interesting 70 challenger

[ws23rt]

I don't usually go off topic.
Didn't the OP post an ad with a Challenger where the seller bragged about a numbers swap?

 "Opinions don't count when it comes to Federal vehicle law!"

Opinions do count in the real world we live in.  The issue about breaking the "law" or skirting the "law"  Is the topic (as it has evolved so far).

Quoting the "law" is just information for the public to deal with.-----Making whisky illegal did not stop drinking.---Anti gun laws will only increase the number of guns.---

Faking cars is real.  Money makes it real.

This is the rest of what I said. ---My opinion--

[ECS]

As these threads tend to go the topic quickly turns to a fight of sorts.----A dirt clod flies from somewhere and the rest will play out in the usual fashion.

It only turns into a "fight" when the opinions of others are attacked.  You'll never hear me tell anyone else that their "opinion" is wrong for them or that they need to change their view to accommodate what I feel.  If I did act in that manner, that would make me a "stubborn and arrogant" person for thinking I had the right to attack someone else because they wouldn't alter their opinion/view to parallel with mine.  Wouldn't you agree?  

[spoon]

It only turns into a "fight" when the opinions of others are attacked.  You'll never hear me tell anyone else that their "opinion" is wrong for them or that they need to change their view to accommodate what I feel.... 

Corndog effectively called me a drug addict in his first post in this thread.

Not only have I never inhaled, I've never been around drugs, never seen anyone roll a joint, never popped a tab, and I don't drink.

I'm honest, I never skipped a day at school, served six years in the military, and have worked every day (but three) in the last thirty years. I'm so f#ckin' clean, the pavement sparkles after I've walked by...

And no, I've never swapped a VIN.....but you can if you want, dear reader, as I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

[ECS]

Corndog effectively called me a drug addict in his first post in this thread.

You might have him confused with someone else.  Unless you admitted to a VIN swap or re-body and/or defended those types of actions, I can't find where he referenced you in this thread. Below is exactly what he said in the first sentence of the post that you mentioned. 

"People that just accept a VIN swap or REBODY as being okay to do remind me of drug users. "

[crj1968]

There's  couple different way of looking at it IMHO.


One situation a guy buys a VIN tag a fender tag and a piece of a core support and trunk lip and transfers that to another car for reason of making money.
There's no other reason behind it as he could have just used the donor car as is with it's original VIN.....just that VIN wasn't as impressive. 

Another situation a guy owns an entire car- wrecks it, rolls it (whatever) and then finds a clean shell and transfers everything over (one way or another) and saves his car his title, his joy etc.
Technically illegal, but otherwise the car is lost. (especially when we are talking pre aftermarket ANYTHING.) 

I don't know it's a tough one... A Daytona gets rolled or wrecked catches on fire, and the guy just should send it to the crusher? I think we all know that Stephens daytona isn't going to just massaged back to life. You'll see, that car will turn out absolutely beautiful with all new metal but will or won't be considered a re-body, because why?

[Troy]

There's  couple different way of looking at it IMHO.


One situation a guy buys a VIN tag a fender tag and a piece of a core support and trunk lip and transfers that to another car for reason of making money.
There's no other reason behind it as he could have just used the donor car as is with it's original VIN.....just that VIN wasn't as impressive. 

Another situation a guy owns an entire car- wrecks it, rolls it (whatever) and then finds a clean shell and transfers everything over (one way or another) and saves his car his title, his joy etc.
Technically illegal, but otherwise the car is lost. (especially when we are talking pre aftermarket ANYTHING.) 

I don't know it's a tough one... A Daytona gets rolled or wrecked catches on fire, and the guy just should send it to the crusher? I think we all know that Stephens daytona isn't going to just massaged back to life. You'll see, that car will turn out absolutely beautiful with all new metal but will or won't be considered a re-body, because why?

In your second scenario... that car *is* lost. It hasn't been "saved". There's no reason a person can't take everything off the car, transfer it to a new shell, and have a really cool car but WHY would someone need to move the numbers also? Because, without the numbers, it's just a cheap, base model car with a bunch of different parts on it. With the numbers it's "rare", "desirable", and worth a lot more money. As we've seen, nearly anything can be rebuilt. Yes, it's a lot of work.

In the past these cars were sent to the crusher! There are a whole lot of super rare cars that just don't exist any more. And that's OK. Not everything can be saved. The rise in value helps to prolong the life of some cars but it also breeds a lot of fraud from people trying to cash in.

And geez guys, try to stay on topic. Just "let it go". You'll feel better, I promise.

