LS craze vs other engines

[1974dodgecharger]

I still don't understand the LS everything craze  I casually googled how to install LS engines in fords, mopars, nissans, etc... and they all cost a buttload to install due to fabrication. 

[myk]

It's not the conversion that's attractive but the aftermarket support for LS engines and GM engines in general.  Other motors cost more to build and even more to make perform better.   You can go to Pep Boys and buy everything you need for an LS build for less money than the other brands and be just as fast.  LS engines are also plentiful; they're used in many GM products so again there's tons of support and parts.  And hey, if the late 90's taught us anything the LS series is just hard to beat...

[RCCDrew]

I hate the LS engine. Mostly because they are fast, cheap and plentiful. I envy those qualities and wish we had the same opportunity with a new hemi. I went to a car show this weekend and it seemed like every third car has an LS in it.

[funknut]

Notes from a smart guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsmbbuSq9m0

[charger_fan_4ever]

Yup LS engines are bad a$$. Factory alumiminum heads

Looking at an 01 camaro SS now(not a fan really of the gm f body) but makes a cheap toy at 8k. The stock heads have been ported along with the throttle body. Has a cam, longtube headers and exhaust. 410 horsepower to the tire with a dyno sheet and runs mid 11's on drag radials.

I've played in sbf's for years and you need a stroker kit for the 302 plus after market heads cam intake ontop of the LS build to get in same ballpark. The stock F body shortblock will handle most N/A setups.

Im no LS guru but i believe all the gasser pick ups are basically the same engine as in the vettes/f bodys. so they are plentiful. Not sure about head castings in trucks probably steel ? but the ones that came on the vettes and late f bodys 01-02 are the better castings. 243 i believe?

[Troy]

I can get a nice LS engine around here for easily less than $1,000. If you just need something that runs you can get one will all the parts for a few hundred. (I live in the rust belt so we have lots of decent drive trains hidden under piles of rust.) Just like the original 350, GM puts those engines in nearly anything that will hold them. The aftermarket tuning support is amazing. Or you can buy a "crate" from GM with the computer and wiring to install in practically anything for cheap. A friend of my dad builds old street rods and they don't even mess with rebuilding any original engines. They just go straight to the crates. I have several Toyotas and, while it's not "cheap" to do any engine swap, the LS engines are one of the most supported and best bang for the buck (until you break everything else attached to it!). For the most part, car guys are cheap and like simple solutions (and a large number are already in the GM camp).

Not every LS engine or swap is cheap! Particularly when you buy the top of the line stuff and everything new. When you consider a modern Hemi wiring harness can run $2,500, you're in a pretty big hole before you even have any mechanical parts. I've seen LS swaps that cost half of that.

Troy

[DAY CLONA]

I hate the LS engine. Mostly because they are fast, cheap and plentiful.  

I have 2 LS powered vehicles (never thought I'd say/admit that!) even in stock trim they are the equivalent of a 5.7/6.1 Gen3 HEMI performance wise, the aftermarket support is 1000 fold compared to whats offered for the Gen3 HEMI or any other modern Mopar powerplant, as far as cost to transplant an LS, it'll cost you the same for a Gen3, but you'll find there's very little support for the Gen3 swaps, your on your own in some applications/components along with limited component choices

[Mike DC]

Mopar puts out a new V8.  Ten years later they might get around to making a retrofit wiring kit, for $2500. 
GM puts out a new V8.  The retrofit gear is on the shelves, affordably priced, before the first batch of wrecked new GM cars are showing up on Copart.


GM cylinder block - aluminum from the factory.
Mopar cylinder block - iron from the factory, $4400 for the MP alloy version.


GM motor swap - if you're lucky they might make an oil pan & intake to fit your 50yo car.
Mopar motor swap - if you're lucky the motor doesn't have any frustrating unsolvable issues just in stock form.


Junkyard GM motor - several of them at the local Pick & Pull for $200.  They come with a 30-day warranty.
Junkyard Mopar Hemi - gotta find one on Craigslist.  It's at some guy's house, 2 hours away, at 11 o'clock at night, for $1500.  Don't ask about a warranty.


