How wide tires for 650 hp?

[erlendch]

A shop is building a pro-touring Charger for me. It has a modern Hemi with 650 hp. We are going with 20s, and we are making the wheel wells a lot bigger to accommodate. I was hoping to get advice on how wide they should be? How wide is needed with that amount of power?

[myk]

I would think you'd have to test and tune different widths of tires to get the optimum results, or see what you like.  Different widths would alter how the car handles and your preference for the way the car handles is subjective.  Maybe someone in here running 20's could offer advice?  Board member and road course racing driver MSRacing89 runs a 19" tire out back and with a 295 wide tire for his '68, so for you I'd start there...

[Mike DC]

              
The low & midrange torque makes you need rubber more than the HP figure.

On a car the size & weight of a Charger it's pretty hard to overdo the tires.  You will probably run out of room under the chassis (or decide it looks goofy, or find something you don't want to cut, etc) before you run out of benefit from going bigger.

 

I recall Mark Stielow talking about one of his '69 Camaro builds a few years ago (the Mule?).  He picked out the biggest mass-production OEM street tire he could find (for hi-po sports car purposes).  At that time that was the rear tires off a Dodge Viper.  He started with that tire and built the rear of his Camaro around it.  
               

[cbrestorations]

i know guys running 1500hp on 9" tires. on a 20" rim ur screwed, there will be no traction compared to a 15". there is no sidewall on a 20" rim and thats where you get ur launch from. you would have more grip on a 15x8 rim with a drag radial than you will with a 20x11 rim with a drag radial aswell. if you look at the tire patch on the ground and did a square inch comparison the larger rim cars loose. you also have to run much more air pressure to hold the car up with thin sidewalls reducing ur grip even more.

[myk]

But would that apply to his "pro-touring" goals?  I don't think straight line domination is his intention.  Then again, even for a road course car I wouldn't go larger than 19".  Hell I won't do anything bigger than 18" on mine...

[cbrestorations]

even formula 1, the fastest road racing cars in the world have good size sidewalls to them

[myk]

Like how much?  Personally, I would feel the 20" wheel would add too much rotational mass and inertia, hurting performance; that would be my concern...

[JR]

I'd just go for a 20x10 wheel and be done with it. You can fit a 10 inch wide wheel in the rear of a 2nd gen without cutting anything.

That should be enough if you drive it sensibly. Thats more rubber than the hellcats get from the factory.

[XH29N0G]

I know nothing about 20 inch rims and my car is not in that range HP wise, but is close to 600 ft lb.  For me, an important consideration was the tire rubber compound. 275 x 15 wouldn't hold in second below 35 mph and all of first was useless.  255 x 15 with a softer compound will hold from a stop without dropping the clutch from high RPM.   

[alfaitalia]

Too much tyre and too much grip ruin a powerful rear drive car to me. You need just enough to keep it safe for normal driving but not so much that your cant steer from the rear on a moderate amount of throttle. If you need a great boot full of throttle to get the rear moving it will lack on the limit feel and adjustability ....and will be gripping one second then in a ferocious slide, that you probably wont catch, the next....its all about grip to slide transition.

Also great wide tyres will give you less grip in the rain due to less lbs per square inch of contact patch to push the tyre down through the standing water. Hello aquaplane....hello lamp post! LOL! If you never use it in the rain then don't worry about it!

[Mytur Binsdirti]

7.75 X 14 should be fine.

[Mike DC]

7.75 X 14 should be fine.

I guess the whole thing depends on what your idea of "good" traction is.  Fun to drive?  Safe to drive?  Hardest G-force, period?  Straight line vs cornering? 

[erlendch]

I dont care how fast it goes in a straight line, but not just spin, need to be able to handle the power and it should do corners well. My shop recommended 20 inch 345/30/20 in the back and 275/35/19 in the front, but I was getting concerned as 345 looks like a monster tire to me and I'm afraid it be tacky.. Trying to keep things subtle..

[comet_666]

Personally a 20" wheel is not particularly subtile. Not saying it looks bad but it is noticable for sure.

[Lennard]

  20" and not tacky don't go together.

[erlendch]

Have you seen the Detroit Speed Mayhem build? Just Google it, plenty of pictures. Now I would pick a less screaming color, keep bumpers in chrome, definitely don't use modern rear lights and there are many more things I don't like on the car, but it has 20 inch wheels and with that stance I'm surprised that I don't find them too big, just scare wide..

[Lennard]

I just checked them out. They would look great on stage coach.

