Engine builders. Who do you guys recommend?

[pipeliner]

I'm looking to build a 500" 440 Aluminum head engine. I'd like to have around the 600 hp mark with it being gas and street friendly which is most important. I guess I'm looking for a turnkey job right down to the spark plugs. I know there might be a few on here that might could help me. The only motors I could find on the Internet worth looking at was Indys 500" for 10k. Thanks!

[c00nhunterjoe]

Where do you live?

[pipeliner]

I live in the north eastern part of Kentucky.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Im not familiar with the area. Hopefully someone else who lives in the area can reccomend a builder.

[fizz]

After being VERY disappointed with the engine I had built at a mopar magazine featured shop, If I could do it again I would order heads and cam from Duane Porter, and have a reputable LOCAL machine shop do the rest and dyno it. I would have Duane spec the entire engine, I think he would.

[pipeliner]

That's the thing. I can't find anybody around here you can depend on. My block has been at a shop for over 8 months. Told em I was coming to get it.

[Lennard]

Do not buy an engine from Indy. Once they sold you the engine,  you're on your own. They won't even take a phone call from you anymore. If something happens with your engine,  YOU have done something wrong cause they don't make mistakes.  

[heyoldguy]

Here, best I know of in that neck of the woods. Hollis Page.

https://www.facebook.com/HP-Engines-155790877770936/


Jim La Roy
La Roy Engines

[pipeliner]

So nobody builds and then ships their engines with a warranty?

[polywideblock]

I know i'll get bagged, but what about Carolina machine engines   http://www.cmengines.com/Engines/DynoTestedPerformanceEngines/ChryslerPerformanceCrateEngines/tabid/117/Default.aspx
they guarantee all their motors http://www.cmengines.com/Warranty/tabid/106/Default.aspx

and their advertised in all the mopar rags

[pipeliner]

I'll check them out. You know I post in Moparts about a warranty and those guys are already giving me crap. I've been a member there for 9 years and listened to all the bull crap about them all bragging and fighting amongst themselves and holler warranty and man they take an offensive. I understand where they are going but I guess I can't understand spending all that frigging money and at least not back your work up.

[Challenger340]

I'll check them out. You know I post in Moparts about a warranty and those guys are already giving me crap. I've been a member there for 9 years and listened to all the bull crap about them all bragging and fighting amongst themselves and holler warranty and man they take an offensive. I understand where they are going but I guess I can't understand spending all that frigging money and at least not back your work up.

For Engine Builder's, it is not about backing up / warranty'ing their work, it's how do you warranty somebody else's work ?
or even worse Owner stupidity ?

For example, you mentioned a cost effective 600 hp street friendly engine:
* A factory 40 year old 440 Block
* "Aftermarket" Crank
* "Aftermarket" Rods
* "Aftermarket" Pistons/Rings
* "Aftermarket Heads", valves, Rockers, etc., etc., etc.....
With the vast majority of the above cost effective parts manufacturer's to stay on the $10K, having limited to NO warranty backup of their parts ?

So the obvious choice is to then go with better quality aftermarket Parts/Manu's stuff that is top drawer and reasonable warranty
but THAT ain't happening on the $10K !
and then....
if you want warranty ? how in the hell does a builder warranty Owner/operator stupidity even with the better parts ?
You can kill even the BEST parts being stupid..... who the heck is going to "warranty" THAT ?

You know, I don't mean to slam you, just explaining the problem dealing with the "general public" from the other side ?
I still get back 800hp... 900hp Race Engines I built 5, 7, 9, 12, 15.... some evn 18 years ago for freshening ? THOUSANDS of 1/4 Mile runs in the 8's
Still in one piece, still performing well, just back for a looky-loo, file up some rings, check springs, etc., etc. and away they go again.
But THOSE guys know how to run their stuff.... how to maintain it ?, and how to look after it ?

Open questions:
What is good Valvetrain Geometry ?
What is Valve Spring Slew rate ?
What is Thermal Stabilization as it relates to Valvetrain ?
How much does an Aluminum Cylinder Head "grow" from cold to operating temp ?
Be honest here,
If you can't answer the above questions off the top of your head.... without looking on the internet..... little-lown have a practical working knowledge and experience of those concepts.... how the heck does anyone "warranty", even a lowly 600hp N/A pump gas Non-computer "protected" Engine for you ?