Etc.

[Troy]

         
Mopar puts out a new V8.  Ten years later they might get around to making a retrofit wiring kit, for $2500. 
GM puts out a new V8.  The retrofit gear is on the shelves, affordably priced, before the first batch of wrecked new GM cars are showing up on Copart.


GM cylinder block - aluminum from the factory.
Mopar cylinder block - iron from the factory, $4400 for the MP alloy version.


GM motor swap - if you're lucky they might make an oil pan & intake to fit your 50yo car.
Mopar motor swap - if you're lucky the motor doesn't have any frustrating unsolvable issues just in stock form.


Junkyard GM motor - several of them at the local Pick & Pull for $200.  They come with a 30-day warranty.
Junkyard Mopar Hemi - gotta find one on Craigslist.  It's at some guy's house, 2 hours away, at 11 o'clock at night, for $1500.  Don't ask about a warranty.


Etc.

Part of the aftermarket problem (primarily regarding tuning) is because Mopar locks their computers and won't give anyone the code. Ford and GM supply pre-production units so the after market can create and test their products before the cars ever hit the dealers. This is why you see a lot of piggyback tuners on Mopars while the Ford and Chevy guys get actual plug-n-play parts. Also why a guy with a brand new Mustang can get a supercharger, body kit, and complete suspension before the engine break in period is over.

Troy

[1974dodgecharger]

I guess then the intial install is expnsive, but afterwards its cheap    I was reading an article how excited some dudes were saying how cheap it was to install a LS1 in their car and it costs only 11k, im like 11k really dude that's cheap?  He said the LS1 was 400HP!!!  400 FREAKING hp!!!  they get excited over that??  I watched the Nelson racing engine interview he said a LS1 can pop out 500 to 550HP.  


I guess until I do a conversion and what not I still see it expensive per HP?  I just don't get excited at 500HP unless im doing something wrong here and most of these guys do you can put a 440 together for 3k for 500HP?  

I watched a youtube where they take apart the LS1 and I can see why how strong it is....the LS has 6 bolt mains 4 on the cap and 2 on each side of the cap where HEMI gen 2s have 4 bolt caps 2 on main cap and 2 on each side.  

Im still missing something.......how the GM folks get excited for 500HP.

[JR]

I'm in the pro LS camp.

If your focus is fun,fast,cheap and reliable, it's the way to go. I own one LS and it's been solid.

My truck has the aluminum block, high compression LS based L33 V8. 335 ft/lb torque, and 320ish HP. It only weighs 420lbs.

It's only a few hundred in mods away from 400hp, or two turbos away from 1000+HP.


If the truck ever gets totalled, my plan is to put that engine in a spec Miata chassis and have a fun track car.

400 reliable HP in a 2000lb Spec Miata would be an awesome combo.

[1974dodgecharger]

I'm in the pro LS camp.

If your focus is fun,fast,cheap and reliable, it's the way to go. I own one LS and it's been solid.

My truck has the aluminum block, high compression LS based L33 V8. 335 ft/lb torque, and 320ish HP. It only weighs 420lbs.

It's only a few hundred in mods away from 400hp, or two turbos away from 1000+HP.


If the truck ever gets totalled, my plan is to put that engine in a spec Miata chassis and have a fun track car.

400 reliable HP in a 2000lb Spec Miata would be an awesome combo.

I just don't think they are that cheap as most folk put them out to be unless im missing something  if the LS1 can handle 1k HP for street use I might consider a swap than a HEMI not that I need 1k HP, but its fun to say you have it 800 is fine for me.  Im still researching about them and folks are saying, 'YEAH I can shoot 500 shot of nitrous through a LS1 and who cares if I blow it up I can go to a junkyard and them for 200 bucks and get one in my car in one day!!!  Where are these 200 dollar LS1s at the junk yard?

[Mike DC]

 
They can go down to $200 if you include the various versions of the LS series.  Of course you're not gonna get the most desirable ones for that. 



420 lbs for an aluminum LS.  

Compared to that, a stock 440 means driving around with a 250 lb guy sitting on the hood, all the time.  