[erlendch]

How do you like this wheel?

[keepat]

Looks great! It has a magnum 500 look to it!
Pat

[phantom]

I just checked them out. They would look great on stage coach.

Not everyone is into 14" dog dishes or 15" Magnums.

BTW, awesome wheels, erlendch  

[68pplcharger]

How do you like this wheel?

wheel looks sweet...

I've got 17x11" on the rear of mine and it looks great. Doesn't
give the car that cartoon look like a 20" does... IMHO   I've got 17x9.5" rims on the front. My car is set up to handle the corners and does that awesome. I don't have track testing yet, but the feel of the car in the corners is amazing. I haven't even tuned the suspension on the charger yet and it blows away my BWM 135i with the factory M handling package. Mine has a lot more than 650hp and the GSD3 compound tires (same as racing tires) works very well. The car pulls like a rocket is strapped to your ass.

[out there]

That is a great looking rim. Looked up the Detroit Speed build.   Sweet!

[WHITE AND RED 69]

Pick a tire that is the same size on a car from the factory. That way you know that a tire manufacturer will always make that size and not become discontinued. Nothing worse than not being able to find a replacement tire when you need it. If you are dead set on that big of a tire on the back go with a 345/35/19 same as a 2006-09 viper.

A 345/20 is going to leave you a slim tire selection. Also a 30 series tire is going to be rough on the streets. You are going to feel every bump, crack, and pothole out there no matter how good your suspension is. I wouldn't go with anything lower than a 35 series for something used on the street. 

What suspension setup are you going with?

[Lennard]

I just checked them out. They would look great on stage coach.

Not everyone is into 14" dog dishes or 15" Magnums.

BTW, awesome wheels, erlendch  

The wheels look great.  It's the rubber band tires around it that makes it look  .

[JR]

That is a great looking wheel. Go for it, dude.

[erlendch]

-

[erlendch]

Pick a tire that is the same size on a car from the factory. That way you know that a tire manufacturer will always make that size and not become discontinued. Nothing worse than not being able to find a replacement tire when you need it. If you are dead set on that big of a tire on the back go with a 345/35/19 same as a 2006-09 viper.

A 345/20 is going to leave you a slim tire selection. Also a 30 series tire is going to be rough on the streets. You are going to feel every bump, crack, and pothole out there no matter how good your suspension is. I wouldn't go with anything lower than a 35 series for something used on the street. 

What suspension setup are you going with?

Thanks for advice on wheel size, makes a lot of sense. Especially with the Magnum looking while I think rubber band style tire would be weird..

What are you running, Red And White?

Oh, and I don't know what suspension setup they picked.

[erlendch]

@White And Red: Just looked it up, I think 2006-2009 Viper is running  345/30R19 (https://tiresize.com/tires/Dodge/Viper/). Those would be just as short as 345/30/20...

[phantom]

Pick a tire that is the same size on a car from the factory. That way you know that a tire manufacturer will always make that size and not become discontinued. Nothing worse than not being able to find a replacement tire when you need it. If you are dead set on that big of a tire on the back go with a 345/35/19 same as a 2006-09 viper.

A 345/20 is going to leave you a slim tire selection. Also a 30 series tire is going to be rough on the streets. You are going to feel every bump, crack, and pothole out there no matter how good your suspension is. I wouldn't go with anything lower than a 35 series for something used on the street. 

What suspension setup are you going with?

Thanks for advice on wheel size, makes a lot of sense. Especially with the Magnum looking while I think rubber band style tire would be weird..

What are you running, Red And White?

Oh, and I don't know what suspension setup they picked.

You just let them build your car without any input?

[myk]

Seriously dude.  You should be aware of every nut and bolt they use on your car.  That's a lot of money to not know the details of what they're building for you...

[sixty-niner]

I run 345/35/19's in the back, only 1 tire co. makes them to my knowledge, perelli. and they are 600 a tire.  They have ALOT MORE SIDEWALL than the 345 30 r 20 wheels.  Its a very nice compromise  between a big tire with no side wall and a small tire with a lot of side wall.  it makes the charger look very mean.   They are what steve strope has put on alot of his rides.  petrol charger and 515 gtb.  I love the look.

[erlendch]

Myk: You are obviously right.

sixty-niner: Do you have pictures of your car? That would be very helpful.

All: The shops first suggestion was the wheel attached to this post. But without the twist on the spoke. I think it looks too modern, but they used a similar looking wheel on their most recent build, Espionage (https://ringbrothers.com/1965_mustang_espionage) and I gotta say it looks surprisingly good. Thoughts?