As an Engine Builder, we can machine it, we build it, we can beat it like a red-headed step child on the Dyno for 8 Hours, in YOUR presence, to YOUR satisfaction,
and at the end of that day.... it is a proven product !
What YOU do with it after that.... is your business, and if YOU screw it up, don't come looking for warranty on YOUR stupidity.

My apologies for the rant....
but just explaining why at our Shop, we are usually far too busy to take on any "new" Customers ?  just because it has more to do with having NO time for the educational process we have to undertake with "new" Owner's, on how to run, and look after the stuff, AFTER it leaves ?

[heyoldguy]

So nobody builds and then ships their engines with a warranty?

Oh, yeah, we ship and our warranty is noted right on the wall as you enter.

"All work is high performance. No warranty expressed or implied."

I've had owners watch their engines make 5 pulls on the dyno and then say, "Take it off. That's good enough. I don't want it to blow up!"

Then another wanted to make change after change. On the 55th pull we set the engine up just like it was on the 7th pull and it made exactly the same horsepower and torque on the 7th and 55th pull. Where is the warranty now?

[pipeliner]

No offensive taken at all and no disrespect. I've seen some dang good engines with with good parts built for 10k. You want me to sink 14k in a 40 year old block and you have no problem charging top dollar and taking my money for a 40 year old block. I hear this excuse all of the time blaming the owners but it doesn't really matter does it because a good engine builder is like a good surgeon
When you open up your patient your eventually going to find the root cause why your patient is sick. In saying that you know if the owner abused the engine rather they over reved it, didn't keep it  tuned or maintained it properly, an aftermarket part failed or if it was the builders fault but it seems like every builder I've talked to is perfect and makes no mistakes but still won't warranty their work. I've seen em over at Moparts call each other out and fight amongst themselves but mention warranty and they cry foul. They come up with every excuse possible but when it comes right down to it they know if they were at fault or not. Some of these guys buildings these engines have an endless wallet. I do not. I bust my ars for my money and im not going to piss 5 digits away for nothing. My time and money is just as important as yours but I honestly don't mean no disrespect

[heyoldguy]

Too often where there is a warranty and something goes wrong, there is a fight. No warranty here. Earlier this year we had an engine we built smoking badly a couple of weeks after it was installed. We went out and checked it and the aluminum head was leaking oil into an intake port. We ported another head, drove back the 600 miles....again....to the owners house and replaced the head. No charge/no warranty. He did however throw a nice big bar-b-que.

[pipeliner]

I mean I can't expect you to warrant my screw ups, the manafactuers screw ups, just stand up by your work.

[440]

I had a bad Holley carb that was $1000. Because "I" bought it and installed it nobody really wanted to do anything about it, on the other hand if it was a shop there wouldn't be a problem.

It's not my fault the carb had a bad metering block but still had to pony up for 10 hours of dyno time trying to get the damn thing sorted. Hopefully Holley replaced the block at their expense instead of passing the buck to the shop in turn sneaking those into the bill.

When is the engine builder accountable for a failure on their behalf? It's a grey area....

TCI Transmissions comes to mind

[Challenger340]

I mean I can't expect you to warrant my screw ups, the manafactuers screw ups, just stand up by your work.

But that is the entire point, that I think you are somehow missing ?
We CAN stand behind OUR work, and we do !

If the Piston to wall clearance is wrong, if Bearing clearance is wrong, Valve Spring Pressure, Cyl Wall Finish, Ring End Gap, Crank Thrust, Valvetrain Geometry, Fastener Torque anywhere in the Engine, Rods NOT straight and Round, Pin-Fit, yada, yada, and on and on......
Don't you think it would show up being beat like a red-headed step child on a Dyno for 8 Hours ?
Where we are monitoring.... not just simple things like Oil Pressure, Water Temps, Pwr & trq....
But Lambda, EGT's, Oil Temp, O2, cutting Oil Filters apart looking for any tell-tales signs of anything amiss(multiple throughout the Day), Jetting, Tuning, Timing, Leaks anywhere, Ring Break-in, etc., etc.,
Long story short.....
we don't want any crap out there, if somethings going to go wrong.... WE WANT TO KNOW FIRST, BEFORE IT LEAVES !
That's why we run them FAR HARDER than YOU ever will !
Which means.... if something happens AFTER while in YOUR Possession ? We know damn well WHO fawked it up, and so do our customer's, because like I said before.... they fly in and we Dyno in front of them, to their satisfaction, BEFORE it leaves !

