what constitutes a "barn find"

[Lord Warlock]

Just wondering and tossing it out for discussion.  Have a car that has been in storage for 32 years, always been covered, but was in a garage for a while, then a plastic tarp covered 12x20 quanset hut looking structure for 10 years, then in a garage once the tarp split from sun damage.  Eventually built a 2nd garage just to house the car.  Up until 7 years ago, all it did was sit, and occasionally get started to move a short distance. Last 7 while in its own garage, worked on restoring it but not a full bore restoration, more of a bring it up to date type restore.  If I ever get around to setting the timing manually I'll get it running again, its all assembled, even looks good, but has had boxes and other crap piled on it from time to time over the years, now its cleaned off and just waiting warmer weather to get running and driving again.  

Don't really consider this to be a barn find, even if it has been off the road since 1988 (hasn't been driven since 84), but it does have a similar story of sitting neglected for long periods of time.  I may end up selling it sooner than I expected, Cancer diagnosis 2 years ago was a surprise, not sure how long I have left, so shooting to driving it this spring and summer, after that...high likelihood of putting it on the market.  Was a survivor until I restored it myself over the last few years to a condition better than it was when I first got it in 78.  Now its just a y3 tan top RT SE, only 1 of 2 I've ever seen, 1 of 5 RT SE's made this color combo.



But what is a barn find? does it have to be in a barn, or a field, rusting away, or would the same title apply to cars stored for 20-30 years? Not every owner is willing to allow their first car to mildew or rot in a field, or sink into the dirt sitting in the front yard off of skinny country roads.  Both me and wife sacrificed much in losing half or all of the garage space for 20 years, house before this was a 1 car garage, guess what got that space?

[crj1968]

Ive always considered it a car found in decent shape that been sitting inside (garage, barn, storage...) untouched for decades.

[Lennard]

You knew that your charger was there from the day you parked it so it's not a barn find. I don't think the person that owns the car can find it.

[Daytona R/T SE]

You knew that your charger was there from the day you parked it so it's not a barn find. I don't think the person that owns the car can find it.

I've got five cars I keep in a friend's barn.

I "find" them every time I go to his place to pay the rent. 

[Challenger340]

I'd qualify it as a "Barn/Garage/Shed/Whatever Find" on general fawking principle, just because of the known storage history for 32 years ! 
BTW,
Great looking Car 

[E86/A47]

My 1st 69 was a Y3 rt/SE but I don't think it was a tan top. When I bought it the color was a horrid mint green with black top. The resto was poor but it was matching numbers rt/SE and i got my money back when I sold it.

I can't speak to the definition of barn find.

[ws23rt]

I like the question.

When a new term comes up and gains popularity it tends to be something used more frequently by many that don't know what they are talking about but think they do and want to sound current and knowledgeable  

My take on one of the meanings is that it implies a treasure has been found. And that treasure that has been found has extra special value because it might be had for a financial gain.----Opportunity---  

In this hobby a barn find is something we dream about when looking for a project that fits our passion for a car that has been sitting in wait for us as we regroup and can now get back in the game/fun etc.

A barn find is something that has lived as long as we have and still has much (or more) of it's original life left in it than we may have.

[Brock Lee]

I would consider it to be a recently discovered car that has been sitting in the same spot, undriven, and untouched for over 10 years. It could be in a barn, pole barn, garage, storage unit, under a tarp. whatever. But it has had to be sitting in that spot long enough to have been forgotten by the people in the area. Going out of circulation.

[68X426]

America was a barn find to Columbus.

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

Ive always considered it a car found in decent shape that been sitting inside (garage, barn, storage...) untouched for decades.

sounds reasonable to me... 

[Lord Warlock]

Some times, I wish that I had left the body alone, and kept the original paint intact, the seats and interior were good enough and It could have been classified as a "Survivor" as I still have the same tires and wheels it had on when I got it (ET Slot mags).  taking it down to metal kind of ruined the survivor class, I didn't think cars would become more valuable as survivors...we can all be wrong once or twice.  

To me, the car isn't a barn find, because I built the "barn" it sits in, just specifically for this car, spent about what it was worth to build the garage at the time,  around 35k.  However, to anyone else that saw it in its storage place, they may consider it to be a barn find.  Even though we don't have barns here in the suburbs of Jacksonville florida, you'd have to drive 15 miles further south to find barns on farms.

However, I'm not above calling it a barn find if I advertised it to sell, despite the fact that it is semi restored.  I think its a candidate for a real restoration and could eventually pull a 100k price in the future.  Just not from me, as I got it when it was 10 years old and had 70k miles on it.  and I only paid 800 for it back in 1978. No one has seen the car except one neighbor who bugged me to get it started again before I took the engine apart to detail it.  Most of the neighbors don't even know its there and would be shocked to actually see it drive out under its own power.  The local car clubs have heard whispers about it but not seen it in well over 10 years, probably closer to 20. It'll be a shocker to see it just show up at a gather sometime. 