[JR]

Whoa, hold up. Do I understand this right? The RING BROTHERS are building your car?

If so, holy crap, that's gonna be an amazing car. I've always wondered how a Charger would turn with them.

Those guys are amazing.

[erlendch]

Yes, to say I am extremely excited would be an understatement!

[keepat]

Very cool! please post pictures of the build!
Pat

[JR]

Ok, the not knowing the specifics of what they're doing makes sense now. They are one of the few shops id completely trust to build a car to their tastes.

I wonder if theyll start selling any custom parts for Chargers like they have done with other makes/models after using your car for a template.

In case anyone isnt familiar with them, here is some of their work.















Here is a Petrolicious film featuring them;
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=intent://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dv_xmJt3pwcQ%23Intent%3Bscheme%3Dhttp%3Bpackage%3Dcom.google.android.youtube%3BS.browser_fallback_url%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253Dv_xmJt3pwcQ%3BS.android.intent.extra.REFERRER_NAME%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%3Bend&ved=0ahUKEwjepfWu497KAhWEQiYKHcTNDLIQjjgIITAB&usg=AFQjCNE-8VZlRlJEaoa6r5Q8XJjd2L6LJQ&sig2=6EmJWR-fbt0BenUdR1k65g

Here they are on Jay Lenos Garage with the Chevelle.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=intent://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DGTQoiYY9_yQ%23Intent%3Bscheme%3Dhttp%3Bpackage%3Dcom.google.android.youtube%3BS.browser_fallback_url%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253DGTQoiYY9_yQ%3BS.android.intent.extra.REFERRER_NAME%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%3Bend&ved=0ahUKEwi72L7E497KAhVIeCYKHdw7DhsQjjgIGzAA&usg=AFQjCNFeMuLSjuwKygHGxpqha7-JWutEBw&sig2=6qBZW6WPzq9x6pnIUTQoLA

And the Mustang;
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=intent://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DMsOX9z59GsE%23Intent%3Bscheme%3Dhttp%3Bpackage%3Dcom.google.android.youtube%3BS.browser_fallback_url%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253DMsOX9z59GsE%3BS.android.intent.extra.REFERRER_NAME%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%3Bend&ved=0ahUKEwi72L7E497KAhVIeCYKHdw7DhsQjjgIHzAB&usg=AFQjCNHLg5RkWQZIvUwyIQX68A9XNs2pOg&sig2=HuoJAQm9sOvnVO2zdhkvzA

They are incredible.

[WHITE AND RED 69]

@White And Red: Just looked it up, I think 2006-2009 Viper is running  345/30R19 (https://tiresize.com/tires/Dodge/Viper/). Those would be just as short as 345/30/20...

Whoops! I thought I saw somewhere it was a 35 series?

Thanks for advice on wheel size, makes a lot of sense. Especially with the Magnum looking while I think rubber band style tire would be weird..

What are you running, Red And White?

Oh, and I don't know what suspension setup they picked.

I've got 245/40/18 and 295/40/18s on mine.

Ring Brothers! Damn! Bout time they built a mopar. I'd let em run with their ideas and it'll be one sweet charger when its done.    I love the chevelle and "splitter" mustang they built.

[G-man]

Just remember... not everyone has the same taste, so irrelevant of who is building your car, to let them build whatever, and you spending big $$$ and not knowing what you are getting is insane.

[out there]

Some shops don't need instruction on every aspect of a build. A few are quick to jump on people for what they decide to do or not do. Not very cool unless you are trying to limit those that want to participate on this site. Just an observation as someone new to the site and wanting to enjoy it. 

[myk]

Damn.  Those are some fine machines...

[funknut]

That wheel looks amazing.  I looked for it on the HRE site but don't see it, so I'm guessing it's a custom unit for now.

Can't wait to see how the build progresses!

[sixty-niner]

my car is in the body shop all apart but check out these high dollar builds with the same rear tire configuration that I have.  the ring brothers , wow, I would let them do their thing and would not be to concerned about it coming out amazing!!!!!  I know it will be amazing!!!
Here are some pix of my friends high dollar build with that same rear tire configuration I have.  The rear is meaty!!!

http://purevisiondesign.com/rides/galleries/515-gtb.html

[erlendch]

Sure, I'll share some pics as soon as there is something interesting, still early in the process. I'll probably share even more regularly on y Instagram though: https://www.instagram.com/erlendc/. Which has a lot of other cars too..

