interesting 70 challenger

[crj1968]

Is a car numbers matching anymore if the trunk lip and radiator support have been replaced? How about a re-pop rad support with no numbers?

There in lies the rub as the saying goes. What is the difference between a "rebody" and having to replace all those parts with new ones on your car? After that how can someone ever prove one was a rebody and the other wasn't?

Exactly. My point is for a run of the mill car that has been repaired or whatever, it's really kind of a non issue....unless it's stolen of course...
If you are buying a $300K Hemi car you better know what you are looking at and even then you could be fooled.

An expert on mopars could also be a cloning expert. 

[ECS]

I have a friend who owns a 70  340 Challenger. He had title which matched the body stampings and fender tag, but no dash VIN. A company ( maybe ECS?) was able to make him a new dash VIN.
It didn't happen overnight mind you, but it happened. Now if you read the laws about especially part 6 it makes no sense that he would get a VIN tag for it. He should be doing 10 years and $20K fine right? Wrong- he did all the right things and got his VIN tag. The folks at cuda-chall.com wanted his head on a platter!

If you read the Law that governs this matter, you'll see that "intent" is the underlying tone for which these laws are enforced.  The people you mentioned who wanted your Friend's "head on a platter" are simply the uninformed mob, who is pushing their misguided opinions to try and enforce "laws" that are not established.  I'm working on a 4 Door Project where the "mob" had accused me of VIN swapping and/or re-bodying the Car.  There never was an existing vehicle or a VIN to swap from one vehicle to another!  That makes it impossible to be guilty of either scenario when the VIN is like no other and the Body is a "one of a kind" that was never built by ANY Manufacturing Plant.

[moparnation74]

An expert on mopars could also be a cloning expert.  
[/quote]

[lukedukem]

Just because it may seem common - it doesn't make it "legal". This is where this conversation always falls apart. People do it. People think it's ok. Until one of them is sitting in jail and they're dumbfounded.

I suppose I can agree somewhat- the last two Chargers I bought were both re-bodies. One I'm not sure when it happened the other it happened in late 70's.

I know the  DMV doesn't care. I asked them about it and their answer was does the Vin match the title? Yes. Done.
They really could care less about numbers stamped on the body. One car was from California and to get Idaho title they looked at the dash VIN and that was it.

The thing is- for arguments (or conversations)  sake; lets take the "chop shops" out of the issue, which is what i think these laws are really written for.  How is anyone going to prove how a re-body was done?

It's like joining part A to part B- which part moved?  How to prove it?


I have a friend who owns a 70  340 Challenger. He had title which matched the body stampings and fender tag, but no dash VIN. A company ( maybe ECS?) was able to make him a new dash VIN.
It didn't happen overnight mind you, but it happened. Now if you read the laws about especially part 6 it makes no sense that he would get a VIN tag for it. He should be doing 10 years and $20K fine right? Wrong- he did all the right things and got his VIN tag. The folks at cuda-chall.com wanted his head on a platter! It was insane- honest guy, honest car, VIN missing. The law gave him one.

Is a car numbers matching anymore if the trunk lip and radiator support have been replaced? How about a re-pop rad support with no numbers?

I'm in the same boat with a Duda that is for sale near me. Title may he's vin. On radiator but there's no dash vin. Nor a fender tag. Just radiator vin.

Luke

[crj1968]

If you read the Law that governs this matter, you'll see that "intent" is the underlying tone for which these laws are enforced.

Agreed.  Intent being the key.  None of it exists unless someone cries foul. I imagine it can get pretty sticky when someone cries foul after a car has changed hands a dozen times!


Your 4 door project is the Cuda?  I saw that thread a while back....craziness. I mean how do you clone/fake a 4 door Cuda?  

[crj1968]

I'm in the same boat with a Duda that is for sale near me. Title may he's vin. On radiator but there's no dash vin. Nor a fender tag. Just radiator vin.

Luke

I think on something like that you could get a state issued VIN. It just wont be like a legit mopar VIN tag. Does it have door sticker VIN?

[ws23rt]

My beef with this whole issue of "rebody", "clone", "vin swap", etc. is the inevitable dilution of the value of many deserving cars in the long run.