As for the swap - I'm surprised about $11k.  I've heard it being done for far less.  

Maybe it takes $11k if you buy a brand new crate motor LS, convert a muscle car's gas tank & fuel lines to EFI for it, get an electronic controller for a modern tranny, etc.  

[charger_fan_4ever]

Depends on the area. Around here you can pick up a stockish 98-02 Z28 plated and driving for 4-5k with a t-56.
As far as the swap goes i hear you its not that cheap if your buying a crate engine and all the extras.

Ls6 vette longblock is like $5500 now. Then you need wiring ect ect. If building from scratch and buying new ya your prob into it for 8k for 400 hp.

[funknut]

A complete crate LS7 is probably around $11-12k, but if you want cheap, reliable power...

- $500 for a junkyard 5.3 or 6.0
- $400 turbo
- $200 wastegate
- boost controller
- $300 for cam and springs
- intercooler or meth injection depending on boost levels
- pipe it all together
- injectors and fuel pump depending on HP goals

Depending on your fab skills and how much you can source cheap (junkyard) and you're near 800 crank HP for less than $2500.

Stock LS bottom ends will take 12-20 pounds of boost all day.

To give you an idea of what the turbo LS community is able to do with stock LS motors with 150k miles:

https://sites.google.com/site/sloppywiki/sloppy-builds/colorado

[funknut]

Couldn't find this article earlier, but here you go.  1200 HP from a 4.8L junker w/ stock bottom end.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-1109-stock-gm-ls-engine-big-bang-theory/

[1974dodgecharger]

Couldn't find this article earlier, but here you go.  1200 HP from a 4.8L junker w/ stock bottom end.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-1109-stock-gm-ls-engine-big-bang-theory/

WOW just wow......

[RCCDrew]

What would it take to get my 440 to be able to handle 1200 hp?

[garner7555]

What would it take to get my 440 to be able to handle 1200 hp?

The issue is when you want to make that power for more than just a temporary dyno run.  If you want to make that level of power consistantly and reliably then you would need an aftermarket block and all aftermarket internals.  Nothing original from the 440 would be used.      

But if you only care to make that power for a short race/dyno run and don't mind blowing your engine then just throw a lot of boost and nitrous at it.       

[1974dodgecharger]

What would it take to get my 440 to be able to handle 1200 hp?

what Garner just said.....the wedge blocks are maxed out at 700HP and that's on very few blocks so you have to get it tested and make sure you have a EXCELLENT BLOCK!!!  It will last a few seconds at 1200HP in the end of the day you want 1200 you have to go HEMI.

[funknut]

What would it take to get my 440 to be able to handle 1200 hp?

About $39k, but it won't be a 440 anymore. 

http://nelsonracingengines.com/pricesheets/chrysler/dailydriver/tt/dds_572chryswedge_tt.pdf

[1974dodgecharger]

What would it take to get my 440 to be able to handle 1200 hp?

About $39k, but it won't be a 440 anymore. 

http://nelsonracingengines.com/pricesheets/chrysler/dailydriver/tt/dds_572chryswedge_tt.pdf

I would still opt for the HEMI at that price, lol....

[adauto]

yeeeowza!

[SRT-440]

You can get a 5.3 LS with harness and 4L60E with low milage for $2500. Get a $200 tune and about $300 fuel upgrades and u can put it in anything. Even the motor mounts are adjustable so they will work in any car.

Now, my 6.1 Hemi cost $6K for the engine alone, $3300 FAST XFI 2.0, $700 tti headers, tons of cutting and trimming, $600 fuel system. But, it runs like a new car and is fast..it's rated at 425hp stock and prolly only puts down around 360 rwhp..but runs 12 flat on street tires and gets 23mpg.
5.7 can be had for around $1500 but u sacrifice a little power..but the money u save can be invested in power adders.

[1974dodgecharger]

You can get a 5.3 LS with harness and 4L60E with low milage for $2500. Get a $200 tune and about $300 fuel upgrades and u can put it in anything. Even the motor mounts are adjustable so they will work in any car.