Troy

[crj1968]

In your second scenario... that car *is* lost. It hasn't been "saved". There's no reason a person can't take everything off the car, transfer it to a new shell, and have a really cool car but WHY would someone need to move the numbers also? Because, without the numbers, it's just a cheap, base model car with a bunch of different parts on it. With the numbers it's "rare", "desirable", and worth a lot more money. As we've seen, nearly anything can be rebuilt. Yes, it's a lot of work.

In the past these cars were sent to the crusher! There are a whole lot of super rare cars that just don't exist any more. And that's OK. Not everything can be saved. The rise in value helps to prolong the life of some cars but it also breeds a lot of fraud from people trying to cash in.

Yep- but if the donor car or wrecking yard shell doesn't have a title then...?  By the way I'm not talking about today, things are different now, I'm talking about the 70's and 80's when the cars were a dime a dozen (except for a few rarities) and it was all just hot rodder kids having a good time with motors and metal.  

Anything can rebuilt...true, but if you cut and  take everything from the donor car or use AMD panels and weld it around the original dash that's acceptable...and somehow still numbers matching.....pbbbbbbbbbbbbt! I don't buy it. It the same exact thing done a different way (supposedly, because who is taking pictures?)  

Like I said earlier it really is the difference between "numbers matching and a "true survivor."   Numbers matching can be accomplished by buying what the original post is selling.   

And yeah a lot of cars were crushed and parted out for minor stuff. I used to walk the junkyards 30 years ago....there was everything you could think of in there.
We used to look at the flattened ones stacked on trailers and see what we could recognize.

[ECS]

The rise in value helps to prolong the life of some cars but it also breeds a lot of fraud from people trying to cash in.

What about this hypothetical scenario?  A Repair Facility/Body Shop has a "rusted beyond repair" vehicle sitting in their Shop.  Next to that car they have an identical "donor" car that is ready to be used to "restore" the rusted vehicle.  Which one of these scenarios is considered acceptable.

In the first scenario, all pertinent vehicle identification badging is transferred to the donor vehicle.  All of the Factory welds and build characteristics are preserved and the overall outcome of the "restoration" allows for a safer, better and more expeditious repair process.

In the second scenario, all of the Body components of the donor car are cut apart and then re-welded back on the vehicle in need of repair.  All of the Factory integrity of the donor car is lost when it is cut apart.  The restoration/repair takes 4 times the cost and effort to reassemble what was already a complete unit prior to disassembly.  In essence, the donor car was taken apart to only to be reassembled again.

In the two hypotheticals listed above, the outcomes are the same.  Due to the imaginary rules that some have established in the Hobby, the second one is considered acceptable because the "cloning" involved a semantical process to accomplish the outcome.  The only difference is that with the second scenario the vehicle's Body is no longer Assembly Line correct or as safe as it was before the backwards process began.  And for what?  To appease those who have opinions about what they THINK is legal or illegal?  The Body of a car is comprised of nothing more than cookie cutter assembled components.  Whether you used them in their assembled state or rip them apart (only to be put back together again) is a semantical moot point.  

[crj1968]

exactly.

anyway......uh yeah.... back to the joy of the hobby for me. Give me a 318 VIN and I'll choose my power plant.   

[spoon]

Three things, ECS.

I do not have Corndog konfused with anyone else.

I completely agree with you, VIN swapping is AOK.

RPM is good stuff.

[ws23rt]

The beginning of this thread is about a "kit" car being for sale.

1-- The identifiers of a car that has passed.---The DNA (if you will) of that car---Are for sale.

2-- A donor car with it's "DNA" (presumably) having been tossed aside is a part of that sale.----(that DNA is Not as "good" as the kit DNA).--

Question----What is up with tossing the donor car's DNA?-- Could it be that a future owner may be miffed by it's genetic history??

This is clearly about perceived value of a finished car when it's done.  And the "numbers/identifiers" of a rare car tend to move more money.-- This is simple stuff.
----I may know I have a "kit car" but the next owner might just pay more for it if they have no clue.


AC Cobra's are a cool car that I always liked and I am resigned to the fact that to own an original is impractical. Not mention way out of my budget.

The "clone" Cobra's are a great way to enjoy that part of history and they don't pretend to be originals.  The clone/pretend cobra's that I know of are not trying to add value to themselves by original numbers and tags etc.


In our world of some rare mopars we are not yet passed the scammers that feel the need to present something as being greater than it was.---More money---

The largest motivation for swapping Vin's and body stamping's on a project car tends to go beyond just what it takes to get that car on the road.

As more and more clone cars enter the marked their "special" value because of vin tags and body stamping's ---will go down and put them back with the rest of the crowd.--A short run as they seek their own level in value.

The side of the hobby that I am moved by (for example) is "survivors".  That's where I tend to get most enjoyment.

If-- let's say the hot value in the market becomes survivors.   Their is no doubt in my mind that a market for proper dust and rat droppings will surface.  