[crj1968]

It's a great car....but you can't call it a barn find, because you didnt find it, you own it.   

Actually you can call it anything you want it's yours....BUT if you run an ad that says  "1970 Dodge 2 door for sale" the first person who shows up will scream from the rooftops "BARN FIND!" 

[Lord Warlock]

I'm pretty sure that would be the first thing they thought it was, and would call it that.  And probably try to flip it fast.  Dash still needs restore work, and some effort to make the woodgrain pieces match up right.  Gauges probably need a rebuild, they were working last time I fired it up, but I've put a tank in it since then, a firecore distributor and an updated alternator, so figure I'll be sending off the cluster for a rebuild soon after starting it.  Really wish I'd kept the spare cluster I got out of the green/green/green (dark forest?) that I pulled the motor and transmission out of.  Donated it to a needy club member 15+ years back, original was less faded, but spare had the actual mileage on the motor (69,425).  If still had it could send it off for rebuild and then swap out for original, and  original would go into the original parts bins on the shelves.  Plan on putting the parts in the trunk to ensure wife knows it should be included.  Think I have a few console pieces from that car still but think they are in attic of house, haven't seen in years.
They aren't in garage the car is in so probably lost them up there. Car used to sit in attached garage before spare was built.

Only visual non stock item is the v21 treatment, I painted the car so painting the v21 was a personal preference, remembered how bad glare was on the tan hood sometimes. 

[G-man]

Barn find = finding a car in a barn. Thats what I always thought!

[polywideblock]

to me a barn find is a car that has been off the road /stored / out of sight for more than 10 years 

   it should still be covered in all the dust and crap       

      can only be a barn find once ,once you wash/detail    its a "survivor "   or the next step is restored   

[Lord Warlock]

It can be covered in dust just by leaving the garage door open and running the lawnmower too close

[polywideblock]

 

[6spd68]

May the car gods be with you to get it running by the spring! 

[Charger_Fan]

Mine is my garage queen too, but yours looks better. 

[HANDM]

I just wish I had a barn to find mine in! 

It's currently housed in a costco quansit hut and while it doesnt leak, the condensation during winter is a pain in the butt and f's up the engine every time I detail it. I suppose I could put a heater in ther but risk of fire is worse than condensation any day...

[Charger_Fan]

Do you have a tarp on the ground, under the car? That helps a bunch.

[CDN72SE]

Barn find = finding a car in a barn. Thats what I always thought!

Gotta go with what G-man says, something unique to me, seeing a car found (or revealed) in a barn. Especially since in my neck of the woods finding a barn would be a find. 

[dual fours]

IMO, Finding a vehicle that you do not own yet that has been sitting, covered with a tarp or not and not started up or moved for over 20 years. It must have a roof over it's head and enclosed with three walls and maybe a door. "Barn Find" is used to loosely in todays car culture (and some people stage the background) because someone wants to have something special. Had I decided to sell or had died two or three years ago, and my wife/estate put the Charger up "For Sale" anybody coming to look at it could say it's a "Barn Find". It's really in a stable , whom ever would had bought the Charger back then, in my mind could rightly call it a "Barn Find".  

This is what someone would have found two or three years back, sitting in the same spot since maybe May 1987. I am so embarrassed for you all to see the Charger this way .
We had our first road trip in twenty eight plus years, 11 miles added to the odometer on December 12, 2015.  

[crj1968]

LOL nice picture. 


Glad to hear it's rolling again !   

[VegasCharger]

Finding a vehicle that you do not own yet that has been sitting, covered with a tarp or not and not started up or moved for over 20 years. It must have a roof over it's head and enclosed with three walls and maybe a door. "Barn Find" is used to loosely in todays car culture (and some people stage the background) because someone wants to have something special. Had I decided to sell or had died two or three years ago, and my wife/estate put the Charger up "For Sale" anybody coming to look at it could say it's a "Barn Find". It's really in a stable , whom ever would had bought the Charger back then, in my mind could rightly call it a "Barn Find".  

This is what someone would have found two or three years back, sitting in the same spot since maybe May 1987. I am so embarrassed for you all to see the Charger this way .
We had our first road trip in twenty eight plus years, 11 miles added to the odometer on December 12, 2015.  

Stage the background? Like this one 

[John_Kunkel]

In my vernacular, the "find" part of barn find is what counts. It can't be found if it's location was already known to many. To me, the classic barn find is a car that has been hidden away for years and only the owner knows it's there.

[Charger_Fan]

  At that Daytona pic.

I am so embarrassed for you all to see the Charger this way .
 

Good, now I don't feel as bad. Mine looks like this more often than not. 

