Superbird NOS Nosecone

[500Jon]

Just seen a NOS Birdy nosecone for sale.
Factory number 3571192 a steel @ $14,500...

[hemi68charger]

Wow !!!!

[DAY CLONA]

Wow !!!!

Sometimes that "Wow" turns to an "Oh boy!", I had a few customers over the years that bought NOS Tona and Superbird nosecones only to find that the grille screen openings were not able to accept stock/repro grille frames, or after painting them and assembling them without a trial fit, found that the cone was dimensionally smaller/larger mating to the fenders/hood, or that the cones lacked the latch tray receiving areas, so fabrication, or custom made components had to be made...NOS doesn't always mean perfect, esp wingcar parts as most were hand made, and I would tend to think the rejects at time of production were cast to the side as NOS, as body shops and dealers had the time to make alterations with poor fitting parts

Mke

[odcics2]

That being said, the only correct looking wing car parts would not be perfect.

Original wings, for example, have some pits in the surface and slight waves. 

Nosecones had a poor fit. Any cars out there where it all looks perfect, is "wrong".   

A "perfect" wing car would be over restored.   

Yes, perfect looks better!!!    But it's not original looking in appearance. 

All depends on what a guy wants or appreciates...     

Same goes for "original" paint jobs with runs, sags, etc. versus the show car look. 
   

[DAY CLONA]

That being said, the only correct looking wing car parts would not be perfect.

Original wings, for example, have some pits in the surface and slight waves.  

Nosecones had a poor fit. Any cars out there where it all looks perfect, is "wrong".  

A "perfect" wing car would be over restored.    

Yes, perfect looks better!!!    But it's not original looking in appearance.  

All depends on what a guy wants or appreciates...    

Same goes for "original" paint jobs with runs, sags, etc. versus the show car look.  
 

We all know the wingcar production/parts suffered from poor fit/finish, either due to the poor parts/workmanship, but there's been extremes, I had one Gent in NY that had bought a NOS Superbird cone , and purchased a repro grille frame from me, of course he called to say the grille frame wasn't even close to fitting, after a number of picks/measurement his grill frame opening was only 22 1/2" wide compared to the "standard" 24" wide opening, and there wasn't much that could be done to correct the grill opening, other than making him a custom sized grille... and I've been sent a variety of NOS latch trays to "correct" over the years that were simply amazing as to the differences in shape and irregularities in forming, as well as a few NOS Tona grille frames, we all know the nose fit was poor to horrible in most cases, but I've been involved in some NOS cone repairs where the cone was totally constructed either to wide width wise or to tall/short height wise to even be usable/mountable on the car, these cones were hand corked from steel sheet and assembled by 3-4 man work crews, not nice steel die stamping merely tacked together...so error and fatigue, and I'm sure monotony of making nose cones all day made for some interesting examples  

[bannedbird]

Who said the wings had "little waves"? LOL. Mine had a LOT of waves in the aluminum casting. I left them on the inner face (which was much worse than the outer face).  I don't think the outer face of casting was too bad. Looked fine after being painted (B5).
I am looking for a used nose in case anyone hears of one. Any condition. NOS probably too rich for me. Thx.

[odcics2]

Thought the cones were made off Kirksite dies??   
The upper on a Daytona, being one piece, would have had the grill opening stamped the same for all cones...   

[DAY CLONA]

Thought the cones were made off Kirksite dies??  
The upper on a Daytona, being one piece, would have had the grill opening stamped the same for all cones...    

Yes they were corked/formed off Kirksite dies, Kirksite(zinc/aluminum alloy) unlike steel tooling is softer, and more prone to it's shape altering thru a production run, kirksite was chosen because it was cheap, and easily repaired if damaged/dulled from tooling on

[odcics2]

I have the original cone for the #88.  I also have a 'race' cone that was stamped out during the '70 season.
I'll get some pics and dimensions for the grill opening.

Now, I'm curious to see the difference in a cone made in the early summer of 69, versus one made after the production run was done.

