Stroker or roller cam

[ChargerST]

Which gives me more bang for the buck? I know the answer is not straight forward nonetheless I give it a try.

Engine is a 440
10.5:1 compression
Trick Flow heads
RPM intake
headers

a street roller cam setup should cost around $1000 while a stroker kit is around $2500. hp/tq per $ what makes more sense?

Thanks

[fy469rtse]

Stroker of course , but then you need a decent cam valve train to tap in to all that potential HP
Your going to need both

[Derwud]

Is the engine out of the car already? If you are rebuilding any way and replacing parts, spend the money once. If the engine is in the car and running, Cam Swap can be done in the car, Stroker kit, not so easy in the car.

[c00nhunterjoe]

What cam is currently in the car? Simply making it a roller will not give you magical horsepower

[Kern Dog]

What cam is currently in the car? Simply making it a roller will not give you magical horsepower

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe the OP knows the words but isn't familiar with what they affect?
The added stroke gives more torque for the most part. You are able to get the car moving faster with less effort. A stroked 400 or 440 can be fitted with a relatively moderate cam that idles well but runs real strong. I have a 440 based 493 with the Mopar Performance 528 solid and 1.6 rocker arms. Nice idle and great power. The cam is a fraction of the price of a roller cam.

[ChargerST]

Engine is still in the car will be taken out as I'm doing a 4-speed conversion as well. Trick Flow heads are not on the engine yet and I want to get rid of my .509 cam. Since I'm going to change the cam anyway I want to know if I should spend the money on a roller cam setup or save some more, get a stroker and live with a solid flat tappet cam.
I know that ideally I should go stroker + roller cam but at the moment it is either or.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I would start by pulling the heads and measuring the pistons before ordering anything. If you actually have 10.5:1, then i wouldnt rebuild the bottom end. I would take the 3500-4000 you were going to spend on building a stroker bottom end and have those trick flow heads ported, buy a respectable solid flat tappet cam in the .550-.560 lift/ 240- 250 @.050 range depending on your rear gears and enjoy a nasty street car. The 4 speed will be a blast.

[Challenger340]

I can't answer regarding the Trick Flows ?

In the past I would have been asking questions about driving style, Gearing, Tire Dia, etc., etc., because I just never considered any of the other "street" Head offerings viable closer to 500" without extensive porting ? so I probably might have said "street" Roller in a 440 for extended range and FUN with the 4 gear ?

Our new SuperFlow SF750 Flow Bench arrives next week, as soon as it's up and running and we clear a bunch of HEMI stuff we gotta get done, the new Trick Flows are my first project at the higher sensitivities that our old bench could not offer. Should be interesting on the CamPro depending upon what we find.

[BSB67]

I think enough folks have had the TrickFlows on the bench to conclude that they are every bit as good as CNC ported Eddy RPMs and probably better.


If you are looking for ultimate power, stroker.  But for me the 4 speed is a game changer.  For fun and pleasure to drive, I would probably go std stroke with a roller.  It will be a beautiful thing.  I'd go with a street roller or roundy-round type roller and put the rockers you need to get to 0.60" net lift at the valve to take advantage of the heads.

However, with all that said. if you have a stock weight pistons on factory rods, that could be a problem.

[ChargerST]

Thanks for the replies! Still some time left to figure out the final recipe for my engine but I'll start a new thread once I have opened the engine and figured out the real compression (engine was rebuilt before but no specs).
Ideally I would like to use my bottom end as it is, put on the heads and just decide on a new cam. I figure that the investment on a roller cam would pay off as I could reuse the lifters should I decide to stroke it.

[BSB67]

Thanks for the replies! Still some time left to figure out the final recipe for my engine but I'll start a new thread once I have opened the engine and figured out the real compression (engine was rebuilt before but no specs).
Ideally I would like to use my bottom end as it is, put on the heads and just decide on a new cam. I figure that the investment on a roller cam would pay off as I could reuse the lifters should I decide to stroke it.

It will probably cost more that $1000.

