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How to diagnose Firecore RTR ignition system

Started by 66FBCharger, January 25, 2016, 08:17:48 AM

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66FBCharger

I went to start the Charger yesterday to move it forward in the garage. It wouldn't start. I checked for fuel it was fine. I thought it might be flooded so I sprayed some ether into the carb and it still didn't fire. I didn't check for spark because it has been bitterly cold. It seems like I have no spark. I'll have to check for spark when it gets a little warmer.
How do I diagnose if I have a bad coil or the module is bad?
'69 Charger R/T 440 4 speed T5, '70 Road Runner 440+6 4 speed, '73 'Cuda 340 4 speed, '66 Charger 383 Auto
SOLD!:'69 Charger R/T S.E. 440 4 speed 3.54 Dana rolling body

myk

If you suspect the Fire core is the issue, don't hesitate to contact Ron for answers...

Back N Black

Disconnect the connector at the distributor, turn on the ignition switch and touch the male prong on the engine harness to ground. Each time the prong is grounded and pulled away you should get a spark from the coil. If it sparks the distributor pickup is the problem, if not it's the ECU or coil. Check the gap on the pickup coil  should be .008 tho.

66FBCharger

Quote from: Back N Black on January 25, 2016, 10:46:36 AM
Disconnect the connector at the distributor, turn on the ignition switch and touch the male prong on the engine harness to ground. Each time the prong is grounded and pulled away you should get a spark from the coil. If it sparks the distributor pickup is the problem, if not it's the ECU or coil. Check the gap on the pickup coil  should be .008 tho.
Thanks Back n Black. That is exactly the info I am looking for.
'69 Charger R/T 440 4 speed T5, '70 Road Runner 440+6 4 speed, '73 'Cuda 340 4 speed, '66 Charger 383 Auto
SOLD!:'69 Charger R/T S.E. 440 4 speed 3.54 Dana rolling body

firefighter3931

First thing you need to do is check for spark  ;)

Make sure that your battery is fully charged and you're getting 12V to the coil + terminal in both the run & start positions.  :scope:

Often when it's real cold out and the car's choke is missing or improperly adjusted the engine will not fire. These old engine's are cold blooded and need a little coaxing to get going....

Let us know what you find out  :yesnod:


Ron

68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs

66FBCharger

Quote from: firefighter3931 on January 25, 2016, 01:27:17 PM
First thing you need to do is check for spark  ;)

Make sure that your battery is fully charged and you're getting 12V to the coil + terminal in both the run & start positions.  :scope:

Often when it's real cold out and the car's choke is missing or improperly adjusted the engine will not fire. These old engine's are cold blooded and need a little coaxing to get going....

Let us know what you find out  :yesnod:


Ron


I will check for spark.
I'll let you know what I find.
Thanks, Ron.
John
'69 Charger R/T 440 4 speed T5, '70 Road Runner 440+6 4 speed, '73 'Cuda 340 4 speed, '66 Charger 383 Auto
SOLD!:'69 Charger R/T S.E. 440 4 speed 3.54 Dana rolling body

66FBCharger

Quote from: 66FBCharger on January 25, 2016, 01:48:52 PM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on January 25, 2016, 01:27:17 PM
First thing you need to do is check for spark  ;)

Make sure that your battery is fully charged and you're getting 12V to the coil + terminal in both the run & start positions.  :scope:

Often when it's real cold out and the car's choke is missing or improperly adjusted the engine will not fire. These old engine's are cold blooded and need a little coaxing to get going....

Let us know what you find out  :yesnod:


Ron


I will check for spark.
I'll let you know what I find.
Thanks, Ron.
John
Ok it I finally found a little time to get out in the garage. I threw the battery charger on the battery on low for an hour to ensure the battery was fully charged. At the battery I got 12.93 Volts (measured using a digital meter). I checked for spark and got none. With the key on I got 11.65 volts on both sides of the coil. While cranking the starter I got approximately 10 volts on both sides of the coil.
What should I check next? I need to get this car back up and running. I am going to need it for my daughter's junior prom.
'69 Charger R/T 440 4 speed T5, '70 Road Runner 440+6 4 speed, '73 'Cuda 340 4 speed, '66 Charger 383 Auto
SOLD!:'69 Charger R/T S.E. 440 4 speed 3.54 Dana rolling body

b5blue


c00nhunterjoe

10-11 volts while cranking is not uncommon, especially if its a stock starter.

