handling help needed

[poppa]

Hello all , I (maybe wrong choice) put my car back together with all 'new' stock stuff. I was hoping to get it to handle better and that is not the case. I was thinking about the weld on braces for the lower control arms , anyone seen a difference with this? Also , I remember seeing something somewhere about welding some kind of "gussets" on the k frame , anyone have any info on this?? I am also planning on a Firm Feel power steering box. I have some Goodyear Eagle ST' s P205's on the front always checking tire pressure cuz they always seem low but are ok. They say max load 1443 , if all 4 are rated at that they would be ok for a 4000 lb car , correct? I didn't see an actual 'load rating' , I thought there would be. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks for reading this far.

[Kern Dog]

It is hard for me to concentrate with that picture of the woman up there. The sun shining through the hoo-hah has me thinking of things other than how a car handles...

[JR]

Post up some more details of your car. Year, pics, specs, etc.

The basic problem is all vintage Mopars were under sprung/dampened, don't have enough caster/camber to take full advantage of modern tires, and had terrible weight distribution for starters. Chassis bracing is always helpful, but that alone won't suddenly fix the handling.

What size Torsion bars/rear springs/sway bar do you have?

[adauto]

Every little bit helps, but the best improvement overall on my car was a combination of parts. Subframe connecters/level 3 steering box/boxing a-arms/ BIGger T-bars/ shocks/ offset bushings/BIGger sway bar/greasable pins/adjustable strut rods..... if I'd upgrade my ol' BFG's it prolly be much better.... 

[poppa]

Everything is stock size ,T-bars , sway bar , has frame connectors. Shocks can't have 10,000 miles on them. I was thinking about the bigger sway bar. Thanks for the quick replies

adauto-boxing a-arms?

jr-69 ,440 4 spd , originally a 383

kern dog-focus 

[Lennard]

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,16449.0.html

[myk]

Everything is stock size ,T-bars , sway bar , has frame connectors. Shocks can't have 10,000 miles on them. I was thinking about the bigger sway bar. Thanks for the quick replies

adauto-boxing a-arms?

jr-69 ,440 4 spd , originally a 383

kern dog-focus  

Since you're obviously not going for the wanna-be track star setup like my car I can tell that you will be 100% satisfied with a fat front sway bar, a rear sway bar, and quality shocks like the Bilsteins or Hotchkis units.  Your car will handle much better than it did before with just those few pieces added on.  Oh BTW what tires are you running?  If you're using something like BF Goodrich TA's like most muscle car guys do, that also affects handling potential...

[lukedukem]

Are bfg tires not good to run as far as handling?  What's a good alternative. In size 225/70r15

Luke

[poppa]

On the front I have Googyear Eagle ST's , P205. They usually look low (on pressure) but are usually at correct pressure. I will be changing tires/wheels after I install my new leaf springs and see if they still "rub" when I hit a good bump.

[HPP]

adauto-boxing a-arms?

You seem to really key in on this and for some reason. This would be one of the last mods ever needed and only if you run a massive front sway bar.

What do you want to accomplish and what do you see as improved handling, what is the budget you want to get there, and how  modern are you willing to go on the rims/tires?

I ask because  if you just want to step up a bit, bigger sway bars might be all you need, but if you want to push it further, than more significant mods are in order. The budget becomes a big part of this as you've recently  dropped  some coin on stock stuff and a large % of that now needs to go to the scrap bin, so you going to be buying new parts all over. Wheels and tires then become the connection to put all this to the road. Your 205s aren't going to hold up to diddly squat in a corner and wheels and tires can be the biggest expense of the whole project.

[poppa]

Lennard , Yes those are what I was thinking about. Thanks

It appears that Magnum place is out of business???

[poppa]

HPP , I would go the bolt on route first before a lot of welding happens. Just looking for some opinions/suggestions on what has worked for others. For $20-25 bucks though , if members have had good luck with boxing the LCA's , it seems like a no brainer. I am in no hurry. I have been leaning towards the bigger sway bar , maybe a rear one , the steering box and a steering (maybe the bearing??) support upgrade that I saw somewhere. As I mentioned , tires rims will be switched after I see how the new leafs pan out with the occasional tire rubbing.

