Edlebrock RPM top end kit on a 440

[70mopar500]

I am contemplating using this combination on my 440. I was wondering if anybody on the site has used the Edelbrock rpm top end kit. On their build and if they're happy with it or not. I'll be using this in my 70 charger.
440 bored .30 over 10.5 to 1 comp
Decked block
Line honed
Undercut the crank .10
Balance the rotating assembly
Pistons undecided
Stock rods polished and balanced
Comp cam roller rockers

The Edelbrock RPM  top end kit #2087.  1500-6500 RPM
Claims HP 482 TQ 528 @ 9-1 comp stock bore
#7194 cam & lifters  Duration 238/246 lift 480/495
#7193 RPM manifold
#60929 cylinder heads (loaded) valve size 2.14/181 84cc
Double roller timing chain
Carb 750 -800 cfm

total price for the kit 2,500 bucks

I am looking to pull the 482 HP to ,500+ with the over bore  & higher compression. Has anyone else used this set up? Rich

[303 Mopar]

IMHO would look at 440 source for better quality parts.  http://store.440source.com/

[Challenger340]

I am contemplating using this combination on my 440. I was wondering if anybody on the site has used the Edelbrock rpm top end kit. On their build and if they're happy with it or not. I'll be using this in my 70 charger.
440 bored .30 over 10.5 to 1 comp
Decked block
Line honed
Undercut the crank .10
Balance the rotating assembly
Pistons undecided
Stock rods polished and balanced
Comp cam roller rockers

The Edelbrock RPM  top end kit #2087.  1500-6500 RPM
Claims HP 482 TQ 528 @ 9-1 comp stock bore
#7194 cam & lifters  Duration 238/246 lift 480/495
#7193 RPM manifold
#60929 cylinder heads (loaded) valve size 2.14/181 84cc
Double roller timing chain
Carb 750 -800 cfm

total price for the kit 2,500 bucks

I am looking to pull the 482 HP to ,500+ with the over bore  & higher compression. Has anyone else used this set up? Rich

480-500hp is realistic, but look for it to be all done @ mid to low 5000 rpm's with the OOTB Eddy's.
FORGET anything past 5500 rpm... they LIE pure & simple.... it will be heading "downslope" by then.
You may also incur Hood Clrc issues with the RPM manifold.

[70mopar500]

I heard that manifold may be to high. I started search for a edlebrock CH 4 b manifold

[mopar0166]

I run the setup , with a great bottom end, produces load of power, mine clears fine.

I highly recommend, I wasn't sold on the 440 source stuff.  the stuff I did get from there took forever to get. 

Always had good luck with edlebrock parts , but I use holley carbs

[69wannabe]

Yes, the intake will work but you may have to run a drop base breather. I had to run a drop base on my 440 when I swapped from the regular performer intake. X2 on the holley carbs vs the eddy carbs. I like comp cams over and edelbrock cam and lunati has some good grinds too. Thing about hydraulic cams is they fall out pretty much around 5000 but that's ok if you are just building a street engine. If you plan on doing any drag racing you may want to consider a solid cam with some good spec's that will give you some good street manners and still some upper rpm performance.

[Rolling_Thunder]

There are better camshafts out there - the Eddy heads are decent and the intake is pretty much the go-to standard....     

[mopar0166]

Yes the bottom is drop adapter, but you can tell any way , it looks great

if its not a stocker , why the issue ?

the cam is mild but I didn't need a race cam ether.  makes plenty of power

[70mopar500]

I have been shopping around for different cams but I get so confused. I don't want a combo I blew $$$$$$ on and low#s to show for it. That's why I was thinking about the edlebrock combo. I will be tough on it when I want to have fun. And do NOT want to be embarrassed at the light. I want a motor at the edge of streetable 5-550 HP 5-550TQ pump gas hydraulic flat tap cam. I can go to the show or cruise and tare the ass off it when I want to oh if it matters I'll be looking for a manual transmission 4or5 speed thanks for all your input guys. Mopar0166 can you post a picof you motor and the drop base if its not to much trouble, Rich

[firefighter3931]

Skip the Edelbrock cam and use the Lunati VooDoo 226/234 stick. It will idle better and make more power 

Here's a good recipe I helped with a few years back. With an RPM intake and 850DP carb you could duplicate the power numbers. 

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,52477.0.html



Ron

[Rolling_Thunder]

The downside to the edelbrock cam is that it is a "lazy" grind with low lift and ramp speed...     overall it is a lot of duration for low lift - Chrycho is the man when it comes to cam suggestions.