The hobby is bruised by it. -- The obvious motivation is money.----More money for real/original cars and less money for fake/cloned cars.

Buyers and sellers of all sort are faced with a complicated question because of all of this.---Is it real?--

Technical compliance with laws apparently can allow a car to be fabricated/cloned/rebodied,etc. if proper "legal" steps are taken or adhered to.

When someone has a car they are selling the spotlight is bright and a large burden of responsibility goes with it.  If they were fooled when they bought the car they now are involved in something that could be a real mess for them.

The term buyer beware is an old one but has gained a new significance lately.-----Seller beware as well---

[lukedukem]

I'm in the same boat with a Duda that is for sale near me. Title may he's vin. On radiator but there's no dash vin. Nor a fender tag. Just radiator vin.

Luke

I think on something like that you could get a state issued VIN. It just wont be like a legit mopar VIN tag. Does it have door sticker VIN?

No door sticker vin. I called the local tax office. She said I can get a Texas issued vin, but it will go on the door And not be the same numbers as the original. I'd like to get an original for the dash. Btw, this car is not a hemi or 440 car, and the seller isn't representing as such.

I meant Cuda not Duda

Luke

[ws23rt]

I'm in the same boat with a Duda that is for sale near me. Title may he's vin. On radiator but there's no dash vin. Nor a fender tag. Just radiator vin.

Luke

I think on something like that you could get a state issued VIN. It just wont be like a legit mopar VIN tag. Does it have door sticker VIN?

No door sticker vin. I called the local tax office. She said I can get a Texas issued vin, but it will go on the door And not be the same numbers as the original. I'd like to get an original for the dash. Btw, this car is not a hemi or 440 car, and the seller isn't representing as such.

I meant Cuda not Duda

Luke

So you say you would "like to get an original for the dash".   If you lost your leg I'm sure you would like the original back.  

A big issue with "cloning" a vin tag is that the previous history of that "vin number" may still be alive and cause much grief down the line.

IMO cloning a vin tag is a part of the big problem.---If one has no tag a --new--- vin number should be made to reflect the cars place in the market and will protect everyone that will buy or sell that car forward.  That "new" vin could be made to look as original and satisfy everyone.  It would (if done properly) not conflict with historical data about production numbers.

[spoon]

My beef with this whole issue of "rebody", "clone", "vin swap", etc. is the inevitable dilution of the value of many deserving cars in the long run.

The hobby is bruised by it. -- The obvious motivation is money.----More money for real/original cars and less money for fake/cloned cars......

And therin lies the rub. This is the bit that pisses me off. Too many moonunits care about the VALUE of these cars, noses get bent out of joint and its lawyers at ten paces.

We're car guys. Not investors. Hemi cars should be two K dearer than 340 cars.

People who are in this hobby for the money are parasites.

[Troy]

Just because it may seem common - it doesn't make it "legal". This is where this conversation always falls apart. People do it. People think it's ok. Until one of them is sitting in jail and they're dumbfounded.

I suppose I can agree somewhat- the last two Chargers I bought were both re-bodies. One I'm not sure when it happened the other it happened in late 70's.

I know the  DMV doesn't care. I asked them about it and their answer was does the Vin match the title? Yes. Done.
They really could care less about numbers stamped on the body. One car was from California and to get Idaho title they looked at the dash VIN and that was it.

The thing is- for arguments (or conversations)  sake; lets take the "chop shops" out of the issue, which is what i think these laws are really written for.  How is anyone going to prove how a re-body was done?

It's like joining part A to part B- which part moved?  How to prove it?


I have a friend who owns a 70  340 Challenger. He had title which matched the body stampings and fender tag, but no dash VIN. A company ( maybe ECS?) was able to make him a new dash VIN.
It didn't happen overnight mind you, but it happened. Now if you read the laws about especially part 6 it makes no sense that he would get a VIN tag for it. He should be doing 10 years and $20K fine right? Wrong- he did all the right things and got his VIN tag. The folks at cuda-chall.com wanted his head on a platter! It was insane- honest guy, honest car, VIN missing. The law gave him one.