[Lord Warlock]

that tends to be what a 60s car looks like if parked long enough, the big flat hoods ask to have stuff laid on it, as does the trunk, its perfect height for laying stuff down and indentations on the hood make it stay where laid. 

[ht4spd307]

this is a barn find

[HANDM]

Do you have a tarp on the ground, under the car? That helps a bunch.

It sits on blacktop....

[HANDM]

that tends to be what a 60s car looks like if parked long enough, the big flat hoods ask to have stuff laid on it, as does the trunk, its perfect height for laying stuff down and indentations on the hood make it stay where laid. 

Egg zachary right, I had a 69 Dodge shelf for the longest time 

[TheAutoArchaeologist]

Indeed "Barn Find" is a more general term now to associate with a vehicle that has been off the road for numerous years. 

Immediately, if you hear the term, your mind can jump to the idea of what the car is/was doing before the current moment. 

[Lord Warlock]

actually think that last photo is a burial ground, not barn find.  Now if it was a bunch of 60s muscle I'd feel differently, or if there were duesenburgs and cords sitting in there.  run of mill 1930's cars just aren't worth much these days, even restored.  Their fan base is dying off. 

[polywideblock]

this is a barn find

so are these

       

[ht4spd307]

if you think barn find pigeon crap is involved 

[cbrestorations]

what if it has been sinking into the earth in the woods...whats that, a forrest find? lol

[Lord Warlock]

the "field finds" really should have a different designation than a barn find, at least with the barn finds the owner at least attempted to shelter the vehicle to reduce rot from exposure.  Maybe they should be "farm find". 

[out there]

what if it has been sinking into the earth in the woods...whats that, a forrest find? lol

Yes, this would constitute a "Forest Find" but, if an acorn fell on it and no one was around to hear it, would it actually make a sound?
That is the question   

[polywideblock]

what if it has been sinking into the earth in the woods...whats that, a forrest find? lol

isn't that just a derelict 

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

Here were my thoughts from a few years ago on the matters:

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,74322.msg836720.html#msg836720

...was reading the new issue of Mopar Collectors Guide where a 1970 Hemi Charger (sunroof car) was being touted as a "survivor" - that 1970 car, lost its original engine many years ago and has "75% original paint" after repairing rust in the quarters and trunk... Roll Eyes

Really?? Is that a "Survivor" without the original engine and having had extensive rust repair? popcrn


Survivor is such an overused word - I can see why David Burroughs sought to copyright the term  

So, the "Barn Find" Charger would be a Survivor - or as David Burroughs might award, a "Zenith" accolade might be in order for the T7 car in this thread  

Here is some interesting reading on whether to restore - or NOT  
http://www.bloomingtongold.com/inc.php?link=Restoreitornot

       

Restore it? Or Not!
By David Burroughs
The question "when to restore a Collector Car versus leaving it alone" elicits different answers from people with different missions.  Here are 3 points of view:

1.  Bloomington Gold's mission is to preserve the historic accuracy of factory production cars.  Therefore, we recognize and inspire collectors to preserve cars in or restore them to typical factory production...no better, no worse, no different. But make no mistake, our first goal is to preserve whenever possible.  We suggest restoration only if the car is already restored (altered) or has deteriorated to a point where finishes such as paint, fabrics, or plating are no longer useful as references.  In short, our philosophy is the same as the Smithsonian Institute: Do no harm to historically accurate artifacts.  Period.

2.  In contrast, a Restoration Shop's mission is (generally) to restore things.  Otherwise they'd be called Preservation Shops.  In their defense, they don't make money until someone wants something restored.  Not only that, many restoration shops simply lack the knowledge or motive to advise a novice owner or collector when to "leave it alone."  So, their answer when to restore is normally far less conservative than Bloomington Gold's.

3. Finally, the Car Owner's mission is usually to receive recognition.  Historically, that equates to making it "shiny and perfect," because neighbors and fans at the local car show normally don't ooh and aah over dulled paint and a slight tear in a seat cover.  Even if it's on low mileage SURVIVOR® or BENCHMARK® cars.  It is tragic how many wonderfully preserved (and valuable) cars' DNAs have been "destroyed" by cosmetic  restorations in order to win a $25 trophy or the praise of an oblivious next door neighbor.

Like it or not, there will always be these last two segments of the collector car industry exerting pressure away from historic perfection and toward cosmetic perfection. It's just human nature.

