Which Supercharger?

[G-man]

Hey,

I am contemplating the idea of supercharging a 440ci (once I get it)...

I have read about pro-chargers, twin screw type (Like whipples), Kenne Bell, BDS and Roots-Style (From which I don't know which is which).

Which style is going to provide the best performance?

I mean, 700-800 Horsepower...

It can be done either:

1: The engine with no blower Just raw power.
2: using a supercharger.
3: Using a turbo (which I don't care about)

To my understanding, 3 identical cars making same horsepower via different methods... I assume the Natural Aspirated would be the 'best' performer in acceleration. Correct me if I am wrong.

If for some reason a Blown motor with the same power would be better because the torque would be greater than the natural aspirated motor...

Well I can use a Pro-Charger,  a roots style (is that the BDS etc type?) and the twin screw type like whipples.

All those will produce 800hp.

So which one of the 3 is going to make the faster 800 hp car?

Are they all going to be fine for street driving, or will some be a pain in ass and not feel good?

Just some over-all view would be appreciated.

[1974dodgecharger]

no supercharger needed for 800HP, get a 572 HEMI and get that easy peezy by the time you add a supercharger, engine rebuild your already at HEMI 572 terriortiy price wise.

[cbrestorations]

best performance hands down is turbo, dont need a big cam, doesnt use crankshaft power to make power so its less friction, better mpg and can control ur hp without even popping the hood with a boost controller. a stock 440hp engine @15 psi would make over 700hp. turbo cars have the best acceleration, if feels as if they just keep on pulling when blower cars hit hard but then level out a bit. or you can go best of both worlds and have a blower that is only making 6psi then have the turbo double it. makes for a fun car lol

[Mike DC]

Figure out whether you want a big top-end charge, or you want a big even pull throughout the low & midrange. 

One guy's idea of a drawback is another guy's idea of an asset. 

[phantom]

Like the guys above here said, it depends on where you want the power range. Turbos are not typically faster in acceleration, as they can produce lag. But the upside is, when they start to pull, they go all the way, only restricted by backpressure.

Superchargers have pretty much instantaneous power, but it decreases as the rpm goes up, especially the roots blowers. Those are the old-school ones, that stick out the hood. Downside is, they produce alot of heat. Turbos and centrifugal superchargers can be intercooled, not the roots blower.

[myk]

Curious: what are the goals for the car?  What made you pick 700-800 horsepower?   Did you pick that power level for a certain level of performance, as in drag racing?  Are you looking to get that number on a dyno?   

[G-man]

Curious: what are the goals for the car?  What made you pick 700-800 horsepower?   Did you pick that power level for a certain level of performance, as in drag racing?  Are you looking to get that number on a dyno?   

Well, most supercars are over 600 HP.
So I figured around 700-800 would make a good 0-60mph car (compete-able) considering the car weighs what it does.

I just wondered which way of the 3 Superchargers (Or Natural Aspirated) would give that initial launch like acceleration.

[Charger_Fan]

.

[cbrestorations]

have you seen what most super cars run at the dragstrip? its not all that impressive for the cost of one. you could run 10's with 600hp, gear, tire, shocks and converter. a friend has run 8's on a rock stock ford 4.6 dohc engine. factory sealed long block with stock cams. ran an 88mm large frame turbo with a edelbrock aluminum intake to hold the boost and a big fuel system. on the chassis dyno it put down 1100hp @27psi. it is a dirty pig when its not spooling the turbo but if you want a turbo car to launch hard, just trans brake it with a high stall and a 2 step. it wont shock the tire as hard and the power curve is more progressive than a blower car so it usually hooks better. 
also have done a few LS cars that pulled a stock 5.3 truck engine from a junkyard, nothing but big turbo and making 750hp+
i have only got to do 1 modern hemi like this but he kept the boost down to 10psi on a stock 6.1 hemi and made 650hp
i installed a hellion kit for a gt500 making it twin turbo'd ontop of a factory 550hp roots blower. end result was 800hp to the tire and a wicked fun street car, the stock blower make the turbo's spool instantly

[Mike DC]

  
Supercars aren't just for drag racing though.  

In fact they aren't just for any performance number at all.  They are for the overall experience.  Faster is not always the same thing as more fun.  

These days the manual trannys aren't the fastest anymore.  Now the companies are all selling modern, dual-clutch, paddle-shifted, electronic, 37-speed automatics.  But which one is more fun?  Many of us would rather have a plain 6spd manual.  For a car that lives under 100 mph I would prefer only 4-5 speeds over 6. 



I think this is something each generation of car guys has to learn over time.  They start out as teenagers obsessing over numbers in magazines, bench racing sessions with their friends, video games, etc.  Eventually they end up as older guys who love whatever cars/setups they grew up with, be it fast or slow.  

[1974dodgecharger]

 
Supercars aren't just for drag racing though.  

In fact they aren't just for any performance number at all.  They are for the overall experience.  Faster is not always the same thing as more fun.  