[Challenger340]

The internet is an absolutely amazing tool for information.
That said,
some of it good..... and well some of it ?  IMO, let's just say more false "hype" than actual fact based.

That's why I like this site, a guy gets the STRAIGHT GOODS...., and the ancient chinese secret, 007, "dreamer" based Bulls**t WALKS !

My point being,
I would STRONGLY encourage anyone seeking Camshaft selection advice, to look for Dyno PROVEN results to various Cam grinds, based in real world Engine testing, both here, and in the "proven combo's section".

Ron(Firefighter3931) is one of... if not THE BEST(IMO) you will ever find in PROVEN, REAL WORLD Cam & Tuning recommendations for these Engines.... BAR NONE !

My apologies for the rant.

[70mopar500]

Oh I know bill440 Ron. I know him from the 70 Registry and met him at Carlisle PA Chrysler nats. I go by plasma nut over their. I'll reach out to him with some questions.

[1974dodgecharger]

On that same token no two engines are the same when built to everything identical either.....its like saying if tiger woods mom had twins both should be good golfers 

Overall Firefighter will point you in the right direction for sure and you too challenger340 I have used a lot of peoples suggestions on this forum and all have been AWESOME!!! 

I remember going to other forums and people telling me my vacuum should be near 18 or 20, my 383 is actually a 440 because no 383 does 393RWHP in close to stock trim, etc.....

Overall the froum here gives great advice......and cant forget heyoldguy breaking myths about old 440s saying they cant produce power etc...

The internet is an absolutely amazing tool for information.
That said,
some of it good..... and well some of it ?  IMO, let's just say more false "hype" than actual fact based.

That's why I like this site, a guy gets the STRAIGHT GOODS...., and the ancient chinese secret, 007, "dreamer" based Bulls**t WALKS !

My point being,
I would STRONGLY encourage anyone seeking Camshaft selection advice, to look for Dyno PROVEN results to various Cam grinds, based in real world Engine testing, both here, and in the "proven combo's section".

Ron(Firefighter3931) is one of... if not THE BEST(IMO) you will ever find in PROVEN, REAL WORLD Cam & Tuning recommendations for these Engines.... BAR NONE !

My apologies for the rant.

[BSB67]

There is nothing wrong with that package.  As others have mentioned, if you were buying the parts separate, I would recommend a different cam.  But I don't know your budget, how this package compares price wise to buying the stuff separate, your mechanical aptitude and the specifics of the rest of your build.

If this package is a good price for you, and you are on a tight budget and you don't mind giving up a few ponys, it is probably a good deal and a good choice.  The old school cam like this is easy on valve train parts, and your stock valve train will be fine, and quiet. Furthermore, this cam, on paper, is not that much different than the MP hydraulic cams in lobe design, which were once considered the best thing since sliced bread.

If you really want a 500 hp motor, you will need more cam.  If you don't want to spend money on a valve train upgrade, you should probably stick with a similar old style hydraulic cam, like a MP509, or bigger.  It won't idle very nice.  If you go "new" and bigger fast rate cam (to make better power numbers with better idle quality) you will probably want to go with an adjustable valve train. Now that you spent the money on the adjustable valve train, why wouldn't you just put a solid lifter cam in?  See how this snowballs.

As I say time and time again, you need to get clear on both goals and budget.  It is really, really easy for me to spend your money.  Kinda fun too.   Anyways, here is the good news in my opinion; it sounds like you've got a good compression ratio, and you're contemplating good heads and intake, therefore you're 3/4's of the way home. No matter what cam choice you make, it won't be bad, and if not to you're liking, can easily be changed.

[Challenger340]

There is nothing wrong with that package.  As others have mentioned, if you were buying the parts separate, I would recommend a different cam.  But I don't know your budget, how this package compares price wise to buying the stuff separate, your mechanical aptitude and the specifics of the rest of your build.

If this package is a good price for you, and you are on a tight budget and you don't mind giving up a few ponys, it is probably a good deal and a good choice.  The old school cam like this is easy on valve train parts, and your stock valve train will be fine, and quiet. Furthermore, this cam, on paper, is not that much different than the MP hydraulic cams in lobe design, which were once considered the best thing since sliced bread.

If you really want a 500 hp motor, you will need more cam.  If you don't want to spend money on a valve train upgrade, you should probably stick with a similar old style hydraulic cam, like a MP509, or bigger.  It won't idle very nice.  If you go "new" and bigger fast rate cam (to make better power numbers with better idle quality) you will probably want to go with an adjustable valve train. Now that you spent the money on the adjustable valve train, why wouldn't you just put a solid lifter cam in?  See how this snowballs.

