interesting 70 challenger

[tan top]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dodge-Challenger-/331898780333?forcerrptr=true&hash=item4d46b57aad:g:WEoAAOSwbYZXeCKs&item=331898780333

[tan top]

 

[spoon]

Brad is bold, I'll give him that much.

I know all the do-gooders will launch themselves into fits about this, but the fact is this has been happening for decades. Half of the Chargers out there are re-bodies. Your car is probably a rebody, and you don't know it.

You can't put the genie back into the bottle. People should just get used to that fact.

My Charger has it's original VIN (I think!), but the rest of the car has been changed. Now Sublime, was originally white. Was a 318, now a 340. Was a green vinyl roof, now it's a black one. Got '71 RT stripes on it, but it's a '73. My whole car is a fake, but it's completely legal because its got the original bit of tin riveted to the dash frame. Sheesh.

Rebody, schmebody.

[spoon]

Oh, and guess what?

I'm about to put Rallye taillight lenses onto it....please don't shoot me.

[Troy]

Brad is bold, I'll give him that much.

I know all the do-gooders will launch themselves into fits about this, but the fact is this has been happening for decades. Half of the Chargers out there are re-bodies. Your car is probably a rebody, and you don't know it.

You can't put the genie back into the bottle. People should just get used to that fact.

My Charger has it's original VIN (I think!), but the rest of the car has been changed. Now Sublime, was originally white. Was a 318, now a 340. Was a green vinyl roof, now it's a black one. Got '71 RT stripes on it, but it's a '73. My whole car is a fake, but it's completely legal because its got the original bit of tin riveted to the dash frame. Sheesh.

Rebody, schmebody.

I think you may be overestimating a bit. Maybe it's because I don't have a bunch of rare cars but none that I have had show any sign of major work or a rebody. But several of mine have also been in project status since the early 80s too...

There's a distinct difference between "upgrading" (swapping parts and paint) and resurrecting a car via VIN swap. And that difference is the part that will put you in jail. What you are doing to your car won't magically quadruple the value. One could argue that putting a 318 VIN on a Hemi car to get it back on the road should be fine - but it never works that way does it? Wonder why...

Troy

[Mytur Binsdirti]

There's a distinct difference between "upgrading" (swapping parts and paint) and resurrecting a car via VIN swap. And that difference is the part that will put you in jail.  
Troy

Is it safe to assume that the same hold true for someone who manufactures their own authentic looking, but fictitious VIN, fender tag, broadcast sheet & stamps all new numbers in the body?

[Troy]

There's a distinct difference between "upgrading" (swapping parts and paint) and resurrecting a car via VIN swap. And that difference is the part that will put you in jail. 
Troy

Is it safe to assume that the same hold true for someone who manufactures their own authentic looking, but fictitious VIN, fender tag, broadcast sheet & stamps all new numbers in the body?

As far as I know, the law doesn't care about fender tags and broadcast sheets because they aren't legal identifying items (but I also don't know the exact wording of the laws in every state). I have mainly only researched "VIN tampering". Here in Ohio, you can actually do some VIN swapping - as long as it's in the presence of and witnessed by the authorities. The criminals don't seem to take this approach very often. I'm not aware of anything that lets you create numbers on a whim. I'd assume that if you have the ability to register them with the correct authority OR you were creating a show car without intention to register it for legal use then there's probably nothing to stop you. The legality of all this usually comes into question as a result of a sale. The next owner (or the ones after that) probably will not be terribly happy knowing they paid a huge premium for a base model car. Regardless of whether there's a criminal prosecution, the civil matter will likely boil down to "intent".

Troy

[Kern Dog]

People that just accept a VIN swap or REBODY as being okay to do remind me of drug users. Just because people that YOU associate with do it does not mean that it is everywhere and generally accepted.
Yes, it happens. I've known of VIN swaps even in plain Jane slanty/318 cars that were never converted to anything regarded as "high performance".
Drug addiction happens, too. Smart, ethical people steer clear of behavior and habits that are illegal and/or harmful.

[crj1968]

I know all the do-gooders will launch themselves into fits about this, but the fact is this has been happening for decades. Half of the Chargers out there are re-bodies. Your car is probably a rebody, and you don't know it.

Yep very common- a car gets wrecked a guy finds a clean shell in a junkyard (when they could be found in junkyards) and everything gets swapped over.
Individuals, body-shops etc all did it. Totally legal....just not "numbers matching" body panel wise. I know it's beating a dead horse here but is a re-body any less numbers matching than a car that has had both fenders, both quarters, the top, the floors and doors replaced?  Or any combination thereof?  

I guess it really is the difference of "numbers matching" vs. a true "survivor."      