Perhaps a "kit" to add to your car that has been stored well and just needs a bit of crap added ---for value--

So come on you speculators/investors/dealers ---I'm an old fart that is losing his mind and have money to spend.--Sell me a "kit' to make my old car look barn fresh.

I just may spend my grandkids education fund if only I could find just the right kind of patina.

[spoon]

You can actually buy a "barn find kit" on eBay.

Includes rat droppings, simulated bird poop, etc. LOL.

[ws23rt]

You can actually buy a "barn find kit" on eBay.

Includes rat droppings, simulated bird poop, etc. LOL.

Wow--   I was just trying to move way off the map to make a point.  
Please post a link.  

[timmycharger]

You can actually buy a "barn find kit" on eBay.

Includes rat droppings, simulated bird poop, etc. LOL.

Wow--    I was just trying to move way off the map to make a point. 
Please post a link. 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,124651.msg1551354.html#msg1551354

[crj1968]

The beginning of this thread is about a "kit" car being for sale.

1-- The identifiers of a car that has passed.---The DNA (if you will) of that car---Are for sale.

2-- A donor car with it's "DNA" (presumably) having been tossed aside is a part of that sale.----(that DNA is Not as "good" as the kit DNA).--

Question----What is up with tossing the donor car's DNA?-- Could it be that a future owner may be miffed by it's genetic history??

This is clearly about perceived value of a finished car when it's done.  And the "numbers/identifiers" of a rare car tend to move more money.-- This is simple stuff.
----I may know I have a "kit car" but the next owner might just pay more for it if they have no clue.


AC Cobra's are a cool car that I always liked and I am resigned to the fact that to own an original is impractical. Not mention way out of my budget.

The "clone" Cobra's are a great way to enjoy that part of history and they don't pretend to be originals.  The clone/pretend cobra's that I know of are not trying to add value to themselves by original numbers and tags etc.


In our world of some rare mopars we are not yet passed the scammers that feel the need to present something as being greater than it was.---More money---

The largest motivation for swapping Vin's and body stamping's on a project car tends to go beyond just what it takes to get that car on the road.

As more and more clone cars enter the marked their "special" value because of vin tags and body stamping's ---will go down and put them back with the rest of the crowd.--A short run as they seek their own level in value.

The side of the hobby that I am moved by (for example) is "survivors".  That's where I tend to get most enjoyment.

If-- let's say the hot value in the market becomes survivors.   Their is no doubt in my mind that a market for proper dust and rat droppings will surface.  

Perhaps a "kit" to add to your car that has been stored well and just needs a bit of crap added ---for value--

So come on you speculators/investors/dealers ---I'm an old fart that is losing his mind and have money to spend.--Sell me a "kit' to make my old car look barn fresh.

I just may spend my grandkids education fund if only I could find just the right kind of patina.

Good points all around...
I too think survivors are the most interesting...a car that somehow escaped getting , hot rodded, parts swapped, repaints etc...   

And yeah the market is hot for barn finds and survivors and patina which brings in a whole new level of opportunists.   

[Kern Dog]

Corndog effectively called me a drug addict in his first post in this thread.

Not only have I never inhaled, I've never been around drugs, never seen anyone roll a joint, never popped a tab, and I don't drink.

I'm honest, I never skipped a day at school, served six years in the military, and have worked every day (but three) in the last thirty years. I'm so f#ckin' clean, the pavement sparkles after I've walked by...

And no, I've never swapped a VIN.....but you can if you want, dear reader, as I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

First up, you got the name wrong. I'm hoping that it was intentional because it would be a shame if anyone were that stupid.
Secondly, My point made sense if you read it correctly.  In regards to the people that think that swapping Federally protected vehicle identities is okay: They REMIND me of drug addicts because they are likely to be surrounded by others with the same mentality.
Read my other posts. When I approach something that may come off as controversial, I often pepper my sentences with metaphors or similar instances that relate.
To write that something reminds me of something isn't to say in absolute terms that it is a fact. It is an opinion, simple as that.
I feel that VIN swapping is wrong.
It is not as if I live my life by the letter of the law in every situation. I've ripped tags off of mattresses, driven over 55 on the freeway, lied to women to get them to take their pants off, etc.

[spoon]

Thank the Lord you put that word in bold, Corndog....I would've needed an Enigma machine to decode your post, otherwise.

Achtung! baby

[Kern Dog]

German danger???   

[ECS]

First up.......