66FBCharger

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on March 06, 2016, 08:01:14 PM
10-11 volts while cranking is not uncommon, especially if its a stock starter.
Yes it is a stock starter.
'69 Charger R/T 440 4 speed T5, '70 Road Runner 440+6 4 speed, '73 'Cuda 340 4 speed, '66 Charger 383 Auto
SOLD!:'69 Charger R/T S.E. 440 4 speed 3.54 Dana rolling body

firefighter3931

John,

Where do you have the black wire attached ? You need a good engine ground to complete the circuit. I like to use one of the intake manifold valley pan end strap bolts which are close to the distributor.

If the ground is good....... the next thing we need to do is a primary and secondary resistance test on the coil.



Ron
68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs

66FBCharger


The ground is on one of the valley pan retaining bolts. What's the best way to check the ground?
Please explain how to do the primary and secondary resistance test on the coil.
'69 Charger R/T 440 4 speed T5, '70 Road Runner 440+6 4 speed, '73 'Cuda 340 4 speed, '66 Charger 383 Auto
SOLD!:'69 Charger R/T S.E. 440 4 speed 3.54 Dana rolling body

firefighter3931

That ground should be fine  :2thumbs:

To check resistance with an ohm meter, remove all wires ;


(1) primary test ; place the probes on the coil + and coil - terminals and measure resistance

(2) secondary test ; place one probe on the + terminal and the other on the tower and measure resistance


Report back with your findings



Ron
68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs

c00nhunterjoe

The coil is grounded good to the engine, but is the engine grounded good to the frame?

66FBCharger

Quote from: firefighter3931 on March 07, 2016, 04:27:53 PM
That ground should be fine  :2thumbs:

To check resistance with an ohm meter, remove all wires ;


(1) primary test ; place the probes on the coil + and coil - terminals and measure resistance

(2) secondary test ; place one probe on the + terminal and the other on the tower and measure resistance


Report back with your findings



Ron

Ron,
I checked the primary and secondary resistance this morning. Here are my findings:
Primary test: Resistance is .9 (using the 200 scale on my DVM).
Secondary test: The resistance read infinite on the  200 scale and 8.8 0n the 200 K scale.
John

Quote from: c00nhunterjoe on March 07, 2016, 08:16:24 PM
The coil is grounded good to the engine, but is the engine grounded good to the frame?
The engine to firewall ground is installed and tight. Is there a good way to test the quality of the ground with a meter?
'69 Charger R/T 440 4 speed T5, '70 Road Runner 440+6 4 speed, '73 'Cuda 340 4 speed, '66 Charger 383 Auto
SOLD!:'69 Charger R/T S.E. 440 4 speed 3.54 Dana rolling body

firefighter3931

Quote from: 66FBCharger on March 08, 2016, 07:48:25 AM
Ron,
I checked the primary and secondary resistance this morning. Here are my findings:
Primary test: Resistance is .9 (using the 200 scale on my DVM).
Secondary test: The resistance read infinite on the  200 scale and 8.8 0n the 200 K scale.
John

Is there a good way to test the quality of the ground with a meter?



The coil primary/secondary values are fine.  :2thumbs:

To check the ground ; using the voltmeter put the red probe on the + battery terminal. Put the black probe on your ground source and check voltage.

The voltage should be almost the same as placing the probes on both battery terminals. If the voltage drops between the two tests you have a suspect ground.


Ron
68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs

66FBCharger

If the grounds are good, what's next to check? I was hoping it was just the coil.
'69 Charger R/T 440 4 speed T5, '70 Road Runner 440+6 4 speed, '73 'Cuda 340 4 speed, '66 Charger 383 Auto
SOLD!:'69 Charger R/T S.E. 440 4 speed 3.54 Dana rolling body

66FBCharger

Quote from: firefighter3931 on March 08, 2016, 03:34:49 PM
Quote from: 66FBCharger on March 08, 2016, 07:48:25 AM
Ron,
I checked the primary and secondary resistance this morning. Here are my findings:
Primary test: Resistance is .9 (using the 200 scale on my DVM).
Secondary test: The resistance read infinite on the  200 scale and 8.8 0n the 200 K scale.
John

Is there a good way to test the quality of the ground with a meter?



The coil primary/secondary values are fine.  :2thumbs:

To check the ground ; using the voltmeter put the red probe on the + battery terminal. Put the black probe on your ground source and check voltage.

The voltage should be almost the same as placing the probes on both battery terminals. If the voltage drops between the two tests you have a suspect ground.


Ron
Quote from: 66FBCharger on March 08, 2016, 03:38:48 PM
If the grounds are good, what's next to check? I was hoping it was just the coil.