What is illegal is producing a VIN. But if you own a real VIN, legally, you own the car...the rest is just parts.  

[ECS]

Is it safe to assume that the same hold true for someone who manufactures their own authentic looking, but fictitious VIN, fender tag, broadcast sheet & stamps all new numbers in the body?

I'm sure you're not talking about me or my project but I'll be happy to answer your question.  Your assumption is much too vague and incomplete in thought.  You just described what every Car Manufacturer in the World is doing when they build their cars.  They manufacture cars with all of the objectives that you spelled out.  Are they ALL committing a crime?  Isn't any VIN "fictitious" until it is legally assigned to a real car? 

An assigned vehicle number can be any designation as long as it complies with NHTSA protocol and has never been duplicated.  My Company is approved and licensed to supply VIN related items to the Collision Industry across the World.  We have been given this approval by the Manufacturers and operate as a licensed Officer representing these Companies.  We also have been given approval to manufacture "retro cars" for the different manufactures, for up to 12 units yearly.  Using a broad brush to say that something is illegal is like saying that printing money is a crime.  It certainly would be a crime for those not approved to do it but I can assure you that there are commissioned Companies printing money (LEGALLY) for the Federal Reserve. 

Below is the Michigan Law concerning this topic.  Michigan is considered the "Mecca" for Automobile Manufacturing (or they used to be) and the Federal Laws are similar across the Nation.  Read for yourself who is allowed to LEGALLY provide the items being discussed here.

[crj1968]

Section 1 is strange. How do you conceal or misrepresent WITHOUT intent to mislead ?  WTH?   

[spoon]

..There's a distinct difference between "upgrading" (swapping parts and paint) and resurrecting a car via VIN swap. And that difference is the part that will put you in jail. What you are doing to your car won't magically quadruple the value. One could argue that putting a 318 VIN on a Hemi car to get it back on the road should be fine - but it never works that way does it? Wonder why...

Troy

Hi Troy, I note the title "Admin" under your username.....this newbie thanks you for the forum that you provide.

I would never buy a genuine Hemi car, the prices those cars achieve is way too high. The reason why? Too many people care about numbers matching. It's a car. With a number on it. And an engine (of some displacement). Those owners made the prices high, by paying the prices. It's their own fault.

[ECS]

Section 1 is strange. How do you conceal or misrepresent WITHOUT intent to mislead ?  WTH?   

There are many scenarios that fall into that type of category.  It could be as simple as a junkyard putting a random dash (that has a VIN plate from another car) into another vehicle, to complete a junk car, to sell it off.  They may not have intended to "swap numbers" but they did it through their ignorance of the situation.  

[Charger_Fan]

Section 1 is strange. How do you conceal or misrepresent WITHOUT intent to mislead ?  WTH?   

That's easy. Smoke a big gob of crack...then your crack-twisted mind decides "hey, I should swap VIN tags". When you wake up two days later, the deed has been done & you have no idea how it happened.

[crj1968]

Section 1 is strange. How do you conceal or misrepresent WITHOUT intent to mislead ?  WTH?   

There are many scenarios that fall into that type of category.  It could be as simple as a junkyard putting a random dash (that has a VIN plate from another car) into another vehicle, to complete a junk car, to sell it off.  They may not have intended to "swap numbers" but they did it through their ignorance of the situation.  

Gotchya.   

[Drache]

There are many scenarios that fall into that type of category.  It could be as simple as a junkyard putting a random dash (that has a VIN plate from another car) into another vehicle, to complete a junk car, to sell it off.  They may not have intended to "swap numbers" but they did it through their ignorance of the situation.  

Or they had three dashes and THOUGHT they put the correct one into the car.

[ECS]

There are many scenarios that fall into that type of category.  It could be as simple as a junkyard putting a random dash (that has a VIN plate from another car) into another vehicle, to complete a junk car, to sell it off.  They may not have intended to "swap numbers" but they did it through their ignorance of the situation.  

Or they had three dashes and THOUGHT they put the correct one into the car.

Yes, exactly!  That's a perfect example for that particular subsection of the Law. 

[Troy]

I know all the do-gooders will launch themselves into fits about this, but the fact is this has been happening for decades. Half of the Chargers out there are re-bodies. Your car is probably a rebody, and you don't know it.

Yep very common- a car gets wrecked a guy finds a clean shell in a junkyard (when they could be found in junkyards) and everything gets swapped over.
Individuals, body-shops etc all did it. Totally legal....just not "numbers matching" body panel wise. I know it's beating a dead horse here but is a re-body any less numbers matching than a car that has had both fenders, both quarters, the top, the floors and doors replaced?  Or any combination thereof? 