Hi Kern.  I think some of us are saying the same thing but it's being translated differently.  I don't think that there should be a VIN swap for any car.  A VIN Swap is swapping one VIN with another VIN.  Can anyone show me where someone has ever "swapped" a Slant six Barracuda VIN plate with a Hemicuda VIN plate?  That would mean that someone put a VIN tag from a six cylinder on a hemi car and took the hemi VIN tag and put it on the six cylinder car.  That's a "swap"!  When you "swap" items at a Store, do you walk in empty handed and grab something from the shelf and then walk out?  Absolutely not!  You take one item into the Store and exchange it for another.  Both items still exist.  When a repair is done on a car like being discussed here, only one car remains.  There are not two cars being swapped back & forth to represent the other.  Do you see how some of these people throw around words and phrases without even understand what they are actually conveying?

On a separate note, Jimi forwarded a thread you guys are involved with where others are talking about my demeanor.  (These guys must really be obsessed with who I am and what I do......LOL)  I consider you a forum Friend even though we have never met.  My advice is not to waste your time trying to defend me.  This same clan of pinheads continue to lie about PM's that I never sent and complain about how I "ignored" their valuable information.  Once again, they don't have the ability to understand the words and phrases they use.  I didn't "ignore" anything!  I simply choose not accept their point of view.  They obviously don't know the difference between "ignoring" and "complying" with the things they say.  Their arrogance has them believing that people should simply cower down to their point of view because they say so.  On the flip side, I guess they choose to "ignore" the information and people I have spoken to who claim the opposite of their informants.  

[spoon]

German danger???   

I often pepper my posts with 90's album titles

[Kern Dog]

Thats cool, Dave.
I followed the various threads on the Barracuda and was impressed with the quality of your work. When I look at these classics, I am not nearly as involved or interested in factory correctness or originality as the experts. Sure, I appreciate a well restored car and I also appreciate the history of rare and desireable cars. Its just that when internet tough guys want to banter about date codes, paint spots and fender tag codes, I lose interest. I just like the cars.
I have been a framing Carpenter for almost 30 years. One of my brothers was a sculptor/artist, the other was a Rock guitarist. We Kerns like to be creative, to build things. We take pride in what we do. It pisses me off to hear anyone criticize another mans work, especially when the critic is a no talent hack. Imagine the homeless loser on a bike tossing out insults toward your car at a show? Opinions are one thing, unprovoked bashing is quite another.
When I see a talented person taking heat for their work, it pisses me off. I'll go to great lengths to defend a friend that is treated unfairly.
I was not on FBBO when the whole trouble came down. I followed the 4 door thread almost daily then I was busy with work awhile. I logged back on and you were gone along with that Seventy guy. I didn't know what happened to either of you guys and since you both were quite active there, I was curious and recently asked about it.
Back on topic:
Terminology is important, I agree.
As is often the case, I write things that make sense to me but sometimes they are misinterpreted. By VIN swap, I mean the following: To change the identity of a vehicle by installing a VIN tag from another vehicle. It could be a slanty, a 318, a 383 or whatever. If a car was issued a VIN, I feel that this car should retain that VIN. If a car is too far gone to restore, nature has taken its toll and the car should be finished. To take the VIN tag from a horribly damaged car and then attached to another car is Fraud. How can anyone see it different? These cars were issued a specific set of numbers for a reason. To attach a non factory VIN to another car just smacks of deceit.
Now....
If a car is being restored and the original VIN tag is damaged, I see absolutely no problem in having a reproduction tag (With identical numbers and letters) installed.
Does anyone ever put a VIN tag from a 440-6 or HEMI car onto another 440-6 or HEMI car? I doubt it. Has anyone ever heard of a slant six car VIN being attached to a damaged  440-6 or HEMI car? I doubt that too. Making money is fine, I encourage it. I do not encourage the practice of fraud.

[ws23rt]

This ^^^^^is a clear example of why threads can move to the lock mode.

It looks like a personal conversation but it is posted for all to read.---

Is this provocative??-----Is it on topic??----Why is the public seeing this as it relates to the topic?

[ECS]

provocative??--This ^^^^^is a clear example of why threads move to the lock mode.
Why is the public seeing this???

God forbid that anyone hear the truth about things that go on!  I'm sure if it was someone wrongfully bashing me as usual, you'd be right there adding your two cents for the "public" to see.

[Kern Dog]

This ^^^^^is a clear example of why threads can move to the lock mode.

-Is it on topic??----Why is the public seeing this as it relates to the topic?

Hey, Sorry if you feel encumbered by a few additional sentences. You seem to be up to the task of reading and responding, take it easy, man!!
Read further down...I did get back on topic regarding my opinions on VINs and such!   

[ws23rt]

provocative??--This ^^^^^is a clear example of why threads move to the lock mode.
Why is the public seeing this???

God forbid that anyone hear the truth about things that go on!  I'm sure if it was someone wrongfully bashing me as usual, you'd be right there adding your two cents for the "public" to see.

Please excuse me for thinking I was eavesdropping on a personal conversation.----Bashing retracted if that's what i did--