[Aero426]

Having had four NOS Bird noses through my hands over the years, I have never seen one that didn't fit the lower grille frames.  The last one I had was put on a customer car by Mike Mancini.   There were no complaints.  On some, yes, you have to add a latch tray bracket. 

[Redbird]

Let's separate items that are well documented to have happened from the not well documented to have happened/urban legend.

On Daytona's it seems there were multiple paint issues, the root cause being because of the sequence of how the cars were built. Another item was the XX on the fender tags, again because of the process of how the cars were built.

On Superbirds, the difference in lacquer vs. enamel paint in car finish items is documented from the factory and in pictures of cars-especially in certain colors-from back in the day up to and including now. The wings on Superbirds have various fabrication issues including grinding marks. Superbird fender scoops seem to have 2 different shapes, one more flat on top, one more rounded on top.

On Superbirds or Daytona's, from what I have seen, there is little to no evidence that cars in any quantity beyond 1 or 2 were converted at a dealership in 1969-1971 back to their respective base car, before being sold new. Mike, I fault you here because you seem to have knowingly stirred the pot over the years with pictures of Superbirds that were cobbled together after accidents with their respective base cars parts. Mike, I believe you are the most knowledgeable fabricator of wing car parts, bar none. How does one know if sometimes what you are a proponent of is just something for sport?

Back to the nosecones. It is well documented that the dies were Kirksite; prone to damage, needing periodic repair, and also having a quality control issue of human labor forming the metal to them. I haven't seen much evidence presented that actual large batches of delivered cars in the 1969-1970 period had grill openings wildly off size. Just a guess here that the assembly workers in the sub assembly process were a kind of rudimentary quality check; any cones not having the grill frames to fit in some type of proper manner did not have any further progress towards the sub assembly process. Could some individual cars from the factory have a mismatch? Probably.

Cars that had accidents on the street were, very likely to have dimensional issues in the grill areas.

Did over the counter parts have dimensional issues? Very likely with nose cones. Especially if they were rejected for the assembly line cars. Dimensional issues in over the counter parts are well documented on other parts, so they very likely occurred on nosecones. Nosecones sold over the counter were also likely as good quality as assembly line items also.

If  someone is buying a over the counter nose cone, some well informed measurements before the sale seem like a very prudent idea.    

[DAY CLONA]

Let's separate items that are well documented to have happened from the not well documented to have happened/urban legend.

On Daytona's it seems there were multiple paint issues, the root cause being because of the sequence of how the cars were built. Another item was the XX on the fender tags, again because of the process of how the cars were built.

On Superbirds, the difference in lacquer vs. enamel paint in car finish items is documented from the factory and in pictures of cars-especially in certain colors-from back in the day up to and including now. The wings on Superbirds have various fabrication issues including grinding marks. Superbird fender scoops seem to have 2 different shapes, one more flat on top, one more rounded on top.

On Superbirds or Daytona's, from what I have seen, there is little to no evidence that cars in any quantity beyond 1 or 2 were converted at a dealership in 1969-1971 back to their respective base car, before being sold new. Mike, I fault you here because you seem to have knowingly stirred the pot over the years with pictures of Superbirds that were cobbled together after accidents with their respective base cars parts. Mike, I believe you are the most knowledgeable fabricator of wing car parts, bar none. How does one know if sometimes what you are a proponent of is just something for sport?

Back to the nosecones. It is well documented that the dies were Kirksite; prone to damage, needing periodic repair, and also having a quality control issue of human labor forming the metal to them. I haven't seen much evidence presented that actual large batches of delivered cars in the 1969-1970 period had grill openings wildly off size. Just a guess here that the assembly workers in the sub assembly process were a kind of rudimentary quality check; any cones not having the grill frames to fit in some type of proper manner did not have any further progress towards the sub assembly process. Could some individual cars from the factory have a mismatch? Probably.

Cars that had accidents on the street were, very likely to have dimensional issues in the grill areas.