As I say time and time again, you need to get clear on both goals and budget.  It is really, really easy for me to spend your money.  Kinda fun too.   Anyways, here is the good news in my opinion; it sounds like you've got a good compression ratio, and you're contemplating good heads and intake, therefore you're 3/4's of the way home. No matter what cam choice you make, it won't be bad, and if not to you're liking, can easily be changed.

BUMP...... This is really Good Advice ! 

[mopar0166]

 

[70mopar500]

Well my money situation took a down turn. So a more economical build will be happening. I have had all the machine work done on the block. So I will be doing the build myself instead of paying the shop and a new recipe for the build as well

Block decked, line honed. Bored 30 over. Stock steel crank .10 under ground ARP bolts
10.5-1 flat top pistons keath black
440 source piston rods
                    Liquid harmonic balancer
                     HV oil pump
                    Stealth heads, I will be changing the locks and retainer to comp cams
Edlebrock CH4B intake manifold
800 cfm Thermoquad carb
Comp cam XE 285 HI
roller rockers not sure or 1.5.  1.6

What do you think?  Rich

[BSB67]

What is the piston part number. and which of those parts do you actually already own?

[70mopar500]

I haven't picked the exact pistons. Wanted to see what you all thought? The only thing I have is the block  and pined down the intake manifold form a board member. Rich

[BSB67]

Sorry for all the questions.  1) What is your budget? 2) exactly what has been done to the block?  You don't normally finish your block machining work without the pistons. 3) Exactly what parts do you have that are ready to go?, 4) what is your goal?

[Challenger340]

Well my money situation took a down turn. So a more economical build will be happening. I have had all the machine work done on the block. So I will be doing the build myself instead of paying the shop and a new recipe for the build as well

Block decked, line honed. Bored 30 over. Stock steel crank .10 under ground ARP bolts
10.5-1 flat top pistons keath black
440 source piston rods
                    Liquid harmonic balancer
                     HV oil pump
                    Stealth heads, I will be changing the locks and retainer to comp cams
Edlebrock CH4B intake manifold
800 cfm Thermoquad carb
Comp cam XE 285 HI
roller rockers not sure or 1.5.  1.6

What do you think?  Rich

IMO, unless you are Porting & re-doing the valves/seat angles on the Stealth Heads ? AFTER they arrive ? ($$$$)
There are basically very limited to NO gains to be had much past .500" Valve Lift on OOTB Stealths, potentially making the XE285 "HL" or High Lift redundant, and the 1.6 Rocker ratio an equal waste of time and Money, just beating V/train/Springs etc for nothing.
Incidentally,
unless you are really handy with a grinder and V/Train geometry ? Like doing it for a living and have done LOTS ? 1.6 Rockers using 3/8" Pushrods is pretty much a NO-GO on the Stealths...
with,
a custom .083" Wall 5/16" Pushrods being your best bet for going 1.6 Rocker ratio , and again here ($$$$)

I've Flowed TONS of OOTB Stealths here, maybe I'll post a sheet so you get what I am talking about, but again here, IMO, much past .520" to .540" Lift on OOTB Stealths is a waste of time and money vrs any gains.

[c00nhunterjoe]

You had the block decked without having pistons? why? And how much was it decked? This could make a piston choice VERY difficult

[70mopar500]

 Will be stopping by the machine shop and see how far they have gone. I do remember him saying that he would be giving me a part number for the pistons, so I believe that it was because of the deck height. But I don't have hard numbers for you guys. I will on monday.

[70mopar500]

Sorry for all the questions.  1) What is your budget? 2) exactly what has been done to the block?  You don't normally finish your block machining work without the pistons. 3) Exactly what parts do you have that are ready to go?, 4) what is your goal?

1 I would like to be around 5k
2 nothing has been done yet
3 none of them
4 goal 500+ HP 500+ TQ driver, pump gas

You had the block decked without having pistons? why? And how much was it decked? This could make a piston choice VERY difficult

Not decked yet




IMO, unless you are Porting & re-doing the valves/seat angles on the Stealth Heads ? AFTER they arrive ? ($$$$)
There are basically very limited to NO gains to be had much past .500" Valve Lift on OOTB Stealths, potentially making the XE285 "HL" or High Lift redundant, and the 1.6 Rocker ratio an equal waste of time and Money, just beating V/train/Springs etc for nothing.
Incidentally,
unless you are really handy with a grinder and V/Train geometry ? Like doing it for a living and have done LOTS ? 1.6 Rockers using 3/8" Pushrods is pretty much a NO-GO on the Stealths...
with,
a custom .083" Wall 5/16" Pushrods being your best bet for going 1.6 Rocker ratio , and again here ($$$$)

I've Flowed TONS of OOTB Stealths here, maybe I'll post a sheet so you get what I am talking about, but again here, IMO, much past .520" to .540" Lift on OOTB Stealths is a waste of time and money vrs any gains.