But once you bite the bullet, you'll likely never go back.

[ChargerST]

Total swap cost yes but if you consider that I need new pushrods, lifters and a cam anyways the additional cost for a roller setup is actually below 1k (I have a roller compatible timing chain - Rollmaster).

Lifters (MRL) are around $450
cam around $350
oil pump drive $100

[Challenger340]

Make sure the Valve Springs are compatible.

[ChargerST]

I went for the lightest springs when I ordered the heads:

Valve Springs, Standard: 1.460" o.d. dual spring with damper
120 lbs. @ 1.900" installed height
394 lbs. @ 1.175" open
max. lift 0.650"

I though that the springs would be ok for a low lift (0.550" - 0.600") roller cam. or should I get new springs?

[firefighter3931]

Those springs won't be compatible with a solid roller cam.....even a street roller. The Cam manufacturer should provide you with a spring recommendation. Even a mild street roller will need 500+ lbs over the nose to keep the valvetrain stable. I would use a fully rollerized rocker arm as well ; either Harland Sharp or T&D 


Ron

[BLK 68 R/T]

I just went through this upgrade on my motor. And with regards to the valve springs, if the ones you currently have are a single spring when you upgrade to a dual spring for the roller cam you will also have to get new lower spring retainers and valve guide seals as well due to the inner spring making contact with the stock seals that were installed. Depending on what you already have this may or may not be an issue, but something to keep in mind anyways. 

Here is a short list of known items to complete a roller cam upgrade.
Cam
Lifters
Adjustable rocker arms + hold down kit
Upgraded timing chain cover-to control the roller cam end play. Stock will work but is not ideal.
Custom pushrods
Thrust button
3 bolt timing gear set + special bolts to mount it
Dual valve springs
New valve locks and spring retainers (depends on what you currently have and if they will fit the new springs)
Roller cam compatible oil pump/distributor drive gear (either coated steel or bronze)
Head machining for the new springs??

[BSB67]

I went for the lightest springs when I ordered the heads:

Valve Springs, Standard: 1.460" o.d. dual spring with damper
120 lbs. @ 1.900" installed height
394 lbs. @ 1.175" open
max. lift 0.650"

I though that the springs would be ok for a low lift (0.550" - 0.600") roller cam. or should I get new springs?

Don't skim on the lifters.

Depending on the profile and other engine specifics you could get away with a 175/450 on springs, but most guys will recommend 200/500 for a street type lobe.  There does not seem to be many spring between the typical FT spring, and the 200/500 available.

[c00nhunterjoe]

I dont see how it can be reliably done at the 1000 limit.

[ChargerST]

The $1000 figure is the premium over a flat tappet. I estimated $1500 for the roller and $500 for the flat tappet (cam, lifters, pushrods).

As I already said the build is still in the works and I have to take the heads off and do some more investigating (real compression) before I decide which way to go. Maybe I'll just go the solid FT route for the sake of simplicity.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Last time i checked, a GOOD set of full roller t&d's or harland sharps were 1200-1400 alone. I think your calculations for a RELIABLE roller setup is a touch off.

[ChargerST]

Here are the lifters I'm talking about: http://www.mrlperformance.com
Heard good things about them. What's your verdict on these lifters?

[c00nhunterjoe]

I have not personally used them so i cannot comment on them. I would use steward performance for lifters and pushrods in a high spring pressure situation. Family owned. 100% american made, meticulous attention to detail. Alot of the pros use him and win with his products. Denny is a stand up guy, worth the money for an incredible product.  

http://www.stewardperformance.com/roller_lifters.html

[BSB67]

Last time i checked, a GOOD set of full roller t&d's or harland sharps were 1200-1400 alone. I think your calculations for a RELIABLE roller setup is a touch off.