These days the manual trannys aren't the fastest anymore.  Now the companies are all selling modern, dual-clutch, paddle-shifted, electronic, 37-speed automatics.  But which one is more fun?  Many of us would rather have a plain 6spd manual.  For a car that lives under 100 mph I would prefer only 4-5 speeds over 6. 



I think this is something each generation of car guys has to learn over time.  They start out as teenagers obsessing over numbers in magazines, bench racing sessions with their friends, video games, etc.  Eventually they end up as older guys who love whatever cars/setups they grew up with, be it fast or slow.  

I don't see anyone obessing over a 1984 Honda accord that grew up during era....

[Mike DC]

             

I don't see anyone obessing over a 1984 Honda accord that grew up during era....

Those guys who grew up with cheap '84 models were driving 5.0 Mustangs and IROC Camaros.

---------------------------------------



Look at the Hondas about 10 years later, though . . .

[G-man]

Thanks for replies so far...

So lets say I got a BDS (I assume thats the Roots style) drove it around a bit, - N then decided to get a Twin Screw instead, both making same power, i just simply changed the supercharger type.

What should I notice different between the 2? Like in a practical sense... will one feel like its not pulling as hard, will one feel like it has lag, not so instant, you have to wait for power with one, doesnt have that initial jump like the other... etc... Like, driving on the street... with 1 or the other... which will have more 'go' (acceleration) when you wanna have fun with it?

I know looks wise I like the blower sticking out of the hood on the charger... but just wondered in terms of how would one feel/work compare to the other in a descriptive sense. Can someone describe the difference in some graspable idea? I never had a blower, so I wouldn't know.

What I do know is, I like to be able to put foot on accelerator and for the car to just wanna go hard, rather than 'building up' for the power... just drive, put foot down, car jumps forward.

Thats why I liked natural aspirated motors, I was always under the impression they were totally responsive, no delay, it did what you wanted it to do.

Can an air cleaner be had to stick out of the hood if I chose to stick to Natural Aspirated, without the super charger?

[RCCDrew]

Great video, explains a lot of your questions. It also explains why turbos are the best power adder available.

http://youtu.be/oyeotHRZ-XI

[Lord Warlock]

when boost kicks in, you'll know it.  my twin turbo import the engine pulls strong till 2500rpm and by then the turbos would kick in and you knew when the boost started to pull, would force head back to headrest and keep it there.  A twin screw/roots supercharger is on during whole rpm range with no lag, but tends to roll off at higher rpms..unless tuned right. 

While I enjoyed having a turbo coupe, I enjoyed the supercharged car more, which is why I chose to put a twin screw on the 2010 challenger.

My cousin installed a turbocharger to his 383 68 charger back in the mid 70s, and it was an awesome ride, but still wasn't king of the hill in his town.  Never cared for a blower sticking thru the hood where you couldn't see to the right, fine for drag strips, crap for street driving.  Great for shows though. 

[Mike DC]

Great video, explains a lot of your questions. It also explains why turbos are the best power adder available.

If by 'best' you mean most power potential, then I agree.  

But if you care about weight, complexity, cost, heat, power curve, and responsiveness . . . turbo has its downsides.  



If a hypothetical V8 engine was only allowed to make, say, 500 horsepower & torque, no matter how it was done?  Then I would probably vote naturally aspirated for 1st choice.  Supercharged 2nd.  Turbo last.  

N/A is the least powerful but it also has the least side effects.  
   

[G-man]

Thanks guys.

I did more reading and listening over youtube, forums, articles, magazines etc by those who build them etc...

Now they say the turbo is the most 'efficient'. Does that mean Fuel economy wise or efficient in making power?

I want around 700-800 Horsepower (Engine). At the wheels I guess it would be less once you take into account the losses.

Now...

I wanted something that is streetable, and can be driven 'somewhat' of a distance. Not a drive up the street and fuel up type of car.

This is why I was even thinking maybe 600-650 HP at the most to get some decent mileage.

From what I am understanding... I could get that kind of mileage with 600 HP Naturally aspirated... less so supercharged... however turbod... I could run 1000 Horsepower and get that kind of mileage...

If that is the case... would a 1000 horsepowered turbo car simply out do a 700HP Supercharged car?

I mean... its more power... however, Im wondering about the power curve, how much would that matter, or is the 1000hp still gonna out do a 700 hp supercharged car?

Im trying to get street happy (for cruising) but have some serious power to go when you want it to.

Superchargers make sense that they have low end power... so if im rolling on the street, and then nail it... cars just gonna go from the start, while a turbo will not.

However if the turbo car is 1000 HP while the supercharged car is 700 HP (to try and get some mileage)... would the turbo car still 'go' off the start simply because its 1000HP compare to the supercharged motor?

THen you have the look....

I like the aircleaner sticking out the hood look.

Can you get that 'without' a supercharger?

Lastly - to what I think is being said..

Power adders are there to make more power than a Natural aspirated motor will.