Thanks for all the replies so far!

[Lennard]

Lennard , Yes those are what I was thinking about. Thanks

It appears that Magnum place is out of business???

You can buy those plates at different places, like mancini racing,  just suspension,  firm feel,  etc.

[myk]

Are bfg tires not good to run as far as handling?  What's a good alternative. In size 225/70r15

Luke

They're a very hard tire that doesn't have any grip; some people here refer to them as hockey pucks.  I'll probably try something from Nitto next; that's the generic choice for people seeking a budget handing tire.

I've learned that wheels and especially tires are critical.  Even if you made no other changes to suspension a sticky tire will make a difference.  Of course if you're an idiot like me that changed the suspension  but kept the crappy tire then you're SOL...

[adauto]

Everything is stock size ,T-bars , sway bar , has frame connectors. Shocks can't have 10,000 miles on them. I was thinking about the bigger sway bar. Thanks for the quick replies

adauto-boxing a-arms?

jr-69 ,440 4 spd , originally a 383

kern dog-focus 

Yes, and was easy to do 

[JR]

Well, I'm chasing the same thing with a 2nd gen, better handling. Here's my thread from my last autocross. I've been installing suspension upgrades gradually, then testing them on the autoX to test the difference.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,123877.0.html

My car sounds similar to yours. Here's the route I'm going.

17 /18 inch wheels. I don't know how commited to the old 15s you are (alot of Mopar guys are for some reason),  but modern tires in good compounds are invaluable. There is no comparison between a 15inch BFG ta and a 17inch summer tire. It's night and day. More traction, less tire rollover, less understeer, more predictable, night and day difference. There's a reason new vipers don't come with BFG TAs.

Offset UCA bushings or adjustable upper control arms- Caster/camber are your friends with modern rubber. You won't get much of either with stock a arms and bushings. Bias ply tires and manual steering liked 0 camber and negative caster. Modern tires and 80mph highways today are totally opposite. Positive Caster will help the steering feel more planted/solid at speed, and help the wheel return to center. More negative camber will allow the full contact patch of the tires to touch the ground when the body is leaning over in a corner.

Proper front/ rear sway bars. I have a Hellwig 1 3/8th up front and an adjustable 7/8ths bar out back. These alone(with modern 17 inch tires) COMPLETELY changed the way the car behaved. It went from a wallowing, understeering, sloppy pig, to a fun, more responsive, controlled car that can be steered with the throttle.

Proper shocks. There are some blisteins that are pretty popular, they run 400 for all 4. Pricey, yes, but they are important. They're the second half of your suspension, they keep the springs under control after bumps. Without them, the springs would bounce continuously when they hit bumps, breaking your tires contact with the road. Huge difference in quality between parts house cheapies and proper performance shocks.

There's more, but I would start there. The subframe/a arm/chassis bracing will be beneficial, but I wouldn't get hung up on that yet. The stock suspension tuning is so bad, you aren't anywhere near stressing the car bad enough to notice any difference braced/unbraced.

You won't really feel any difference there until you actually make the suspension do its job properly, and start generating grip.

[HPP]

I'd agree with JR.

Chasing handling can get expensive quick, so lacking a defined budget and looking at simple bolt ons, I'd follow his advice; wheels/tires, shocks, sway bars. If, after that you want more, then we can start getting into incremental improvements.

[Mike DC]

          

The subframe/a arm/chassis bracing will be beneficial, but I wouldn't get hung up on that yet. The stock suspension tuning is so bad, you aren't anywhere near stressing the car bad enough to notice any difference braced/unbraced.

Chassis bracing matters for the ride quality & the long term condition of the car, as much as for handling.  I would do that first if it was mine.  

A 440/4spd can flex the unibody with 7" wide wheels and normal tires.  Unibody stiffness is partially why modern cars feel so "tight" in the fit & finish.  It's not strictly necessary but it's money well spent. 

[303 Mopar]

         

The subframe/a arm/chassis bracing will be beneficial, but I wouldn't get hung up on that yet. The stock suspension tuning is so bad, you aren't anywhere near stressing the car bad enough to notice any difference braced/unbraced.

