need 6 pack help

[Highbanked Hauler]

       My son insisted on a 6 pack setup on the fresh built 440 that went in his  Challenger. This is NOT a race car, it might make it down the strip a few times in its life but this is a driver/cruiser. The carb. setup is out of the box new,no used parts and no adjustments just bolted on. In cool weather the car ran OK but not great. He left here in NC. for Carlisle in about 96 degree heat and made it about 170 miles and the car was running about 220 degrees with a 160 Tstat. and has never run below 190 at any time, it has about 300 miles on it. He called me and said the car was running worse the further he went, no power, temp going up and didn't "sound" right to the point he got it off the road and coasted into a hotel.  I went and got the car and got it started,floored it to clean it out  and more black smoke out the pipes than my Cummins on a hill.  My thought is the carbs need to be jetted WAY down - I don't know what they came with and possibly a float stuck ?   My feeling is that a lot of the engine heat is from burning way to much fuel.

  Any ideas and help would be a great help.  Thanks

[b5blue]

pull some plugs to inspect and check that the choke is fully off. what fuel pump are ya using? do not blame the 6bbl off the bat it could be something else? 

[Highbanked Hauler]

pull some plugs to inspect and check that the choke is fully off. what fuel pump are ya using? do not blame the 6bbl off the bat it could be something else? 

      pump is a Carter,don't have the # handy and I haven't checked carb linkage since I got the car back last night.

[b5blue]

But the pump should be correct one for 6BBL. (?) Throttle rods from center shut outboards at idle? Check bowl fuel heights? Trying to think what could make it get worse. Weak spark could foul plugs also? 

[Highbanked Hauler]

  I think the pump is a 7 lb. unit, don't know if it is the right one.  The dist.is an older MP unit which I had in my car till I went back to a points dist. It also has a NEW orange box which I have heard is questionable. After I got the car started and cleaned out a little the throttle response was instant,no bog or stumble what so ever but the car was cold. I am going to recheck the timing but I think I set it at 12 degrees with the hose disconnected.

[fizz]

Regulate fuel pressure to 6 psi. Check floAt adjustment. Check va umn in gear and make sure you have correct power valve. Make sure you have no vacumn leak at throttle shafts, bore and bush if you need to. Set timing with vacumn guage and curve distributer, adjust for max timing. Just went through it. Doubt if overheat g is from too rich

[Highbanked Hauler]

Regulate fuel pressure to 6 psi. Check floAt adjustment. Check va umn in gear and make sure you have correct power valve. Make sure you have no vacumn leak at throttle shafts, bore and bush if you need to. Set timing with vacumn guage and curve distributer, adjust for max timing. Just went through it. Doubt if overheat g is from too rich

   OK dumber than dog crap here, not up on carb adjustments here.  if the pump is 7 lb. what is it going to do ?  How do you and what do you need to set the float adj. ?  Everything is new.  The dist. was in my car and was no problem I just went back to points.  I question the position of the vibration damper have thought of using timing tape. If you set the timing at TDC the engine will stall out so maybe the 12 degree setting on it is nor really 12 degrees

[Troy]

Watch the float levels. Depending on which "tuning guide" (if any) the float level being to high will let fuel bleed into the carbs at idle. Look down in the front one while it's running and see if there fuel pouring out if the venturi. The stock jetting (I believe) is usually OK. Even the race guys don't seem to step them up much.

I don't know if running rich would cause it to overheat - sounds backwards to me. When mine was hot the stupid orange box ignition would work intermittently and caused a lot more problems than the fuel. It also makes things sound funny.

A 160 thermostat is way too low on a Six Pack. You have to keep enough heat in them to prevent the fuel from pooling but not so much that it boils off and/or vapor locks. Mine always ran worse when hot but not like what you're describing.

I'm beginning to hate my Six Pack and I'm only on my 3rd rebuild...

Troy

[fizz]

I am newb to this but was forced to learn something because the proffesionals I hired didn't do the job. I'll try to help and if I am wrong on something somebody more knowledgable will correct me. On my car the vacumn at idle checked from a manifold vacumn source in gear was about 6 1/2. Part of that was cause the throttle shafts leaked, spray carb cleaner at the ends of all three carbs and if engine idle speed changes get the kit and bush the throttle shaft bores. Relatively easy. Put in a power valve 2 units less than the vacumn reading. So I am at a 4.5. Too low a power valve numerically and if won't give the extra fuel when you need it, under acceleration, and run lean, too high and it will dump raw fuel at idle and spit raw fuel out the exhaust. If your float level is too high it will use extra fuel and again run pig rich. I used a fuel level just at bottom of sight level to start, and raised it a couple turns, it ran better there. My carter street fuel pump ran at 8 psi, which was overpowering the float, giving it too much fuel and contributing to the rich condition. Either plumb in a regulator or change fuel pumps. My engine isn't stock so I set timing to high vacumn and then set it back a couple degrees. For a stock driver this may be enough but if it pings you have to find the timing setting where it doesn't, because if you gave it much more initial timing it also moved up the total timing, which you need to limit in the 32-36 range, depending on what your engine likes. This involves limiting total advance inside your distributer, FBO sells the guage plate.