Is a car numbers matching anymore if the trunk lip and radiator support have been replaced? How about a re-pop rad support with no numbers?

A 70 Challenger would have had the door sticker. That's "good enough" for most DMVs and also for a repro tag (I think).

Troy

[ws23rt]

My beef with this whole issue of "rebody", "clone", "vin swap", etc. is the inevitable dilution of the value of many deserving cars in the long run.

The hobby is bruised by it. -- The obvious motivation is money.----More money for real/original cars and less money for fake/cloned cars......

And therin lies the rub. This is the bit that pisses me off. Too many moonunits care about the VALUE of these cars, noses get bent out of joint and its lawyers at ten paces.

We're car guys. Not investors. Hemi cars should be two K dearer than 340 cars.

People who are in this hobby for the money are parasites.

  It is indeed two different worlds of folks that want to play.  I am from the days when the cars were a big part of my growing up and my interest is in remembering as well as paying tribute to a fun time.

Making money on the hobby tends to poke a stick at some of us old folks to see how much of our hard earned money can be had.  When we pass (or otherwise spend our money) what will be left?----

Investors do what they do.  They wring out every dollar they can for the "fun" of profit.

[ECS]

Your 4 door project is the Cuda?  I saw that thread a while back....craziness. I mean how do you clone/fake a 4 door Cuda?  

Exactly!  You can't clone what was never manufactured.  And I guess I shouldn't be too concerned with hurting the value of all those "high dollar" 4 Door Barracudas that might still be out there. 

[Kern Dog]

I have stated this before but will do so again...
IF a man wants to spend his own money to build a car his way, he has the right to do it as long as he violates no laws. If that man wants to build a 4 door version of a car that was never a 4 door model, so be it.
I do not understand why anyone would spend the time to bash a guy for building a car. How is it anyones concern? Did the man solicit financing to do it? Did he claim that it is a "restoration" of a production vehicle?
I never saw anything to show that the 4 door Barracuda was anything other than a car built to pay tribute to a car that Plymouth may have built.
I'm sure that many of us had a classic Mopar or other car when we were just stupid kids. We wrecked it, then took all useable parts and installed them on another similar car. That is fine. It is not fine to swap numbers from one car to another, especially for the purpose to defraud potential buyers whom act on the belief that said vehicle is authentic.

[moparnation74]

I It is not fine to swap numbers from one car to another, especially for the purpose to defraud potential buyers whom act on the belief that said vehicle is authentic.

Thats the whole  point in this thread.....Only you and ECS are trying to tie unrelated topics here as usual....

[Kern Dog]

I don't usually go off topic.
Didn't the OP post an ad with a Challenger where the seller bragged about a numbers swap?

[moparnation74]

I don't usually go off topic.
Didn't the OP post an ad with a Challenger where the seller bragged about a numbers swap?

Yes but this part of your post KD...

I have stated this before but will do so again...
IF a man wants to spend his own money to build a car his way, he has the right to do it as long as he violates no laws. If that man wants to build a 4 door version of a car that was never a 4 door model, so be it.
I do not understand why anyone would spend the time to bash a guy for building a car. How is it anyones concern? Did the man solicit financing to do it? Did he claim that it is a "restoration" of a production vehicle?
I never saw anything to show that the 4 door Barracuda was anything other than a car built to pay tribute to a car that Plymouth may have built.

You do recall this, correct?

[ws23rt]

I have stated this before but will do so again...
IF a man wants to spend his own money to build a car his way, he has the right to do it as long as he violates no laws. If that man wants to build a 4 door version of a car that was never a 4 door model, so be it.
I do not understand why anyone would spend the time to bash a guy for building a car. How is it anyones concern? Did the man solicit financing to do it? Did he claim that it is a "restoration" of a production vehicle?
I never saw anything to show that the 4 door Barracuda was anything other than a car built to pay tribute to a car that Plymouth may have built.
I'm sure that many of us had a classic Mopar or other car when we were just stupid kids. We wrecked it, then took all useable parts and installed them on another similar car. That is fine. It is not fine to swap numbers from one car to another, especially for the purpose to defraud potential buyers whom act on the belief that said vehicle is authentic.