So theoretically if I can simply make say 800 Horsepower "Naturaly aspirated", and then build a 2nd car with a Supercharger '800' horsepower...

Which of the 2 will run better/more efficient (for cruising) and which would generally go better? (acceleration wise)? I always understood natural aspirated is always best as it is un-assisted, the only reason you go to power-adders (like turbos or superchargers) is to get more power than a natural aspirated motor will. So since the level of power I want is achievable with or without power-adders... why build it with a power adder if you can do it without? what advantage is there to power adders vs non powered (at the same 800HP)?

Where these questions stem from is because of the 68 Charger that was built for Nick Suckow (the purple charger for the handicapped guy).

That car had 19.5" wide tires in the rear, 4 link rear, 600-650 Horsepower "Supercharged" with a BDS roots.

Now he could of simply got a 528ci Hemi and made that power with no supercharger or heat.

He could of got over 1000HP with a turbo and run it 20MPG to work and stuff and then when he wants to race it, turn boost up and get 1000HP when you want it (Something super chargers cant do as they are always on).

N thats why I'm asking.

[RCCDrew]

Great video, explains a lot of your questions. It also explains why turbos are the best power adder available.

If by 'best' you mean most power potential, then I agree.  

But if you care about weight, complexity, cost, heat, power curve, and responsiveness . . . turbo has its downsides.  



If a hypothetical V8 engine was only allowed to make, say, 500 horsepower & torque, no matter how it was done?  Then I would probably vote naturally aspirated for 1st choice.  Supercharged 2nd.  Turbo last.  

N/A is the least powerful but it also has the least side effects.  
   

By best I mean easiest on the main bearings.

[1974dodgecharger]

be prepared to shell out money, lmao....your gonna pay a lot for a roots style....BDS is not the BEST there are others out there.   You can go to endless options on a roots now these days such as 2 lobe which was started by Hampton and gave the most boost every seen then people started to copy it. 

There wills always be better, but get what you want that makes you happy, don't like the thing sticking out the hood great get something else, like the thing out the hood then get roots, no matter how you look at it there are endless way now to add power to a car and choices endless.

pic what you like.....

[Mefirst]

You talk about a 700-800Hp engine. Have the thought even crossed your mind you do also need transmission/rearaxel/chassies mods to cope with that amount of horsepower... Not to poop on your dream but you do need to think about the car as a whole when going up to those kinds of horsepower numbers...

Have you even driven a car with that much power??? I run a stroked 440 (493cids) in my strip/street Charger making 770hp N/A and its not that much fun on normal roads and street tires, its brutal and lethal in so many ways..

My advise is, build a 500-550hp engine and youll be so much happier.. but if you feel the need, well then build yourself a 800hp engine, just be prepared for misery, empty wallet, headaches and cursing...

My

/Tom

[RCCDrew]

You talk about a 700-800Hp engine. Have the thought even crossed your mind you do also need transmission/rearaxel/chassies mods to cope with that amount of horsepower... Not to poop on your dream but you do need to think about the car as a whole when going up to those kinds of horsepower numbers...

Have you even driven a car with that much power??? I run a stroked 440 (493cids) in my strip/street Charger making 770hp N/A and its not that much fun on normal roads and street tires, its brutal and lethal in so many ways..

My advise is, build a 500-550hp engine and youll be so much happier.. but if you feel the need, well then build yourself a 800hp engine, just be prepared for misery, empty wallet, headaches and cursing...

My

/Tom

One of the benefits of boost is that you can run a milder engine (cam, heads, intake, etc ) and still make power. Drivability is increased.

[Mefirst]

.. Drivability is increased.

Not entirely true.. or yes/kinda, but it that does not change the fact that the drivetrain needs an upgrade.. You are running the engine with boost, boost creates heat, and you need to be able to control the heat for drivability, thats one issue that needs attention. For drivebility I would build a turbo engine, more hassle with bending/welding tubes than a blower deal, but a turbo engine would be more drivable/everyday use, specially if cooling is good and using EFi to feed it.. I would not recommend building a N/A engine using a old 440 engine block, an aftermarket block yes, then one could make power making use of a large displacement engine....

[phantom]

I had a '71 Chevelle with a 598cui Shafiroff-engine which dynoed 774hp, N/A with a Holley Dominator 1000. All i can say, be prepared to fill the gas tank OFTEN if you go the N/A route. Turbo-engines are a little kinder there i think, dont know about the roots blowers though.

[G-man]

I was looking at either an all aluminum 426 Hemi with a Supercharger, or a 572ci all alloy motor NA.

From Hemi builders I been told that in theory if both produced the same power (which they never generally do), the blown motor will be 'faster' with the same numbers over an NA car simply because the torque/power curve ends up larger.

They also said it makes it for easier driving low.

But then they said since they cost to build a complete alloy 426 and 572 being the same... you may as well get a blown 572ci.

But thats gonna be 1000+ horsepower and fuel... well... i cant even cruise for 100 miles with that.

[1974dodgecharger]

Why aren't the folks who have blown chargers talking here?