Chassis bracing matters for the ride quality & the long term condition of the car, as much as for handling.  I would do that first if it was mine.  

A 440/4spd can flex the unibody with 7" wide wheels and normal tires.  Unibody stiffness is partially why modern cars feel so "tight" in the fit & finish.  It's not strictly necessary but it's money well spent.  

I installed subframes on my 440 Charger recently and it made a huge difference for overall tightness of the car, door/windows fit better, and less rattles.  Big bang for your buck.

[JR]

By all means, I support the chassis bracing, but I don't think he should be focused on addition bracing right now. He already has subframe connectors. If he's pursuing better handling, I vote for correcting the wrong spring/shocks/sway bars & tires before prioritizing boxed a arms and torque boxes.

No argument from me on the beneficial effects of stiffening the car, though.

[303 Mopar]

By all means, I support the chassis bracing, but I don't think he should be focused on addition bracing right now. He already has subframe connectors. If he's pursuing better handling, I vote for correcting the wrong spring/shocks/sway bars & tires before prioritizing boxed a arms and torque boxes.

No argument from me on the beneficial effects of stiffening the car, though.

I missed that in his other post - I agree with the above springs, shocks, sway bars and tires first.  I would add a good set of front disc brakes too if you don't have them already.

[garner7555]

I agree with JR, bigger torsion bars, sway bars, better shocks, and tires.  Try that first, if you want more then move on to tubular control arms, Hotchkis rear springs, and more chassis stiffening.     

[c00nhunterjoe]

A 2 ton car will never handle on a 205 tire. If you want "spirited" cornering, then you will need a 245 up front.
   I had 245/60/15s on the front of mine with all stock suspension components. .1degree toe in, .4 neg camber, 3.5° positive caster and lowered power steering pressure. Handled great through the corners. Autocross- no, spirited street- yes.
   Tubular upper control arms will give you the ability for about 5 degrees of caster, well worth the 300 bucks a pair.  Weld on subframe connectors literally make it a totaly different car alone.

[poppa]

Thanks for all the suggestions/replies.

JR - Yes I have some trouble with my steering wheel coming back to center. It usually doesn't want to.

[fizz]

Last weekend first time pushed my newly built car w/us car tool subframe connectors, torque boxes, radiator support reinforcement and fender apron to firewall braces. Hotchkiss upper control arms, front sway bar, nonadjustable fox shocks, and torsion bars. Addco sway bar on the back, 245/17 and 275/18 conti contact tires. Firm feel stage 2 power steering box. Hydroboost brakes w/cordoba disc brake conversion on front and drum rear. Amazing. As good as my kids 2010 ss Camaro. IMO

[Mike DC]

JR - Yes I have some trouble with my steering wheel coming back to center. It usually doesn't want to

People normally assume this is related to the steering box but it's really the caster alignment that needs to change.  The factory designed these cars with 0 degrees of caster to make it easier to park cars with manual steering.  More degrees of caster equals more natural tendency to re-center itself when you let go of the steering wheel.  (Think about a bicycle - give it a shove & let go . . . the more the front fork angles back, the more the bike naturally tries to roll straight.)

Rick Ehrenberg (Mopar Action magazine) once wrote that he didn't think you should push these cars much over 3-4 degrees of caster.  Some modern vehicles have more but they also have different geometries in other ways.

[c00nhunterjoe]

The problem with going much over 4 or 5 degrees is the ball joint angles, specifically the lower. It will have it nearly in a bind as you increase caster. A custom set of arms would be needed to properly center the ball joints for normal street use if you wanted much more. But just going from 0 to 4 degrees alone is like having a new car.

[fizz]

With my tubular upper control arms I couldn't get past 4 degrees caster anyway, but still huge difference.

[myk]

Does that mean that my 6.5* of positive caster might cause problems later?  I'm running the Hotchkis UCA's...

[fizz]

I wouldn't think so myk, if it works it works. Put 6 degrees on a straight axle project hot rod and works good. For some reason, the wheel alignment shop who did my charger couldn't get more than 4.