And that costs MONEY.... pure & simply ! because things happen for TIME & MONEY !
Our fee at our Shop.... just to do Block & Rotating Assembly Machining, Port & go through Heads, Assemble, and Dyno..... LABOR only.... pretty much eats up $8K of your $10K budget right there without buying part #1.

I wish you the best of luck finding a 600hp Pump Gas Street Engine ..... "Complete & Warrantied".... done by anyone any good, Parts & labor for $10K.

[fizz]

$9500 got me: mismatched cam and lifters with failing lifters, a cam not matched for the intended use, 6 pushrods rubbing on the heads, a used distributer, carbs not  tuned properly, farm store bolts, leaks everywhere, 4 runs on the dyno, 575 hp, no warranty at all.
What I told them was I want a turn key engine, 6 pack street engine I could take on power tour,(I already had the 6 pack and core engine) 550-600 hp.
My exact words were"What kind of price range am I looking at? I want a good engine and can afford it. This car is the only high range build I plan to do in my lifetime and I want it right."
He said 9500-11,500
I said build it then but if it takes more call me, I can afford to have it right. I would rather not have Chinese parts.
He said he prefers Stealth heads, to which I replied "you know more about building engines than I do so do what works best"
I got a more expensive American made stroker kit because he just had a guy cancel his build and he had it on hand.
He then asked for a $4500 deposit, which I paid. He said engine should be ready in 2-3 months.
I was prepared for the engine to actually come in at 12,500, cause that's how things work.
I would have ordered a crate engine, actually talked to Indy at Mopars in the Park, and was prepared to spend $20,000 plus on a hemi, but got scared off because of quality issues that get posted, even with the Mopar crate engines.
Engine was done 7 months later, which put me into winter so I never got to shake car out until spring, which caused me to miss power tour and carlilse. Because we are still working on the screwed up engine.
You can see the guys who built my engine name come up in the mopar magazines. It gives the Idea he is reputable.
The predisposed idea of $5000 paint jobs and $10,000 custom engines is a problem.
It gives the shops who need to make money to stay alive the idea they need to come in at a certain price point to keep their doors open.
So some of us get crap.
My paint and body cost me $30,000 on a car that was already disassembled and had the new sheetmetal on it. It hurt but it is near perfect.
And it is not bondo free.
I have had offers for this car which is not for sale of 80k and 100k
the 80k offer I know was legit. And the car is f8 green.
I do construction work for a living and gave up a lot to have this car.
This hobby comes from shade tree do it yourselfers back in the day. We built our own engines and painted our own cars.
You either do it yourself or can afford to have it done
You should do yours yourself. And stop whining about price
So the rest of us don't get crap
I am prepared to be banned
PS see my car on the 2017 snap on calender   

[Troy]

Simplest: order a crate from Muscle Motors.

I know of a couple of shops near Cincinnati but have no idea what they would charge. One of the recommended ones had one of my 440s but fought me the whole time over how to build it so I picked up my parts and took them home.