[/quote]



I have never ported & polished head before. But I am very mechanically inclined. I am getting the drift that by the time I'm done with the stealth heads, for the money & aggravation I should just get the Edlebrock  performer rpm cylinder heads.?

[XH29N0G]

The others can speak more to merits of Stealths and Edelbrock heads.  I think the issue really is that your power goals can be achieved without the very high lift. So it may not matter. My engine has 450 CI and approximately 0.510 lift and unported edelbrock heads came in above 500 HP/TQ.  It also runs out at 5400 as Challenger340 pointed out above, but for me that is fine.

[BSB67]

Ok, you have nothing.  I'll assume this means no exhaust system at all, oil pan, windage tray, water pump, w/p housing, valve covers, air cleaner, ignition system, pulleys, fan........  And there is probably $1,000 in misc stuff (paint, filters, oil, plugs, hoses, belts, sealants, fasteners.......).  So we have not even started talking about the motor and making power but have spent $3,000.  Is this stuff in your $5,000 budget?

So, If I wanted to make 500 hp with as few $ as possible but still have decent enough stuff but less than "perfect" motor, I would do the following:

1) Sidewinder heads w/ quality comp. valve grind
2) Rebuild short block with a 2.06" ish CD piston and zero deck.  Balance
3) Small/medium solid cam like the XE 282
4) 1.6 rockers, 5/16 PR, grind intake runner as needed for clearance
5) Used Holley SD
6) Used Holley 4781 - rebuild
7) low buck 1 3/4" headers
8.  Used $5 oil pump.  Put in a high pressure spring

You're still probably over $5,000. Maybe not.  I would not mess with the mains, and use every bolt that you already have.  If you have non-adjustable rockers already, use a big hydraulic and skip the adjustable rockers.  To save a few more $, use Speed Pro 2355 pistons and factory rods and don't balance.  Just put new bolts in, and maybe use 0.001" under size rod bearings, maybe only one undersize shell per rod.  Rebuild a factory balancer.  Unless the crank is "bad" polish it on the bench with emery cloth and go.   Stock oil pan and single groove mains.

This motor can put a typical B Body into the 11s at 115+ mph.

Today, 99% of the people would recommend against these recommendations.  Back in the 1970's, this is what 99% of the people did, including me, more than once.

[70mopar500]

Ok, you have nothing.  I'll assume this means no exhaust system at all, oil pan, windage tray, water pump, w/p housing, valve covers, air cleaner, ignition system, pulleys, fan........  And there is probably $1,000 in misc stuff (paint, filters, oil, plugs, hoses, belts, sealants, fasteners.......).  So we have not even started talking about the motor and making power but have spent $3,000.  Is this stuff in your $5,000 budget?

So, If I wanted to make 500 hp with as few $ as possible but still have decent enough stuff but less than "perfect" motor, I would do the following:

1) Sidewinder heads w/ quality comp. valve grind
2) Rebuild short block with a 2.06" ish CD piston and zero deck.  Balance
3) Small/medium solid cam like the XE 282
4) 1.6 rockers, 5/16 PR, grind intake runner as needed for clearance
5) Used Holley SD
6) Used Holley 4781 - rebuild
7) low buck 1 3/4" headers
8.  Used $5 oil pump.  Put in a high pressure spring

You're still probably over $5,000. Maybe not.  I would not mess with the mains, and use every bolt that you already have.  If you have non-adjustable rockers already, use a big hydraulic and skip the adjustable rockers.  To save a few more $, use Speed Pro 2355 pistons and factory rods and don't balance.  Just put new bolts in, and maybe use 0.001" under size rod bearings, maybe only one undersize shell per rod.  Rebuild a factory balancer.  Unless the crank is "bad" polish it on the bench with emery cloth and go.   Stock oil pan and single groove mains.

This motor can put a typical B Body into the 11s at 115+ mph.

Today, 99% of the people would recommend against these recommendations.  Back in the 1970's, this is what 99% of the people did, including me, more than once.

Thanks for the recommendations, I very much appreciate everyone's help. So much to process 

[firefighter3931]

It's important to match the cam with the converter stall speed and rear end gearing. Failure to do so will produce disasterous results.