Now, my 6.1 Hemi cost $6K for the engine alone, $3300 FAST XFI 2.0, $700 tti headers, tons of cutting and trimming, $600 fuel system. But, it runs like a new car and is fast..it's rated at 425hp stock and prolly only puts down around 360 rwhp..but runs 12 flat on street tires and gets 23mpg.
5.7 can be had for around $1500 but u sacrifice a little power..but the money u save can be invested in power adders.

hey I think I know you on facebook, lmao...

[SRT-440]

You can get a 5.3 LS with harness and 4L60E with low milage for $2500. Get a $200 tune and about $300 fuel upgrades and u can put it in anything. Even the motor mounts are adjustable so they will work in any car.

Now, my 6.1 Hemi cost $6K for the engine alone, $3300 FAST XFI 2.0, $700 tti headers, tons of cutting and trimming, $600 fuel system. But, it runs like a new car and is fast..it's rated at 425hp stock and prolly only puts down around 360 rwhp..but runs 12 flat on street tires and gets 23mpg.
5.7 can be had for around $1500 but u sacrifice a little power..but the money u save can be invested in power adders.

hey I think I know you on facebook, lmao...

LOL! Indeed.

[RCCDrew]

Another line of thinking may be a second gen Cummins. Heavy duty out of the box and able to handle 50 lbs of boost from the factory. 10 second cummins trucks are pretty common.

[charger_fan_4ever]

Another line of thinking may be a second gen Cummins. Heavy duty out of the box and able to handle 50 lbs of boost from the factory. 10 second cummins trucks are pretty common.

Handle 50lbs of boost yet missed the boat on a simple concept as a fuel pump. Speaking 24v world. Mounting a pusher pump to act as a suction pump thats adequeate enought to feed a honda civic bad news lol. They should have gone back to the drawing board there.

I have a FASS DDRP mounted in stock location on my 2002 and it can't even adequetly supply the Vp with an edge juice thats not even pump tapped yet......

[Mike DC]

        
Do you guys know how much a Cummins weighs?

[ws23rt]

There is always room for more.---Bigger is better and in some cases one only needs to add wheels to have the most.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QWT2bXKo24

[RCCDrew]

       
Do you guys know how much a Cummins weighs?

9 second quarter miles and 1500 hp IS pretty funny.

http://www.trucktrend.com/features/1508-9-second-2003-dodge-ram-cummins-diesel-drag-race-truck/

[Mike DC]

      
I'm not thinking about quarter mile performance, I'm thinking about the car's frame collapsing.  

Our old Charger unibodies were designed for 600-800 lbs worth of drivetrain on the front end.  The 24v Cummins engine/tranny combo weighs more like 1300 lbs.  It's like running a 440 with an extra 360 motor piled on top of it.




Sorry to be snarky about it.  It's just that the structural issues, combined with the crazy handling drawbacks that couldn't be solved, and it would still have the inherent costs of swapping any modern engine into an old car . . . it seems like way more trouble than it's worth.  

(But I'm sure some people out there have done it.  People have done everything with popular old cars.)

[1974dodgecharger]

     
I'm not thinking about quarter mile performance, I'm thinking about the car's frame collapsing.  

Our old Charger unibodies were designed for 600-800 lbs worth of drivetrain on the front end.  The 24v Cummins engine/tranny combo weighs more like 1300 lbs.  It's like running a 440 with an extra 360 motor piled on top of it.




Sorry to be snarky about it.  It's just that the structural issues, combined with the crazy handling drawbacks that couldn't be solved, and it would still have the inherent costs of swapping any modern engine into an old car . . . it seems like way more trouble than it's worth.  

(But I'm sure some people out there have done it.  People have done everything with popular old cars.)

There was a guy in Vegas he parked near me had a Cummins in his Cuda it was pretty damn cool he drove out blowing coals, lmao...then here I was with a blower belt with oil on it because my oild slung around felt so embarrassed leaving like a dipsht!!!! behind him 

[Troy]

And Cummins are hardly budget in any way. Yes, they are popular enough but nothing anywhere close to LS engines. The 12 valves are simple for the most part but once you go 24 valve you have a whole new set of problems.