Troy

[pipeliner]

$9500 got me: mismatched cam and lifters with failing lifters, a cam not matched for the intended use, 6 pushrods rubbing on the heads, a used distributer, carbs not  tuned properly, farm store bolts, leaks everywhere, 4 runs on the dyno, 575 hp, no warranty at all.
What I told them was I want a turn key engine, 6 pack street engine I could take on power tour,(I already had the 6 pack and core engine) 550-600 hp.
My exact words were"What kind of price range am I looking at? I want a good engine and can afford it. This car is the only high range build I plan to do in my lifetime and I want it right."
He said 9500-11,500
I said build it then but if it takes more call me, I can afford to have it right. I would rather not have Chinese parts.
He said he prefers Stealth heads, to which I replied "you know more about building engines than I do so do what works best"
I got a more expensive American made stroker kit because he just had a guy cancel his build and he had it on hand.
He then asked for a $4500 deposit, which I paid. He said engine should be ready in 2-3 months.
I was prepared for the engine to actually come in at 12,500, cause that's how things work.
I would have ordered a crate engine, actually talked to Indy at Mopars in the Park, and was prepared to spend $20,000 plus on a hemi, but got scared off because of quality issues that get posted, even with the Mopar crate engines.
Engine was done 7 months later, which put me into winter so I never got to shake car out until spring, which caused me to miss power tour and carlilse. Because we are still working on the screwed up engine.
You can see the guys who built my engine name come up in the mopar magazines. It gives the Idea he is reputable.
The predisposed idea of $5000 paint jobs and $10,000 custom engines is a problem.
It gives the shops who need to make money to stay alive the idea they need to come in at a certain price point to keep their doors open.
So some of us get crap.
My paint and body cost me $30,000 on a car that was already disassembled and had the new sheetmetal on it. It hurt but it is near perfect.
And it is not bondo free.
I have had offers for this car which is not for sale of 80k and 100k
the 80k offer I know was legit. And the car is f8 green.
I do construction work for a living and gave up a lot to have this car.
This hobby comes from shade tree do it yourselfers back in the day. We built our own engines and painted our own cars.
You either do it yourself or can afford to have it done
You should do yours yourself. And stop whining about price
So the rest of us don't get crap
I am prepared to be banned
PS see my car on the 2017 snap on calender  

I'm not whining about anything. I've seen cars on the cover of magazines, calenders and from Graveyard Carz that pepole like you will pay crazy money for that couldn't pass for a $1500 paint job, I should know my brother restores cars and is one if the best body men Ive ever seen. Tha same goes with engine work. Either way you look at it saying you pay more will get you a better job or not enough will get you screwed is an oxy moron. There is still guys out there that do it for the passion and make good money while doing it and their not trying to get rich either. Then there is guys out there only for the money. Nothing wrong with that but when you call them and the first words that come out of their mouth is what are your looking to spend I just end the conversation as quick as I can. I don't care to pay good miney but I ain't gettino ripped either. Yeah, I might just do it myself when I get laid off

[pipeliner]

Simplest: order a crate from Muscle Motors.

I know of a couple of shops near Cincinnati but have no idea what they would charge. One of the recommended ones had one of my 440s but fought me the whole time over how to build it so I picked up my parts and took them home.

Troy

I'm working about 30 minutes from Cincinnati right now. I called MM and they wanted $15K and that use Performer Heads and a Quick fuel Carbs. Ain't paying Around $8k for labor. Thanks

[BLK 68 R/T]

I think you will have to decide what you are willing to spend and make a decision based off of that. Either bite the bullet and save up and pay more for a good build or learn how to do some stuff yourself. If you have the short block assembled, have a set of heads done and then assemble everything yourself, you can save some of the labor cost. Obviously the majority of the labor costs are in the short block and heads - boring, honing, fitting rings and pistons, bearing clearances, porting heads, valve stem clearances, springs, locks, retainers, cleaning everything thoroughly, etc, etc. Time to do all that and do it right + actual parts costs adds up fast.

[pipeliner]

Yeah your right. I had a guy send me a message and I called him. Said he wanted to build my engine. We talked for a long time. Hes fairly close to me and use to be a big time player in the drag scene and the go to guy on building engines around here. I knew who he was as soon as he told me his name though it had never crossed my mine to call him because hes so hard to get. He only builds a select few engines a year but does machine work for several. I told him my situation and what I had to work with and he said no problem as long as I make a couple thousand dollars I'll be happy. I paused, mouth dropped and said what?  I asked him what if I have any problems, he said you shouldn't but I'll take care of it. He's even going to come to my house the day we Install it and make sure we get everything correct. He told me one of the reasons why he wanted to do it because he loves doing Mopar engines and just gets to do a few every once in a while since he has retired.

