suggestions are appreciated!

[70 sublime]

Have you tried taking a screw driver and shorting across the 2 posts on the starter relay on the firewall  ?
Maybe the relay is not working good enough
Do you have the fuseable link in the the red wire that goes from the battery to the firewall ?
Could be half burnt out and not letting enough juice through the system to trip the relay ?

Just some thoughts

[ds440]

Thanks for the input!

Yeah, we did try to short the starter relay and there was no change.  So he swapped out the relay just in case.  The red wire that goes from the battery to the firewall doesn't have a fusible link - it's just a straight wire.  There is, however, something labeled 'fusible link' that comes off the starter relay. 

Sorry, we're novices to most of this and are learning as we go.  One our thoughts was that maybe the battery cable to the starter could be burnt (even if it's just barely).  The cable seems to be far enough away from the headers, but.....?

[BLK 68 R/T]

I would try a new battery cable. The current one may have internal corrosion in it somewhere or a partial break, both of which would prevent full current from getting to the starter.

[funknut]

Grounding to aluminum is no problem. 

On my 440 the starter (Powermaster) posts are very, very close to the block and I actually trimmed one down and installed silicone caps on both posts because it looked like they were close enough that they could arc to the block.  Just a couple weeks ago I had a starter bolt work loose, enough for the starter to move around and knock the cap off the positive starter post.  Mine would turn over (barely) and arc, but not start.  Is it possible the starter is shorting to ground?  I would expect you'd see some significant sparks, however.

If you're getting the click, then it sounds like the relays/solenoids are working, but something is interfering with the power to the starter circuit.

Here's a diagram of the circuit if you don't have one already:

http://www.mymopar.com/downloads/1969/69ChargerB.JPG

Good luck and let us know what you find.

[PlainfieldCharger]

Turn your headlights on and see how bright they are. With the headlights on try to start the car. If the headlights dim to nothing then your starter is drawing all the voltage as it is supposed to. I would still measure the voltage on the new battery and I would still put a trickle charger on it while trying to start it. If the lights do nothing while starting it the starter or wiring to the starter is the problem area....

[ds440]

Thanks for all the input and advice, guys!   

We plan on trying your suggestions tonight.  We'll keep you posted!

Thanks again.

[Derwud]

Do a Voltage drop from battery to starter.. Like the headlights, use a voltmeter at the battery when you crank (or try to), see if the voltage drops below 7 volts. Do the Voltage drops across all your power and grounds going to the starter.. I would also try jumpering straight to the starter in the car as well..

[BSB67]

My gut says it is something simple.

If you have not tried these, do so.
1) remove, check, clean, reinstall and tighten the battery terminal/post connections.
2) remove that disconnect device and run your ground cable directly to the battery post.
3) remove and reinstall the relay and starter connections.

If it is not any of these, my money is on that battery.

Did you really remove the oil pan??

[ds440]

My gut says it is something simple.

If you have not tried these, do so.
1) remove, check, clean, reinstall and tighten the battery terminal/post connections.
2) remove that disconnect on run your ground cable directly to the battery post.
3) remove and reinstall the relay and starter connections.

If it is not any of these, my money is on that battery.

Did you really remove the oil pan??

Great advice - thanks!!!

Yeah, we removed the oil pan for a couple reasons.  First, after replacing the starter we could barely move the flywheel.  We were concerned at that point that something catastrophic happened and feared the bottom end was seized.  Secondly....he has a leaking rear main seal.  We were fairly sure that was the source of a major oil leak, and by removing the pan we were checking on both the bearings/bottom end (which looked perfect) and the rear main seal (which looked less than perfect).  Checking the rear main was on the 'to-do' list before the car failed to fire.  So he's dealing with the inevitable hiccups that happen with a new resto.  One obstacle at a time - lol.

We really appreciate all the input guys.
   

[lukedukem]

This happened to me. It was ground from battery to car

Luke

[ds440]

Okay, quick update guys.