I think the Pro Magnums will work, and he could use any of the ductile iron rockers, and probably Crane Golds too.  I would keep an on the Golds

[c00nhunterjoe]

We are splitting hairs at this point. Im still saying its closer to 2000 for the conversion. Even with the comp iron rockers, you are looking at 700 for rockers, 550-600 for the suggested lifters, 60 for the bronze gear, figure low at 200 for the cam and we are already at the 1500 mark and you still need pushrods and valve springs, not to mention possible machine work on valve guides for clearance.
     I think it would be more cost effective and net better results to go solid flat tappet and port the heads and still have a few bucks left over.

[Challenger340]

Just me personally,
but for longevity in street useage, as with all things mentioned to added cost with street roller's, as Valve Spring pressures increase ? I look alot closer at Valve Guide "clearance" ?
The "looser" the guide with more V/Spring pressure, the faster the guide wears, and the faster the best flowing seat prep wipes away !

to explain....
I don't care so much if I see .0014" to .0017" guide clearance(Yes, less is better) on a Flat Tappet Cam at 120# seat and sub 300# over the nose V/Springs. It'll run and survive for a reasonable timeframe.
however,
on a Street Roller with 175# seat(or more) and 500# rate springs, I just KNOW with the aforementioned small amount of extra guide clearance is gonna go away sooner ?
so,
re-do to a MAX  .001" Intake and .0012" Exhaust.

The only reason I mention it.... is you would be amazed at some of the "as delivered OOTB" brand new Guide clearances present on some stuff ? Stealth/Sidewinder/even Eddy's at times ?
But they are "good to go".....  GOLDEN brand new stuff in the customers eyes Right ?

[BSB67]

Just me personally,
but for longevity in street useage, as with all things mentioned to added cost with street roller's, as Valve Spring pressures increase ? I look alot closer at Valve Guide "clearance" ?
The "looser" the guide with more V/Spring pressure, the faster the guide wears, and the faster the best flowing seat prep wipes away !

to explain....
I don't care so much if I see .0014" to .0017" guide clearance(Yes, less is better) on a Flat Tappet Cam at 120# seat and sub 300# over the nose V/Springs. It'll run and survive for a reasonable timeframe.
however,
on a Street Roller with 175# seat(or more) and 500# rate springs, I just KNOW with the aforementioned small amount of extra guide clearance is gonna go away sooner ?
so,
re-do to a MAX  .001" Intake and .0012" Exhaust.

The only reason I mention it.... is you would be amazed at some of the "as delivered OOTB" brand new Guide clearances present on some stuff ? Stealth/Sidewinder/even Eddy's at times ?
But they are "good to go".....  GOLDEN brand new stuff in the customers eyes Right ?

I know a bit off subject, but there does seem to be different lines of thinking on the valve to guide clearance.  My machinest from 25 yrs ago, now long ago out of business, would shoot for 0.0008" to 0.001" on the intakes and 0.001 to 0.0012" on exhaust, with his guide material choice.  I have to believe that he knew something about valve grinds as there were a few SS cars running out of his one man shop.  Seats ground out to the very edge of the valve od, and quite narrow.  Today, it seems like shops like looser clearance and more conservative on the grind.

[c00nhunterjoe]

Build a set of stock/super stock heads are a whole different ball game. The build specs and procedures are far off from a street car and many of those engines are trash after as little as 80 passes.

[BSB67]

Build a set of stock/super stock heads are a whole different ball game. The build specs and procedures are far off from a street car and many of those engines are trash after as little as 80 passes.

Right.  Still 0.0008 to .001" for clearance on my 50,000 mi street car, w/ a stock cam.

[c00nhunterjoe]

A "stock" cam is nowhere near your stock cam, and i am pretty sure you already know that. The "stocker's" profile beats the valves to death. Just listening to them idle, you can literally hear the abuse taking place. But thats the price you pay to make max power under the strict rules of the class.

[BSB67]

You have completely missed my point on several levels.. 001" is where intake clearance should be for longevity and is well proven to work.

And, I'm talking about my car and my cam. MP. 455".

[c00nhunterjoe]

I was refering to the style of valve seat grinding and the fact that he was building super stock engines. I agree with your valve guides though.