If running rich your carbs need tuning, but I think it is a timing issue for the overheating.

Hopefully one of the more experienced guys corrects me.

[Highbanked Hauler]

  I am going to set it at TDC and put a timing tape on it as I have heard the ring on a balancer   can slide so I can get an accurate timing reading on it which should also tell total timing right ?   The float level sounds like the problem if the jets aren't. What do you use for a fuel pressure gauge?  He said  the further the car ran the worse it got and my guess is it was loading up and this was running at 75 MPH. I have never had a fuel pump over power a 4 BBL carb but there is always a first. I have a chrome box to put in if the orange box is question.

[b5blue]

6BBL runs 5LB press. with correct pump but I have run plain old parts store 440 pumps. (?) The idea is volume without pressure so a vapor return line would be considered normal but again I ran without in the past. My 6BBL loved vac. advance working on the dizzy. How did the plugs look? Did you check the quality of spark? I put a paint mark on my dizzy/block where they meet as a reference mark. That let me move the timing a bit and go for a test run, move again and so on but always know where it was before.
Did you check the throttle linkage that pushes the outboards closed, that's got to be right. The 70 FSM has good info on 6BBL.

[fizz]

Timing tape would work, I used a dial back timing gun.

[fizz]

Some guys temporarily replace the steel lines with rubber for tuning to they aren't fighting them when pulling the carbs on and off during tuning. I replaced the steel lines with braided from Promax. Either way, then you can plumb in a Holley regulator with guage. Just don't leave the rubber lines there permanently.

[Tom Q]

will some one link the newbie to the six pak tuning guide and stop chasing your tails

[Highbanked Hauler]

    OK here is what I found,  I took the plugs out and I have not seen this before. One half of the plug is tan,light brown,a normal color,the other half looks like it was sprayed with heavy black paint that doesn't scrape off,like its part of the plug. Its on the side of the electrode too but the points of the electrode are clean.
    I got a TDC "bolt"installed and rolled the motor over till it stopped at the bolt.  According to the timing tape the zero line on the vibration damper is 21 degrees ahead of the timing bracket.  So that tells me the timing is 20 degrees retarded when the timing line is at zero or in my case it was 8 degrees retarded when I had the timing at 12 advanced. correct me if I am wrong but that could be 90% of my heat problem ya think ??

   Where do you find room to position an inline fuel pressure regulator ?  The only place I see with enough room is between the fuel pump and the vapor separator..

    I had put a set of insulator pads to put between the valley pan and the manifold but if fuel puddling on the bottom of the manifold is an issue  then it is probably better to leave them out, thoughts..

[maxwellwedge]

Before anything else - figure out why your timing is so far out. I would double and triple check TDC to determine if you have a spun harmonic balancer....or some other issue. I don't remember big blocks having different timing covers like small blocks do....the small blocks changed for 1970.

Don't worry about fuel pumps or installing pressure regulators, intake pads, hanging Aztec worship dolls under the hood or any of that - just set the float levels correctly....AFTER you get your timing sorted out.

[Highbanked Hauler]

Before anything else - figure out why your timing is so far out. I would double and triple check TDC to determine if you have a spun harmonic balancer....or some other issue. I don't remember big blocks having different timing covers like small blocks do....the small blocks changed for 1970.

    A spun balancer is what I think it is. It looks fine but  but it must be out. It definitely is not 180 off. The only thing I can think of is when I primed the oil pump if I could have dropped the pump shaft in a tooth off but even if it was the dist. is  coming up on no.one. The relationship is between the crank,damper and no.1 piston right ??

[moparnation74]

Before anything else - figure out why your timing is so far out. I would double and triple check TDC to determine if you have a spun harmonic balancer....or some other issue. I don't remember big blocks having different timing covers like small blocks do....the small blocks changed for 1970.

Don't worry about fuel pumps or installing pressure regulators, intake pads, hanging Aztec worship dolls under the hood or any of that - just set the float levels correctly....AFTER you get your timing sorted out.

Its Timing......

[maxwellwedge]

Before anything else - figure out why your timing is so far out. I would double and triple check TDC to determine if you have a spun harmonic balancer....or some other issue. I don't remember big blocks having different timing covers like small blocks do....the small blocks changed for 1970.

   A spun balancer is what I think it is. It looks fine but  but it must be out. It definitely is not 180 off. The only thing I can think of is when I primed the oil pump if I could have dropped the pump shaft in a tooth off but even if it was the dist. is  coming up on no.one. The relationship is between the crank,damper and no.1 piston right ??

Yes - the distributor gear only affects the distributor position - which affects it's range of useful travel. Just curious - Was the camshaft degree'd in properly?

