How to diagnose Firecore RTR ignition system

[66FBCharger]

I went to start the Charger yesterday to move it forward in the garage. It wouldn't start. I checked for fuel it was fine. I thought it might be flooded so I sprayed some ether into the carb and it still didn't fire. I didn't check for spark because it has been bitterly cold. It seems like I have no spark. I'll have to check for spark when it gets a little warmer.
How do I diagnose if I have a bad coil or the module is bad?

[myk]

If you suspect the Fire core is the issue, don't hesitate to contact Ron for answers...

[Back N Black]

Disconnect the connector at the distributor, turn on the ignition switch and touch the male prong on the engine harness to ground. Each time the prong is grounded and pulled away you should get a spark from the coil. If it sparks the distributor pickup is the problem, if not it's the ECU or coil. Check the gap on the pickup coil  should be .008 tho.

[66FBCharger]

Disconnect the connector at the distributor, turn on the ignition switch and touch the male prong on the engine harness to ground. Each time the prong is grounded and pulled away you should get a spark from the coil. If it sparks the distributor pickup is the problem, if not it's the ECU or coil. Check the gap on the pickup coil  should be .008 tho.

Thanks Back n Black. That is exactly the info I am looking for.

[firefighter3931]

First thing you need to do is check for spark 

Make sure that your battery is fully charged and you're getting 12V to the coil + terminal in both the run & start positions. 

Often when it's real cold out and the car's choke is missing or improperly adjusted the engine will not fire. These old engine's are cold blooded and need a little coaxing to get going....

Let us know what you find out 


Ron

[66FBCharger]

First thing you need to do is check for spark 

Make sure that your battery is fully charged and you're getting 12V to the coil + terminal in both the run & start positions. 

Often when it's real cold out and the car's choke is missing or improperly adjusted the engine will not fire. These old engine's are cold blooded and need a little coaxing to get going....

Let us know what you find out 


Ron

I will check for spark.
I'll let you know what I find.
Thanks, Ron.
John

[66FBCharger]

First thing you need to do is check for spark 

Make sure that your battery is fully charged and you're getting 12V to the coil + terminal in both the run & start positions. 

Often when it's real cold out and the car's choke is missing or improperly adjusted the engine will not fire. These old engine's are cold blooded and need a little coaxing to get going....

Let us know what you find out 


Ron

I will check for spark.
I'll let you know what I find.
Thanks, Ron.
John

Ok it I finally found a little time to get out in the garage. I threw the battery charger on the battery on low for an hour to ensure the battery was fully charged. At the battery I got 12.93 Volts (measured using a digital meter). I checked for spark and got none. With the key on I got 11.65 volts on both sides of the coil. While cranking the starter I got approximately 10 volts on both sides of the coil.
What should I check next? I need to get this car back up and running. I am going to need it for my daughter's junior prom.

[b5blue]

That voltage seems pretty low. 

[c00nhunterjoe]

10-11 volts while cranking is not uncommon, especially if its a stock starter.

[66FBCharger]

10-11 volts while cranking is not uncommon, especially if its a stock starter.

Yes it is a stock starter.

[firefighter3931]

John,

Where do you have the black wire attached ? You need a good engine ground to complete the circuit. I like to use one of the intake manifold valley pan end strap bolts which are close to the distributor.

If the ground is good....... the next thing we need to do is a primary and secondary resistance test on the coil.



Ron

[66FBCharger]

The ground is on one of the valley pan retaining bolts. What's the best way to check the ground?
Please explain how to do the primary and secondary resistance test on the coil.

[firefighter3931]

That ground should be fine 

To check resistance with an ohm meter, remove all wires ;


(1) primary test ; place the probes on the coil + and coil - terminals and measure resistance

(2) secondary test ; place one probe on the + terminal and the other on the tower and measure resistance


Report back with your findings



Ron

[c00nhunterjoe]

The coil is grounded good to the engine, but is the engine grounded good to the frame?

[66FBCharger]

That ground should be fine 

To check resistance with an ohm meter, remove all wires ;


(1) primary test ; place the probes on the coil + and coil - terminals and measure resistance

(2) secondary test ; place one probe on the + terminal and the other on the tower and measure resistance


Report back with your findings



Ron

Ron,
I checked the primary and secondary resistance this morning. Here are my findings:
Primary test: Resistance is .9 (using the 200 scale on my DVM).
Secondary test: The resistance read infinite on the  200 scale and 8.8 0n the 200 K scale.
John

The coil is grounded good to the engine, but is the engine grounded good to the frame?

The engine to firewall ground is installed and tight. Is there a good way to test the quality of the ground with a meter?

[firefighter3931]

Ron,
I checked the primary and secondary resistance this morning. Here are my findings:
Primary test: Resistance is .9 (using the 200 scale on my DVM).
Secondary test: The resistance read infinite on the  200 scale and 8.8 0n the 200 K scale.
John

Is there a good way to test the quality of the ground with a meter?

The coil primary/secondary values are fine. 

To check the ground ; using the voltmeter put the red probe on the + battery terminal. Put the black probe on your ground source and check voltage.

The voltage should be almost the same as placing the probes on both battery terminals. If the voltage drops between the two tests you have a suspect ground.


Ron

[66FBCharger]

If the grounds are good, what's next to check? I was hoping it was just the coil.