You may well have stated this before.  Why are you compelled to state it again here in this thread??

This topic has moved to the question/topic about fraud or the potential of the affect of fraud.

I have seen no bashing (so far) of anyone in this thread.

Many of us are aware of the car project that you brought up but I find it to be just a bit out of place to bring it up as you did. 

You further mention "bashing" and go on to include other issues from other threads about the "saga"

We all know where this can (and will lead)

ECS will do what he does to these threads on his own.  -- History speaks--

The slightest provocation ----strike the match--- as you did ----and we are off to another turn down the drain.

BTW the 4 door cuda project car can easily be found for those that want to see.---google is what i use to find stuff---

[ECS]

I don't usually go off topic.
Didn't the OP post an ad with a Challenger where the seller bragged about a numbers swap?

I guess your critic completely ignored the post that was coincidently and indirectly referencing my project on the first page.  For the record, it's ALL related one way or another.  It doesn't matter if it's this particular Challenger or a different vehicle.  It's all relevant and has been an area of concern since these cars have become iconic collectables.  The Michigan Laws I posted are 100% applicable to the OP's comments.  As a matter of fact, I'm the only one who has posted anything factual about the topic.  Opinions don't count when it comes to Federal vehicle law!

[ECS]

You do recall this, correct?

You should stop with trying to cause trouble with Kerndog for what he posts.  If I recall, you made the quote below in a previous thread.  You might want to practice what you preach and allow other Members the same respect that you think you deserve. (By the way, you should have used the word "You're" at the beginning of your sentence.)

"Your not the forum administrator here?  With that said, I will post in any thread I see fit...maybe quote you once and awhile.  Whether I agree or disagree.  It is a Forum a Discussion...."

[ECS]

ECS will do what he does to these threads on his own.

Why don't you vent your dismay at those who just can't keep themselves from bringing my project into threads that have no parallel to the topic.  As usual, the fraternal clique steps right over the instigating comments and come straight to me for responding to the thinly veiled insults.  The usual suspects then all come running to the thread to heap on.  

If you don't like me RESPONDING, then I suggest you don't play your cowardly games of directly talking about me, while not directly mentioning me by name.  That's what is referred to as the "Cowardly Out".  People say something directly in their indirect manner and then play ignorant/innocent when called out.

[crj1968]

Opinions I think do matter, as how does one prove how part A and part B came together?

And as WS23Rt said, it's unfortunate that the money has come in to play so heavily and put both buyers and sellers in a strange situation. The bad intentions of the few screw it up for the masses....isn't that how everything goes?

In the 80's I never even knew about body VIN stamps.  

[ws23rt]

I don't usually go off topic.
Didn't the OP post an ad with a Challenger where the seller bragged about a numbers swap?

 "Opinions don't count when it comes to Federal vehicle law!"

Opinions do count in the real world we live in.  The issue about breaking the "law" or skirting the "law"  Is the topic (as it has evolved so far).

Quoting the "law" is just information for the public to deal with.-----Making whisky illegal did not stop drinking.---Anti gun laws will only increase the number of guns.---

Faking cars is real.  Money makes it real.

[ECS]

Opinions do count in the real world we live in.

Then present your opinion to the NICB to stop whatever it is that you so adamantly object to in this Hobby.  Be sure to let us know what Law has been established that represents your "opinion".

[ws23rt]

ECS will do what he does to these threads on his own.

Why don't you vent your dismay at those who just can't keep themselves from bringing my project into threads that have no parallel to the topic.  As usual, the fraternal clique steps right over the instigating comments and come straight to me for responding to the thinly veiled insults.  The usual suspects then all come running to the thread to heap on.  

If you don't like me RESPONDING, then I suggest you don't play your cowardly games of directly talking about me, while not directly mentioning me by name.  That's what is referred to as the "Cowardly Out".  People say something directly in their indirect manner and then play ignorant/innocent when called out.

I have no interest or intent to joust with you.   That is why I word my posts as I do.  

My intent is to keep on topic as best I can and that sometimes apparently is provocative.

As these threads tend to go the topic quickly turns to a fight of sorts.----A dirt clod flies from somewhere and the rest will play out in the usual fashion.