This is what we've tried so far:
- Turned the headlights on and attempted to start the car.  The headlights dimmed slightly, but didn't go completely dark.
- Did a voltage drop test on the positive and negative cables – both showed 0.00 on the multimeter.  (Although we did not do this while cranking the car.  Still plan on trying that.)
- Removed the quick disconnect on the negative cable.
- Replaced the negative cable completely.
- Tested the battery voltage again (new battery) – 12.55 on the posts.
- Tested the voltage everywhere, both positive and negative – 12.55 at every possible place.
- Tested the ohms on the ground cables and ground locations – everywhere measured 0.3 ohms.

Things still to try:
- Replace the positive cable to the starter.
- Replace the ground cable from firewall to engine.  (It seems fine though.)
- Try another voltage drop test while attempting to crank the engine.
- Move the grounds to different places on the block.  (Not sure if this will make a difference – desperation move)
- Get a 12v remote starter switch and see if we can by-pass all the wiring.
- Get a priest to sprinkle some holy water on it.

The only other thing that we haven't tested is the brown wire from the starter relay.  I'm not sure what that does.

[Derwud]

Here is a basic on Voltage Drop testing.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/voltage_drop_testing.htm


I would start by testing the starter in the car.. Get a different battery and jumper cables and go straight to the starter.. Once you know that works on the car, work backwards..

My money is on the wires to the Starter...

[PlainfieldCharger]

After all of that it appears in the starter or starter wiring. Cheap fix.. Did you tap the starter with a hammer? That will knock off some of the carbon on the brushes in the starter.

[MSRacing89]

Shot in the dark.....only because I had it happen before.  Make sure your neutral saftey switch wire to the trans is hooked up properly, not broken or loose.  Small wire, driver side of the trans.  This little guy can shut you down in a hurry.

[Derwud]

Shot in the dark.....only because I had it happen before.  Make sure your neutral saftey switch wire to the trans is hooked up properly, not broken or loose.  Small wire, driver side of the trans.  This little guy can shut you down in a hurry.

This why you carry a small screwdriver to jumper the Batt terminal to the Starter terminal on the Starter Relay...

[flyinlow]

Try moving the ground strap to a clean spot on the block. Aluminum conducts electricity well but oxidizes fast, connections can be tricky.  Does not cost anything to try. The starter is bolted to the trans which is bolted to the engine block which is bolted to the aluminum heads thru a fiber head gasket I am guessing. Several connection to be made.

Put an alligator clip on the main power wire at the starter. ( I know it is hard to get to) Hook that to a KNOWN GOOD voltmeter. Check before cranking and during cranking voltage at the starter terminal.

[MSRacing89]

Shot in the dark.....only because I had it happen before.  Make sure your neutral saftey switch wire to the trans is hooked up properly, not broken or loose.  Small wire, driver side of the trans.  This little guy can shut you down in a hurry.

This why you carry a small screwdriver to jumper the Batt terminal to the Starter terminal on the Starter Relay...

I may or may not have wired a momentary switch in the car for situations just like this!!

[ds440]

Here is a basic on Voltage Drop testing.

http://www.aa1car.com/library/voltage_drop_testing.htm


I would start by testing the starter in the car.. Get a different battery and jumper cables and go straight to the starter.. Once you know that works on the car, work backwards..

My money is on the wires to the Starter...

We have a winner!  Actually several of you guys guessed right.   

Positive battery cable was the issue.  It was a brand new cable, so naturally it was one of the last things we would've suspected. 

Sorry for the delay in responding, but we had to order a new cable after performing a proper Voltage Drop test.  The first time we tried the Voltage drop, we were simply testing the drop from the battery post to the battery cables....not while cranking.  Under load, the positive cable was the only one giving us a drop.  He ordered a new cable (which appears to be a bit beefier than the original one), and then it was a pain in the ass to get the cable off the starter (the car has TTI headers). 

Once the new cable was on the car, it turned over right away. 

Now on to fixing a leaking rear main seal. 

We can't thank all of you enough for taking the time to help us through the process.  We couldn't have done it without all the advice.  You guys are awesome!   

[Derwud]

Glad to hear.. Glad I could help...

[Kern Dog]

Now regarding that leaky rear main....
I thought I had a leak there. I changed the seals twice. It ended up being the oil gallery plugs at the back of the block. I had to pull the transmission to tighten them.