Troy

[SRT-440]

Cant beat LS swaps for performance and being cheap. But, I almost put a Toyota 2JZ twin turbo in my '70 Satellite. Wouldnt have been cheap, but it would have been different and put down around 1500hp-ish.

[Troy]

Ran across this today in my inbox:

Chevrolet Performance has worked closely with the California Air Resources Board (CARB) to secure emissions approval for these high-horsepower, high performance engines. These Chevrolet Performance LS3 6.2L E-Rod crate engines are the first crate engines of their kind to be certified 50-state emissions compliant. With their stunning combination of horsepower and efficiency, these Chevrolet Performance LS3 E-Rod crate engines are perfect for the race track or just cruising around town in your street rod or musclecar.

Features include:
* 6.2L LS3 engine with 430 hp and 425 ft.-lbs. of torque
* Engine wiring harness
* Engine control module with emissions-legal calibration
* Catalytic converters
* Exhaust manifolds
* Oxygen sensors and sensor bosses
* Fuel tank evaporative emissions canister
* Air filter
* MAF sensor
* Accelerator pedal
* Instruction manual

$7,463.97

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nal-19257230

So, basically everything to make it run in your car (except fuel delivery) AND pass emissions in all 50 states. Aluminum block as well. This one is for use with one of their OD automatic transmissions. Here's Chevy's specs:
http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/e-rod-ls3.html

Troy

[az69b5charger]

I have no problem with LS engines. In fact I've been thinking about and researching what it takes to do an LS swap to my 2000 Dakota R/T. The stock and even modded 5.9s are pigs in terms of performance, fuel economy, and money spent vs gains. A 4.8/5.3/6.0 with a cam would destroy anything I could ever do to this 360, be more driveable, would cost half the price, and get better mileage. Screw the closed minded, immature, brand loyal nonsense.

[Troy]

I have no problem with LS engines. In fact I've been thinking about and researching what it takes to do an LS swap to my 2000 Dakota R/T. The stock and even modded 5.9s are pigs in terms of performance, fuel economy, and money spent vs gains. A 4.8/5.3/6.0 with a cam would destroy anything I could ever do to this 360, be more driveable, would cost half the price, and get better mileage. Screw the closed minded, immature, brand loyal nonsense.

I have had both a 5.3 Chevy and a 5.9 Magnum. Maybe I haven't done enough research but I don't see that big of a difference (compared to the amount of work/hassle). EXCEPT price. The Magnum engine was one of the reasons I wrote off going to the dealer for parts (the other being my 99 Cummins). When no one else was making parts for Magnums Chrysler decided the smart move would be to quadruple the price on everything (primarily valves, springs, and retainers). I went the other way and bought a set of heads that would take Chevy hardware. Now other places have decided to compete with Chrysler pricing and basically took the market share. But any way, a 5.9 with good heads (even just the Iron Ram versions), exhaust, and intake is no slouch. If that doesn't do it, stroker cranks are cheap! But then you run into the next hurdle which is electronics (assuming you want to keep EFI). Mopar sucks with regards to performance tuning. I guess if you're going to go with MS or some other after market controller then it doesn't matter which engine you put it on - but I'd think the chassis wiring would be less complicated than an LS swap.

But if I was going to go through all that trouble for a pickup truck I'd just sell the Dakota and start with something else.

Troy

[HPP]

I have 2 LS powered vehicles (never thought I'd say/admit that!) even in stock trim they are the equivalent of a 5.7/6.1 Gen3 HEMI performance wise, the aftermarket support is 1000 fold compared to whats offered for the Gen3 HEMI or any other modern Mopar powerplant, as far as cost to transplant an LS, it'll cost you the same for a Gen3, but you'll find there's very little support for the Gen3 swaps, your on your own in some applications/components along with limited component choices

I have an LS and a 5.7 G3 and my experience is the opposite. The G3 seems far more powerful than the LS in it stock, truck application.  I can certainly remedy that in teh LS department for a couple of grand, I just have got around to it yet.

Love em or hate em, the proliferation of GM power plants and their low cost of entry has always been enviable.