Did over the counter parts have dimensional issues? Very likely with nose cones. Especially if they were rejected for the assembly line cars. Dimensional issues in over the counter parts are well documented on other parts, so they very likely occurred on nosecones. Nosecones sold over the counter were also likely as good quality as assembly line items also.

If  someone is buying a over the counter nose cone, some well informed measurements before the sale seem like a very prudent idea.    

G. I made no mention of "production" cars having monumental grille frame issues (although some production SB's exhibit a real lousy fit ), my reference is to NOS wingcar parts, replicating said parts, puts me constantly seeking examples, NOS, used and repro for comparisons/observations, plus when not actively seeking said parts, customers/shops send me used and NOS components for repair or completion so I see a lot more than perhaps the avg enthusiasts or restorer, another example is NOS light piviots, I been sent about a half dozen sets over the last decade or so because they were only faceplates, missing the outer arms, the vacuum pivot arm, and in some cases the headlight cup spring brace, I've been sent NOS latchtrays either badly formed or missing the safety latch hole, plus an assortment of other NOS parts over the years that had some form of production malady or missing component(s)

On another note: if categorizing various differences in production parts, noting what you've listed, I'll add that I've seen 2 different styles of fiberglass outer doors, now whether this was a multiple vendors creation?, or a production change?, an NOS release?, or a SB vs Tona attribute?, I don't know, but 2 slightly different head light outer doors exist....also 3 different steel pivot door designs exist,... and also 2 different Z bar designs (this would be the NOS "crash bar" released in the early 70's for Tona or SB usage), regardless as to whether they are SB or Tona', as a SB bar is nothing more than a Tona' bar minus the front directional attachment....

Ok,Ok,....I'll plead guilty to fanning the fire on posting pics of converted wincars back to their "original" designation, ...don't shoot the messenger! ...And I'll plead guilty to fanning the 70 Daytona, and 71 wingcar fires as well!

Mike


PS...add the mOdTOp Daytona to the fire fanning list also

[DAY CLONA]

I have the original cone for the #88.  I also have a 'race' cone that was stamped out during the '70 season.
I'll get some pics and dimensions for the grill opening.

Now, I'm curious to see the difference in a cone made in the early summer of 69, versus one made after the production run was done.

Greg, one thing that plagued me for awhile was the Daytona grill opening on production cars, when I started making/offering my first steel grill frames (based on a borrowed NOS piece) problems started to arise with various users, at first I thought it was repaired/damaged cones, but after quite a few feed backs from customers, on site inspections, and templates/measurements, or my grill frames returned cut and welded to make the desired opening dimension to create a new 1 pc frame, the openings varied top to bottom +/- approx 1/8", and in some cases an 1/8" top and bottom meaning a 1/4" overall difference, which made for one natsy looking fit which I attribute to the cone pcs as they were assembled back in the day, so I was forced to compromise my design/dimensions of the finished part as to appease current and future customers, I'll still get feedback that it's tight in the opening, but fits, to it's a little loose in the opening, but fits....I use to converse with Jack McGauhey (Wingcarfab) about the very same issues Tona' or SB, as he was encountering them with various customers builds/repairs, as well as fitting original grill frames to his line of steel nosecones, he even called me one day to say he had 3 original Superbird center grille frames, and all 3 were different, and would not fit the nosecone he was given to repair....

Mike

[odcics2]

Sounds like the production cars used a "fit to cone" method for the OEM frames.  They must have made up a few different sizes to fit the variations, especially on Birds...

[FJMG]

AKA "grind to fit"

[ACUDANUT]

I heard that AMD is going to reproduce these. 

[thehemikid]

That would be so cool,......But,.....hoping I would never need one,.... I could only imagine what they would want for one, ...and I have no kids to barter with.

My arms & legs are out of the question,... I would need those to install it. 

[62 Max]

I heard that AMD is going to reproduce these. 

I think it would be a limited market and depending on production cost I wouldn't hold my breath.