All that said, Bloomington Gold has been remarkably successful inspiring more and more people to appreciate the value and rarity of authentic unrestored originals...and it appears to be gaining some ground.  First, notice the difference between cars restored in 1978 vs. 2008.  Although most restorations today are "over the top," they are still far more accurate than they were 30 years ago when Bloomington Gold began moving the industry in this direction.   Second, notice the broad use of the term "survivor" by people trying to add value to the cars they are marketing.  Until Bloomington Gold introduced the world to SURVIVOR® in 1990, no one described cars that way.  Today, people are becoming proud of it.  A few character marks and patina have become badges of honor and certainly help document a car's authenticity compared to a restored one. Bloomington Gold's vision has come true in large part and people are following it.
In fact, a collector just paid a cool $1.65 million for a 1911 Oldsmobile that doesn't quite yet meet SURVIVOR Standards (because it can't pass the road test part of SURVIVOR Certification).  Why pay so much for a car that doesn't run?  The owner was wise enough to understand its significance and rarity as is.  Although it may be a long time before the majority of collectors figure this out, a rapidly growing segment of the collector car market is beginning to realize the benefits, rarity, and prestige of owning these type cars.  Once restored, there is one less.
Run a want ad looking for a beautifully restored Corvette, Ferrari, Mopar, or some other highly sought after collector car. Responses will come out of the woodwork.  Good ones, too.  Then run an identical want ad except change the wording from beautifully restored to "nearly show room new unrestored original."  Then wait.  Then wait some more.  Then think about what this means.  It means that highly unrestored original cars are by definition much more rare than restored ones.  Therefore, Bloomington Gold is confident that more and more people will become increasingly aware of the key ingredients that drive up the desirability and value of most collectibles:                  
• Rarity                  
• Desirability                  
• Paperwork / Documentation                  
• Excellent unrestored original condition
Likewise, we urge owners/collectors to consider the following facts and to think twice before moving toward cosmetic restorations on really good original unrestored cars.

Fact #1:
In the collector world (other than cars), restoration and refinishing drives value down.Within the great collections of antiques, toys, firearms, timepieces, furniture, paintings, coins, and other historic pieces or fine art, the unrestored item is the most desirable and prestigious to collect.  In fact, some would argue that refinishing or restoring a fine original piece is equivalent to an act of vandalism.  In the long run, why will car collecting be any different?

Fact #2:
Like vandalism, restorations can be repaired; however, they can never be reversed.

Fact #3:
Simply refinishing (or repainting) is equivalent to restoration in termsof irreversibility.

What's wrong with this picture?

We are aware of several owners who purchased BENCHMARK Certified Corvettes and restored them to make them cosmetically perfect.  Ironically, they ended up "stealing defeat from the jaws of victory."  They started with a car that had already achieved the most prestigious award; then spent over $100,000 more to make it cosmetically perfect, and ended up rendering the car capable of only attaining a Gold Certificate and never again being able to qualify for the much more prestigious BENCHMARK.  How's that for going backwards?  And paying for it to boot!

In conclusion, here is our advice to our friends in the collector car industry:
Decide which type perfection is best to pursue; cosmetic perfection or historic perfection?
Do not act on advice from restoration shops alone.  Get outside opinions from noted / respected judges, writers, collectors, or others with no vested interest.  Then decide.
Realize the true rarity of SURVIVOR® and BENCHMARK® level cars in comparison to similar cars that have been restored.
Realize the premium that many collectors, organizations, and dealers place on cosmetic perfection versus historic perfection and authenticity demonstrated by lack of restoration.
Realize the premium the Smithsonian and other fine art museums place on "originals."
If you want something cosmetically perfect, there are thousands of restoration candidates available for that purpose without needing to use good unrestored originals:
                 • Ones that have already been restored.
                 • Others that have deteriorated clearly past the point of preservation.
                 • Still others that are historically important but are in pieces.
For more information about:
                 • Becoming SURVIVOR® or BENCHMARK® Certified
                 • Becoming a Certified SURVIVOR® Judge
                 • How SURVIVOR and BENCHMARK trademarks help the industry
                 • Criteria for SURVIVOR and BENCHMARK
                 • The important differences between being unrestored and Certified
                 • Preservation Techniques
                 • How to determine what you have

Contact: David Burroughs
309-888-2588
david@BloomingtonGold.com

[XS29L9Bxxxxxx]

And of course, what was probably the best barn find deal in the past decade:

That's one dirty barn!  Car looks like it cleaned up nicely. 

[chargerperson]

I found this 69 Buick in a parking garage in Manhattan when attending the Thanksgiving parade.  It clearly had been there for a very long time, possibly years.  The car was last registered in 2004 making it an quasi urban barn find.

[1974dodgecharger]

put it in the barn for one day and someone else pretend to find it..viola barn find.

[Lord Warlock]

Suppose I could always paint my hobby garage red, and make it lean a little to one side to make the barn look more impressive.
Its kind of funny to hear someone claiming to have coined the term survivor, when we considered original cars untouched since their daily driven days 20+ years ago to be survivors before some smart guy decided to copywrite the term.  Anyways not gonna complain, as I don't think anything I have in my "barn" would fit the high and mighty restoration guys survivor status. 

[928007]

how about this