What tq converter and rear gear/tire diameter do you plan to run in this car ?


Ron

[70mopar500]

15 /295/50s on the rear and 323 rear gearing with a 4 speed manual maybe a 5

[firefighter3931]

With the 3.23's you don't want to go too big on the duration. The 4spd will help as it has an "adjustable" stall speed. 

Does the car have a power brake booster ?


Ron

[70mopar500]

Yes it does, and I would like to keep it.  My 323 is not a sure grip. I was looking to get one so going to a little lower of a gear is possible. As I'm going down this road I am leaning towards the cam you suggested, the voodoo cam bill440rt used. I think the biggest savings I am looking for is in the heads. But if 1k is going to make or break the build. I'll than take longer to finish.I just thought I could get the same power out of the stealth or sidewinder heads. Rich

[1974dodgecharger]

gotta love the 4speed as firefighter has said has its own, 'stall speed' lmao....

having a 509 cam is tough as is on the street with a 3.23 gearing....

[firefighter3931]

Yes it does, and I would like to keep it.  My 323 is not a sure grip. I was looking to get one so going to a little lower of a gear is possible. As I'm going down this road I am leaning towards the cam you suggested, the voodoo cam bill440rt used. I think the biggest savings I am looking for is in the heads. But if 1k is going to make or break the build. I'll than take longer to finish.I just thought I could get the same power out of the stealth or sidewinder heads. Rich

The VooDoo cam is a good match and will work fine with Power brakes. 

The Sidewinder heads are good and can make excellent power with a little massaging. I would order the Sidewinders and have them shipped to Dwayne @ Porter Racing Heads for a mild port and quality valvejob. He will know how to massage them in the right area to increase flow to match your cam profile. The sidewinders come with just valves and Dwayne can pick out a valvespring and retainer to match the cam so you'll receive a head that is customized to your build. 

The heads are the big player in any engine combination and getting that right will make or break the build. It pays to get this right ! 



Ron

[70mopar500]

I finally got my motor running. I went with the sidewinder heads, Mancini roller rockers CH4B INTAKE, 800cfm Thunder series edlbrock carb and a fire core distributor. Here is the video

https://youtu.be/KaqV4jl510E

[303 Mopar]

She sounds nasty!

[firefighter3931]

Well done Rich ! 

Did you end up using the Lunati Cam....can't remember ? 

Now it's time to start tuning the beast ! 



Ron

[70mopar500]

Well done Rich ! 

Did you end up using the Lunati Cam....can't remember ? 

Now it's time to start tuning the beast ! 



Ron

Yes, it the Lunati vudoo cam 😁

[Back N Black]

Cool video, I think that was the highlight of my build was the first start up. You have the same look on your face.

[firefighter3931]

Well done Rich ! 

Did you end up using the Lunati Cam....can't remember ? 

Now it's time to start tuning the beast ! 

Ron

Yes, it the Lunati vudoo cam 😁

Awesome....it's going to be a BLAST to drive !   

Looking forward to some in-car vid clips 


Ron

[Harper]

good info in here, thanks all for sharing.
70mopar500,
that thing is awesome sounding! is the cam flat tappet or roller?

I am thinking of running this with my combo

Lunati's Voodoo series of camshafts deliver more area under the curve than any other series of camshafts. This means more throttle response, quicker acceleration, more vacuum and better efficiency. These factors, combined with maximum horsepower and torque, make Voodoo camshafts the perfect choice for a wide range of high performance applications.Solid Roller Cam. Good high performance street cam with good mid range torque and HP. Works well in 383-400 c.i. motors. Needs 2500 RPM stall converter or 4/5-speed trans- mission, headers, 9:1+ compression ratio and 3.73+ gearing. Lopey idle.
Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 261/267
    Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 231/237
    Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .555/.566
    LSA/ICL: 110/106
    Valve Lash (Int/Exh): .016/.016
    RPM Range: 2500-6400
    Includes: Cam & Lifters (#72421-16)
Part Number: 40230730LK
Previous Part Number: 60330LK
Jobber Price: $685.20

although reading the article from hot rod magazine on the Indy heads (PN 295 EZ) they made 632 hp at 6000 rpm and 560 ft lbs or torque @6000 with a 850 demon carb.
There are so many different combinations its not even funny.
likethey said above it all has to be matched to get the best performance. Sometimes the cool factor of the lope is the winning combo tho, most ppl like the sound of a good cam 


if you dont mind please post up a few pics of the engine