[MxRacer855]

Just out of curiosity... has anyone on here purchased one of Indy's 500ci crates? They put out that 600hp/torque that was mentioned...

http://www.indyheads.com/bbengines.html

[BLK 68 R/T]

Yeah your right. I had a guy send me a message and I called him. Said he wanted to build my engine. We talked for a long time. Hes fairly close to me and use to be a big time player in the drag scene and the go to guy on building engines around here. I knew who he was as soon as he told me his name though it had never crossed my mine to call him because hes so hard to get. He only builds a select few engines a year but does machine work for several. I told him my situation and what I had to work with and he said no problem as long as I make a couple thousand dollars I'll be happy. I paused, mouth dropped and said what?  I asked him what if I have any problems, he said you shouldn't but I'll take care of it. He's even going to come to my house the day we Install it and make sure we get everything correct. He told me one of the reasons why he wanted to do it because he loves doing Mopar engines and just gets to do a few every once in a while since he has retired.

Well sounds like you have a plan now
Good luck on your build and hope it turns out well.

[BSB67]

...and he said "no problem as long as I make a couple thousand dollars I'll be happy". I paused, mouth dropped and said what?  

Why did your mouth drop?  Did he give you a price for the motor, and parts list?

[pipeliner]

Yeah because he's only going to charge me $2k for a turnkey engine and then he's going to come to my house when we Install the engine. We went over the entire build and I liked the way he talked. Said he would also give me his discounts on all the parts where he got discounts. We didn't do a complete breakdown on the price list just yet until we decide just exactly which parts we are going to use like heads, which stroker kit, cams and so forth. He gave me his ideas and I give him mine and we're going to decide when he gets close to start mine.

[Rubberduck]

I got mine from:

http://www.competitionwedge.com/

Todd is a nice guy. And I believe, he knows very well what he does. He built me a 505 stroker from a 440 block.
I only can recommend his work.
Since I live in Germany I had to find someone I can be sure everything works well.

Mario

[Challenger340]

Yeah because he's only going to charge me $2k for a turnkey engine and then he's going to come to my house when we Install the engine. We went over the entire build and I liked the way he talked. Said he would also give me his discounts on all the parts where he got discounts. We didn't do a complete breakdown on the price list just yet until we decide just exactly which parts we are going to use like heads, which stroker kit, cams and so forth. He gave me his ideas and I give him mine and we're going to decide when he gets close to start mine.

There you go.... sounds like you have your guy !   
Good luck on your build.

[pipeliner]

Thanks man. I've had several people here locally tell me I was really lucky to get him. When I get started on the motor I'll list exactly what we are going to do with it.

[303 Mopar]

Would you mind sharing your parts list?

[pipeliner]

We discussed justbthe basic stuff and as soon as we start the engine I'll make another post and put the parts list down. The builder is wanting to use an Indy Dual plane intake with Indy EZ heads, a quick fuel 850, Harlin sharp roller rockers, we talked about stroker kits but haven't decide which one, or cam, lifters or pushrods or the rest of the motor. He told me to call him in 3 weeks to see where he is with his machine work and if he's almost ready were going to get together and get a price list.

[BSB67]

We discussed justbthe basic stuff and as soon as we start the engine I'll make another post and put the parts list down. The builder is wanting to use an Indy Dual plane intake with Indy EZ heads, a quick fuel 850, Harlin sharp roller rockers, we talked about stroker kits but haven't decide which one, or cam, lifters or pushrods or the rest of the motor. He told me to call him in 3 weeks to see where he is with his machine work and if he's almost ready were going to get together and get a price list.

Okay.  Still sounds like a 10 to 15K build.  Keep us posted,

[pipeliner]

I will. He thinks he can keep me under the 10k mark but if we go over a little buy using the good stuff I don't mind. We'll just have to sat down and break everything thing down right to the last penny. I've come to the realization that if I really want a good build 10k probably ain't going to cut it know matter how I look at it. Sure they are routes I can go and save money and have a good motor but I'm just going to have to bite the bullet if i go the way I want to go. I'm lucky to get this builder.