[G-man]

The colour of your car in the sunset picture on that page you posted with mountains the background looks very nice. Would of been nice to build a charger and keep that one as is. Nice Charger you got

[erlendch]

The colour of your car in the sunset picture on that page you posted with mountains the background looks very nice. Would of been nice to build a charger and keep that one as is. Nice Charger you got

I bought a donor car for this project, I'd definitely rather keep the gold one as is, although that's not in my power anymore as I sold it  

[erlendch]

Here are the two wheels in a rendering on the car. What's your favorite of the two and why? Thanks in advance for your input

[out there]

That's a tough one. Either would look great. I think on a car of this caliber, I like to see the high end braking components through the spokes.
The first has some resemblance to original rims, but I would choose the second. Really looking forward to this build   

[JR]

Tough call, they both look great. I like the machined details of the first one, but the 2nd one looks more racey.

The top one will probably age better, though.

You should make a dedicated build thread for this. It's already epic.

[keepat]

 The renditions are awesome!! but the top wheel even though I liked it at 1st, it looks a little bit too much like a Pontiac rally II wheel, not a magnum 500?  Please post any rendition you may have as I see a lot of cool details they building in your car.  Good luck with the build look forward to watching it.
Pat

[sixty-niner]

both wheels look great!!, its the tires I would loose.  I dont dig the red stripe, I feel it would date your car as well.  but its your call.

[phantom]

I'd go with the 5 spokes, the other ones has a little "old Pontiac" feeling, like Keepat said. Plus, they look alot like the ones i am considering for my car

[erlendch]

Thanks for the feedback guys! I'd love to share more renderings and pictures from the process, let me just check with the Ringbrothers first if that's ok for them.

Yeah, I wanted to see if anyone called me out on those wheels being for Pontiac, no surprise you did! I wanted something based on the Magnum wheel, like picture below, but they don't exist from a quality wheel maker in 19'/20's as far as I could see.. Have anyone here seen anything similar in that size?

Oh, and I'd like to keep a Classic look so definitely keeping the red stripe..

[out there]

Always liked the red stripe myself

[G-man]

The colour of your car in the sunset picture on that page you posted with mountains the background looks very nice. Would of been nice to build a charger and keep that one as is. Nice Charger you got

I bought a donor car for this project, I'd definitely rather keep the gold one as is, although that's not in my power anymore as I sold it  

O well. Hope the new one is everything you expect

[WHITE AND RED 69]

What about these?

http://www.mhtwheels.com/mopar-u439-w-5715.htm

[1974dodgecharger]

20 inch rims are for folks who are just, 'modern' no point in getting 20s this is a OLD SCHOOL CHARGER get some 14s...roughly 14x7....Ma Mopar built these cars with 14s and knew not to use 20s....traction be fine.

[erlendch]

I went with the 5 spoke modern HRE wheel. It took me some time to get used to the thought of such a modern wheel on the Charger, but I rather do that then trying to mimic the Magnum wheel or any of the other classic wheels.

Thanks for your input all!

[erlendch]

What about these?

http://www.mhtwheels.com/mopar-u439-w-5715.htm

Oh, and thanks to White And Red 69 for finding the wheels I was looking for. But after seeing them on this Coronet I lost interest. They just don't look right imo..

[1974dodgecharger]

THATS why I said 14inch rims are best.......

What about these?

http://www.mhtwheels.com/mopar-u439-w-5715.htm

Oh, and thanks to White And Red 69 for finding the wheels I was looking for. But after seeing them on this Coronet I lost interest. They just don't look right imo..

[WHITE AND RED 69]

What about these?

http://www.mhtwheels.com/mopar-u439-w-5715.htm

Oh, and thanks to White And Red 69 for finding the wheels I was looking for. But after seeing them on this Coronet I lost interest. They just don't look right imo..

Yeah, they look better in the pic than they do on that Coronet. The HRE's will look sweet. Can't go wrong with a 5 spoke wheel   

[69rtsetracpac]

20 inch rims are for folks who are just, 'modern' no point in getting 20s this is a OLD SCHOOL CHARGER get some 14s...roughly 14x7....Ma Mopar built these cars with 14s and knew not to use 20s....traction be fine.

You wouldn't even go 15"?

[Q5XX29]

Ring Brothers do incredible work. I love the Pantera they did, and not far from where I live, a guy had them build this:

http://ringbrothers.com/1967_mustang_reactor

I have seen it at a few local shows. Amazing.

Can't wait to see your car when it is finished!