[myk]

I wouldn't think so myk, if it works it works. Put 6 degrees on a straight axle project hot rod and works good. For some reason, the wheel alignment shop who did my charger couldn't get more than 4.

That makes no sense.  All that geometry and numbers and science down there lol...

[redgum78]

Adjustable upper control arms would be my first addition. The extra caster makes a big difference.

[HPP]

In ideal circumstances, you want .5-1* more caster than that Spindle Axis Inclination. Since the old mopar disc spindle has 6-6.5* SAI, this would translate to 7-8* of positive caster in an old mopar. This creates the greatest amount of tire contact through suspension articulation and body roll,  but as pointed out by MikeDc and coonhunterjoe, there are other factors to consider as well if you are pursuing ultimate as opposed to adequate.  For the vast majority of us, getting 3-4* positive caster is world changing in these cars.

Again, you never quoted us a budget or timeline so we are swagging things here. Tubular arms are great but pricey. Offset bushings are inexpensive, but don't provide as great a range. $300 spent on tube arms, compared to $30 spent on bushings, may defer your budget from other important items. If cost is inmaterial, then just keep adding parts to these lists and do it. Heck, to save headaches, just order up a Hotchkis TVS package and put it on.

[poppa]

The budget keeps getting smaller and smaller.

Would a 245 tire fit on the same rim as my 205?

Ran across this , looked kinda cool.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrsEfWtrShM

May try the 245's ,and adjusting caster/camber if I can find the tool for a good price. Otherwise I'll take it in when I can. What should I shoot for then , 4* caster seems like the magic number. What would camber need to be , I'm sure when I had it done they went by the book.

[HPP]

Ask them to try and hit '05 Mustang GT specs so they have something to look up in their computer. They wont be able to hit these, but it is a compromise to get some thing they can pull up on their system to shoot for.

This translates to as much positive caster as possible. Realistically, this will probably be no more than 4-5* positive. You want some negative camber, -.5 to 1*. Toe in should be .1* or around 1/16". Positive toe is toe in, negative is toe out. Unless you are racing, you don't want toe out.

What width is your current wheel? 205 recommended width is 5-7". 245 recommended width is 6-8" If you have a 6" wide rim, you can squeeze a 245 on there and maintain decent pressure. If you use a narrower rim, then you risk crowning the tread at regular pressures. To get full tread contact you would have to run lower pressure which then makes for softer sidewalls, which is a bit counter productive to improving handling.

[Mike DC]

   
Wider rims (for a given tread width) are a good idea if you can afford it at some later date. 

The low-rider crowd takes it to a stupid extreme but you can see the principle here.  There's no way this tread can move very much laterally during cornering:

[poppa]

This car hates me. It just gets worse and worse. Put in my new leaf springs and as soon as it was on the floor I was like ,this is lower now. Yep , rear still rubs when I hit a bump , even more now I think. I'll start a new thread for this problem as I have some questions.

While letting my car down ( had all four corners up so I could pull my fuel sender to figure out why my gauge doesn't work correctly , didn't do after I recalculated and figured I had too much gas left ,19 gallon tank ,right?) , I noticed my drivers side front tire has almost no tread left on the inside of the tire. So I guess I'll start with new tires and an alignment and work my way up to a bigger sway bar ,torsion bars and maybe a Firm Feel steering box. Seeing as I am going for better handling ,what are some better choices for tires? Thanks and Happy Fathers day to all...

[garner7555]

If you have the cash to upgrade those parts before alignment then it would save you some money because the car will need an alignment after changing torsion bars or the steering box.       You could however add the sway bar without needing another alignment.    PST has some 1.03' torsion bars for little over $200 (fairly reasonable), unless you want to go bigger (bigger = stiffer).       
That is a good list of upgrades in my opinion.       
As far as tires go it really depends on your budget.   I have heard that you can't beat Michelin Pilot Super Sports or Pilot Sports, but they aren't exactly cheap.       Nitto also makes a good option.

[HPP]

Since you mentioned Goodyear Eagle STs earlier, I'll assume you have 15" rims. Don't  know how wide you rim is if you are consider a 235/245 size. Combined with those two parameters, best tire you can get will likely be a Mickey Thompson SR, 26x8x15.