I guess it really is the difference of "numbers matching" vs. a true "survivor."      

What is illegal is producing a VIN. But if you own a real VIN, legally, you own the car...the rest is just parts. 

Just because it may seem common - it doesn't make it "legal". This is where this conversation always falls apart. People do it. People think it's ok. Until one of them is sitting in jail and they're dumbfounded.

The laws (in most cases I think) are designed for "chop shops" and not the Average Joe building a car in his own garage. But what's the difference if Joe is only doing it to make a pile of money?

Troy

[Troy]

..There's a distinct difference between "upgrading" (swapping parts and paint) and resurrecting a car via VIN swap. And that difference is the part that will put you in jail. What you are doing to your car won't magically quadruple the value. One could argue that putting a 318 VIN on a Hemi car to get it back on the road should be fine - but it never works that way does it? Wonder why...

Troy

Hi Troy, I note the title "Admin" under your username.....this newbie thanks you for the forum that you provide.

I would never buy a genuine Hemi car, the prices those cars achieve is way too high. The reason why? Too many people care about numbers matching. It's a car. With a number on it. And an engine (of some displacement). Those owners made the prices high, by paying the prices. It's their own fault.

You're welcome.

Just because you wouldn't buy one then it's OK for someone who does dream of one to buy a false copy? What if you bought a 318 car with all your hard earned cash and then the police came and took it away because it was stolen and someone just swapped the dash? (I had this exact scenario happen to my friend who bought a 350 Chevelle in high school only to have it confiscated several years later.)

Troy

[moparnation74]

People that just accept a VIN swap or REBODY as being okay to do remind me of drug users. Just because people that YOU associate with do it does not mean that it is everywhere and generally accepted.

[lukedukem]

when these guys do the vin swap. they would have to cut the one off the trunk and radiator support correct?
i imagine that it is not easy to tell if this has been done?

Luke

[ECS]

Just because it may seem common - it doesn't make it "legal".

You are absolutely correct.  Another problem sometimes associated with these discussions, is the arrogance of those who think their opinions dictate law.  There are many things in this Industry that I personally do not "like" but I would never chastise another for their choices in the way they handle their particular affairs.  If it's not unethical or illegal, to each their own! 

[ECS]

People that just accept a VIN swap or REBODY as being okay to do remind me of drug users.

Correct!  You'll find that those who are involved in things like a "VIN Swap" or "Rebody", hide their criminal activities.  My understanding of a "VIN swap" is when someone takes a registered VIN and transfers it to another car.  A "Rebody" is when someone takes an existing damaged vehicle body and swaps its body with another (nicer) body of the same model.  They transfer the identifying VIN information to the different and better body.  In both scenarios, there was an EXISTING CAR that is being cloned to illegally represent a vehicle that had ALREADY EXISTED at one time.

[crj1968]

Just because it may seem common - it doesn't make it "legal". This is where this conversation always falls apart. People do it. People think it's ok. Until one of them is sitting in jail and they're dumbfounded.

I suppose I can agree somewhat- the last two Chargers I bought were both re-bodies. One I'm not sure when it happened the other it happened in late 70's.

I know the  DMV doesn't care. I asked them about it and their answer was does the Vin match the title? Yes. Done.
They really could care less about numbers stamped on the body. One car was from California and to get Idaho title they looked at the dash VIN and that was it.

The thing is- for arguments (or conversations)  sake; lets take the "chop shops" out of the issue, which is what i think these laws are really written for.  How is anyone going to prove how a re-body was done?

It's like joining part A to part B- which part moved?  How to prove it?


I have a friend who owns a 70  340 Challenger. He had title which matched the body stampings and fender tag, but no dash VIN. A company ( maybe ECS?) was able to make him a new dash VIN.
It didn't happen overnight mind you, but it happened. Now if you read the laws about especially part 6 it makes no sense that he would get a VIN tag for it. He should be doing 10 years and $20K fine right? Wrong- he did all the right things and got his VIN tag. The folks at cuda-chall.com wanted his head on a platter! It was insane- honest guy, honest car, VIN missing. The law gave him one.

Is a car numbers matching anymore if the trunk lip and radiator support have been replaced? How about a re-pop rad support with no numbers?

[Drache]

Is a car numbers matching anymore if the trunk lip and radiator support have been replaced? How about a re-pop rad support with no numbers?

There in lies the rub as the saying goes. What is the difference between a "rebody" and having to replace all those parts with new ones on your car? After that how can someone ever prove one was a rebody and the other wasn't?

Getting a car into Canada they simply check the VIN on the dash (or door) against the bill of sale. They don't go crawling up under the car to look for any other VIN stampings.