[Highbanked Hauler]

  I have all the paperwork on the motor so I can dig it out.   The TDC tool I just got  is the   variable  that I see right now,  maybe it kept the piston from the top and  should have allowed the piston to come up higher which would let the damper line closer to the bracket. Not familiar with this,  Degreeing the cam would  change the position of it to the  crank but not the piston to the crank right ??

[maxwellwedge]

Right.
I would try bumping the motor over slowly (ignition off!) with a finger in #1 hole until you feel compression.....then put a straw - or something else non-destructive in the hole and bring the timing marks together by hand with a socket while watching the straw rise up....cheap and dirty and should get you close to determining if the marks are off.

[Highbanked Hauler]

Right.
I would try bumping the motor over slowly (ignition off!) with a finger in #1 hole until you feel compression.....then put a straw - or something else non-destructive in the hole and bring the timing marks together by hand with a socket while watching the straw rise up....cheap and dirty and should get you close to determining if the marks are off.

       AH, I will try it.  I  remember seeing when the block was done the pistons were set at deck level so it would be whatever space is in the head.

     OK did it !!,   I used a small piece of plastic hose from a brake bleeding kit and moving the the piston to the top and pinched the hose and it went from 20 advanced back to 18 + or - so I know the TDC tool was pretty accurate.

[Troy]

For your piston stop, you have to spin the crank until it hits, mark it, then spin it the other way until it hits and mark that. TDC is halfway between the 2 marks (assuming you're on the compression stroke).

I once used a screwdriver in the way maxwellwedge mentioned... bad idea!

Troy

[maxwellwedge]

Did you have a couple screwdrivers before doing that? 

[Troy]

Yeah, I still have it too - but it's no good for turning screws. Now I use it as a gasket scraper. (I never did look at the piston afterwards.)

Troy

[Highbanked Hauler]

For your piston stop, you have to spin the crank until it hits, mark it, then spin it the other way until it hits and mark that. TDC is halfway between the 2 marks (assuming you're on the compression stroke).

I once used a screwdriver in the way maxwellwedge mentioned... bad idea!

Troy

     OK, all I did was to roll the motor over till the dist. rotor was coming up on No.1, put the TDC bolt in and with a ratchet brought the piston up till it hit the bolt. I figured it had to be on the comp. stroke or it would be 180 off. I hate engines !!!! I would rather tint color any day.

[Troy]

For your piston stop, you have to spin the crank until it hits, mark it, then spin it the other way until it hits and mark that. TDC is halfway between the 2 marks (assuming you're on the compression stroke).

I once used a screwdriver in the way maxwellwedge mentioned... bad idea!

Troy

     OK, all I did was to roll the motor over till the dist. rotor was coming up on No.1, put the TDC bolt in and with a ratchet brought the piston up till it hit the bolt. I figured it had to be on the comp. stroke or it would be 180 off. I hate engines !!!! I would rather tint color any day.

So cheating a bit... the piston will come to the top of the cylinder on every crank revolution. Since the balancer is connected to the crank, the same spot (hopefully on the timing mark) will end up in the same place every time the piston is at it's highest point. So, to mark this on the balancer you don't care if you're on the compression stroke or not. What the "piston stop" does is blocks the piston in it's motion at a precise spot before it can reach the top. When you spin the crank backwards until it hits again that will be the opposite point in the crank's arc. The small area between the two points (not the long way around) is the part the piston stop was blocking and the center point of that area is where the piston would have been at its highest point (Top Dead Center).

You need to know compression stroke to determine when to fire the plug as this only does anything fun when the valves are closed. The cam spins at half the speed of the crank so you get to TDC twice on the crank for each time the valves are fully closed by the cam. This is how you could be "180 degrees out" (but it doesn't sound like it in your case). So, at TDC of the compression stroke the distributor rotor should be pointed to where the #1 plug wire is attached. Your ignition advance is in relation to this spot. That's when you need to check for air escaping the park plug hole (when the exhaust valve is open the air just goes out that way). The next time the piston comes to the top the rotor will be pointing in the opposite direction. A handy point about that: you can also set the timing using #6 if your #1 plug wire is hard to get the probe on.

You probably can't get the engine to run at exactly TDC. Disconnect the distributor vacuum advance before setting the timing so you're only dealing with the mechanical advance.

Since this was running before I probably shouldn't have to point out this next part but I will "just in case": distributor advance is typically run from the vacuum port on the carb NOT the intake. My after market carbs don't have a vacuum port so I have a specially configured distributor that works with manifold vacuum. Or you can just plug it off - but I like the slightly better efficiency when cruising on the highway.

Troy

[BSB67]

For your piston stop, you have to spin the crank until it hits, mark it, then spin it the other way until it hits and mark that. TDC is halfway between the 2 marks (assuming you're on the compression stroke).

Did you do what is described above?  Where it stops is not TDC