I just got home and checked the grounds. They are perfect. Battery read 12.6 V as did the engine ground, ignition ground and coil bracket.
'69 Charger R/T 440 4 speed T5, '70 Road Runner 440+6 4 speed, '73 'Cuda 340 4 speed, '66 Charger 383 Auto
SOLD!:'69 Charger R/T S.E. 440 4 speed 3.54 Dana rolling body

firefighter3931

With those things checking out it points to the module in the distributor or the pickup. Next test is to measure resistance between the orange and red wires.

Let me know that result


Ron



68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs

firefighter3931

One other thing.... Check the reluctor gap. It should be .008-.010


Ron
68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs

66FBCharger

Quote from: firefighter3931 on March 08, 2016, 07:27:45 PM
With those things checking out it points to the module in the distributor or the pickup. Next test is to measure resistance between the orange and red wires.

Let me know that result


Ron





I checked the resistance between the orange and red terminals this morning. I got a reading on the 200 scale of infinity.

Quote from: firefighter3931 on March 08, 2016, 07:36:04 PM
One other thing.... Check the reluctor gap. It should be .008-.010

Ron




I didn't have any non magnetic feeler gauges so I used a matchbook cover. The match book cover is .010" thick. The match book cover slid in with no resistance but it was not loose. I would say the gap is .010" - .011". If you thin this could be the problem I can buy some non magnetic feeler gauges and close the gap down.
'69 Charger R/T 440 4 speed T5, '70 Road Runner 440+6 4 speed, '73 'Cuda 340 4 speed, '66 Charger 383 Auto
SOLD!:'69 Charger R/T S.E. 440 4 speed 3.54 Dana rolling body

firefighter3931

Quote from: 66FBCharger on March 09, 2016, 08:06:06 AM
Quote from: firefighter3931 on March 08, 2016, 07:27:45 PM
With those things checking out it points to the module in the distributor or the pickup. Next test is to measure resistance between the orange and red wires.

Let me know that result


Ron





I checked the resistance between the orange and red terminals this morning. I got a reading on the 200 scale of infinity.

Quote from: firefighter3931 on March 08, 2016, 07:36:04 PM
One other thing.... Check the reluctor gap. It should be .008-.010

Ron




I didn't have any non magnetic feeler gauges so I used a matchbook cover. The match book cover is .010" thick. The match book cover slid in with no resistance but it was not loose. I would say the gap is .010" - .011". If you thin this could be the problem I can buy some non magnetic feeler gauges and close the gap down.


Thanks John,

Those tests are showing that there is no issue with the pickup.....resistance and reluctor gap are in spec.  :yesnod:

The last culprit is the motherboard/ECU module. It will need to be replaced.

What voltage regulator are you running on the car ? Is it the factory points style...or has it been converted over to electronic ?

I spoke with FireCore this morning and they've had some RTR failures due to voltage spikes when using the old style voltage regulators that open/close rapidly adjusting voltage. No issues with the newer electronic replacement style regulators.


Ron
68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs

66FBCharger

Ron,
I will have to double check but I am pretty confident there is an electronic regulator on my car. I will confirm that after work today.
If it is the motherboard/ecu, does that mean I ship it back to have it replaced? How long does that typically take?
'69 Charger R/T 440 4 speed T5, '70 Road Runner 440+6 4 speed, '73 'Cuda 340 4 speed, '66 Charger 383 Auto
SOLD!:'69 Charger R/T S.E. 440 4 speed 3.54 Dana rolling body

firefighter3931

Quote from: 66FBCharger on March 09, 2016, 12:13:54 PM
Ron,
I will have to double check but I am pretty confident there is an electronic regulator on my car. I will confirm that after work today.
If it is the motherboard/ecu, does that mean I ship it back to have it replaced? How long does that typically take?


Hi John,

Yes the distributor will need to be shipped back. There is a 1 year warranty on all FireCore products. They will test it and replace what needs replacing. Not sure on the turnaround time but the sooner it gets there the sooner it comes back.  :yesnod:

Let me know what you find with the VR when you get home  :scope:


Ron
68 Charger R/T "Black Pig" Street/Strip bruiser, 70 Charger R/T 440-6bbl Cruiser. Firecore ignition  authorized dealer ; contact me with your needs

66FBCharger

Ron,
I bought the ignition around May 2014. I'm assuming it is out of warranty?
'69 Charger R/T 440 4 speed T5, '70 Road Runner 440+6 4 speed, '73 'Cuda 340 4 speed, '66 Charger 383 Auto
SOLD!:'69 Charger R/T S.E. 440 4 speed 3.54 Dana rolling body