[66FBCharger]

Ron,
I checked the primary and secondary resistance this morning. Here are my findings:
Primary test: Resistance is .9 (using the 200 scale on my DVM).
Secondary test: The resistance read infinite on the  200 scale and 8.8 0n the 200 K scale.
John

Is there a good way to test the quality of the ground with a meter?

The coil primary/secondary values are fine. 

To check the ground ; using the voltmeter put the red probe on the + battery terminal. Put the black probe on your ground source and check voltage.

The voltage should be almost the same as placing the probes on both battery terminals. If the voltage drops between the two tests you have a suspect ground.


Ron

If the grounds are good, what's next to check? I was hoping it was just the coil.

I just got home and checked the grounds. They are perfect. Battery read 12.6 V as did the engine ground, ignition ground and coil bracket.

[firefighter3931]

With those things checking out it points to the module in the distributor or the pickup. Next test is to measure resistance between the orange and red wires.

Let me know that result


Ron

[firefighter3931]

One other thing.... Check the reluctor gap. It should be .008-.010


Ron

[66FBCharger]

With those things checking out it points to the module in the distributor or the pickup. Next test is to measure resistance between the orange and red wires.

Let me know that result


Ron

I checked the resistance between the orange and red terminals this morning. I got a reading on the 200 scale of infinity.

One other thing.... Check the reluctor gap. It should be .008-.010

Ron




I didn't have any non magnetic feeler gauges so I used a matchbook cover. The match book cover is .010" thick. The match book cover slid in with no resistance but it was not loose. I would say the gap is .010" - .011". If you thin this could be the problem I can buy some non magnetic feeler gauges and close the gap down.

[firefighter3931]

With those things checking out it points to the module in the distributor or the pickup. Next test is to measure resistance between the orange and red wires.

Let me know that result


Ron

I checked the resistance between the orange and red terminals this morning. I got a reading on the 200 scale of infinity.

One other thing.... Check the reluctor gap. It should be .008-.010

Ron




I didn't have any non magnetic feeler gauges so I used a matchbook cover. The match book cover is .010" thick. The match book cover slid in with no resistance but it was not loose. I would say the gap is .010" - .011". If you thin this could be the problem I can buy some non magnetic feeler gauges and close the gap down.

Thanks John,

Those tests are showing that there is no issue with the pickup.....resistance and reluctor gap are in spec. 

The last culprit is the motherboard/ECU module. It will need to be replaced.

What voltage regulator are you running on the car ? Is it the factory points style...or has it been converted over to electronic ?

I spoke with FireCore this morning and they've had some RTR failures due to voltage spikes when using the old style voltage regulators that open/close rapidly adjusting voltage. No issues with the newer electronic replacement style regulators.


Ron

[66FBCharger]

Ron,
I will have to double check but I am pretty confident there is an electronic regulator on my car. I will confirm that after work today.
If it is the motherboard/ecu, does that mean I ship it back to have it replaced? How long does that typically take?

[firefighter3931]

Ron,
I will have to double check but I am pretty confident there is an electronic regulator on my car. I will confirm that after work today.
If it is the motherboard/ecu, does that mean I ship it back to have it replaced? How long does that typically take?

Hi John,

Yes the distributor will need to be shipped back. There is a 1 year warranty on all FireCore products. They will test it and replace what needs replacing. Not sure on the turnaround time but the sooner it gets there the sooner it comes back. 

Let me know what you find with the VR when you get home 


Ron

[66FBCharger]

Ron,
I bought the ignition around May 2014. I'm assuming it is out of warranty?

[firefighter3931]

Ron,
I bought the ignition around May 2014. I'm assuming it is out of warranty?

Yes, it will be out of warranty, unfortunately. 

Send me a pm with your phone number and we can talk about some options 


Ron

[66FBCharger]

I'll send you a PM in a bit.
Thanks for all your help, Ron.

[66FBCharger]

Thanks to Ron and Firecore for working with me to figure out the problem with my Firecore RTR system and getting me the parts to get my ignition fixed!!
After many PMs and some phone conversations we came to the conclusion that the ECU/motherboard in my Firecore RTR dist. was no good. Ron arranged to get an ECU/mother board shipped out to me along with a coil (the non stock looking coil). It is my understanding that the original looking type coil couldn't handle the voltage spikes and caused the ECU motherboard to fail.
I got the new ecu/motherboard installed, the coil mounted and wired and the 440 fired up.
I would like to send a big THANK YOU to Ron and Firecore for all their help and support. I recommend them highly if you are ever looking for an ignition system.
John

[RECHRGD]

So did you have the old style mechanical voltage regulator?

[firefighter3931]

Hey John,

Glad to hear she's back up & running  The coil thing is a bit perplexing....most work but the odd one causes problems. FireCore only recommends using the CD coil from now on due to the issues they've experienced with returns. You're good to go ! 


Ron

[66FBCharger]

So did you have the old style mechanical voltage regulator?

No, it was an electronic voltage regulator.

Hey John,

Glad to hear she's back up & running   The coil thing is a bit perplexing....most work but the odd one causes problems. FireCore only recommends using the CD coil from now on due to the issues they've experienced with returns. You're good to go !  


Ron

Yes Ron I am good to go!
Thanks.