Keep the Six Pack or no?

[Troy]

This is more a question of "am I hurting myself" and not "am I losing power" so I stuck it here instead of the tech section.

I have a 70 Challenger that's been cloned (mostly, missing the Dana) into a 440 Six Pack 4-speed. I love the Six Pack but it doesn't seem to love me. When I first got it, things were great. Lots of power and no real issues other than it boiling the gas out and/or vapor locking whenever it was really hot (my first trip to Carlisle was 96 degrees and if I stopped for more than 10 minutes while getting gas I'd have to sit for 45 to let it cool). That and I have to pour gas in the center carb before it will start if it sits more than a couple weeks. Talking to the "experts" and I'm told that these "quirks" are just part of the joy of Six Pack ownership. Over time, things went down hill. It is very picky and if I get it to idle well then it pops, bangs and falls all over itself at WOT. If I get it to throw me in the seat at WOT it idles like crap. The only major change to the engine since I've had it is an FBO distributor. I ran a Rev-n-nator for a while until I read that it didn't play nice with the vacuum advance (which the FBO distributor is set up for) so I switched back to the Mopar orange boxes (which continually overheat and basically suck). I had the carbs off twice and am getting ready to do it again.

I'd like to blame the quality of gas because it seems like I have to do a major cleanup every time I pull them apart. But, maybe I just really suck at tuning a Six Pack. Either way, I've put about 7 tanks of gas through this thing in the last 3 years because I never know what sort of "mood" it will be in when I hit the key. One thing I cannot stand in a car is constantly tuning/fixing it. Little things that don't quite work right frustrate me to no end. At the end of the summer I had a nice day so I hopped in the Mach 1 (which hadn't been out since early spring) and it fired up on the 3rd try, settled into a decent idle, and ran for about 15 minutes to warm up. While it was idling, I went in to get the Challenger. An hour and 45 minutes later, it finally fired up enough for me to back out of the garage then promptly quit for good and I had to push it back in. So I took the Mach 1 out for a drive the rest of the day. A couple weeks later, I did get it going again and it mostly ran fine. Dad drove it one day and it didn't like to sit and idle when hot but I took it out a few nights later and it did well.

I have an Edelbrock Performer RPM intake manifold and a Holley 750 HP sitting on the shelf. For my sanity I'm thinking of just putting that on the car (I'd need a fuel line and a throttle bracket I think). If I ever sell the car, will this has a negative impact on value? It's a clone any way so I'm thinking a good running 4bbl is about equal to a poorly running Six Pack. And if it's less, I can just sell the Six Pack setup and recoup the loss. I really just want to be able to hop in the car and go whenever I want (like the previous 3 muscle cars I've had before this one). I've considered EFI but since I'd have to swap intakes any way I'd already be practically done with the 4bbl swap. Since the car does look reasonably stock already I'm not sure how much EFI would detract from it. Again, if it runs awesome I can't see that it would greatly affect the value.

Or I could have the carbs rebuilt by a reputable shop ($600-1,000) and installed by a local Mopar guy who supposedly knows his stuff. And then hope I get 2 good years out of it again...

Troy

[moparstuart]

ford makes alot thicker gasket that help keep the heat off the carbs and stops the boiling of the fuel  ,   also i tend to blow the power valve in the center carb alot and it all goes to shit after that . 

[Troy]

And I've been looking at this thread (in reverse):
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php/topic,121351.msg1507822.html#new

But there's no mention of value really.

Troy

[Troy]

ford makes alot thicker gasket that help keep the heat off the carbs and stops the boiling of the fuel  ,   also i tend to blow the power valve in the center carb alot and it all goes to shit after that . 

My air cleaner already hits the hood pad so I don't know how much room I have. I've been using the "good" FelPro base gaskets. Oh, and last year I put on the 1215 valley pan which blocked off the heat port and lowered the temps by about 40 degrees (and maybe now it's too cool?).

I've done all the "tests" for a blown power valve and it seems to be fine. If I yank it apart again I'll replace it just to be sure. These are the earlier after market carbs (not stock but at least 18 years old).

Troy

[moparstuart]

ford makes alot thicker gasket that help keep the heat off the carbs and stops the boiling of the fuel  ,   also i tend to blow the power valve in the center carb alot and it all goes to shit after that . 

My air cleaner already hits the hood pad so I don't know how much room I have. I've been using the "good" FelPro base gaskets. Oh, and last year I put on the 1215 valley pan which blocked off the heat port and lowered the temps by about 40 degrees (and maybe now it's too cool?).

I've done all the "tests" for a blown power valve and it seems to be fine. If I yank it apart again I'll replace it just to be sure. These are the earlier after market carbs (not stock but at least 18 years old).

Troy

it will get real fuelly and dump lots of raw gas if the valve is blown

[ws23rt]

Their are several questions here. Most of them are beyond my experience. (I've never dealt with a six pac car.)

The one question-"If I ever sell the car, will this have a negative impact on value?" seems easier to answer than making a six pac work as intended.

You could do the change to a single four, that you mentioned and see how that works for your driving needs. If it solves your issues you have not abandoned the six pac as a selling point. --The six pac parts can go with the car to a new owner and the car may be even easier to sell with that option. Since the car is a clone anyway I don't see much if any negative to a buyer.

[b5blue]

What cam? My 6BBL ran very well for 20 years. The only issues I had came from mistakes built into it by my re-builder at one point. He left the backing plates off the metering blocks on the outboards. When correct it was very reliable but this new fuel means they don't like sitting around. 

[Troy]

Without getting into a discussion of how to make it run right... assume it ran great when I got it (it did) so there probably isn't any reason to suspect that it's built incorrectly. I just can't keep it running that way without constantly playing with it.

I want a car that I can drive - not work on. I have plenty of projects that need work...

Troy

[ws23rt]

I drove and worked on these cars since the sixties. Working on them was the norm as I recall.
I also remember how little fun it was to fix something because the need usually came when It was least comfy to fix it.

I T-boned a car that blew through a red light with my nearly perfect 65 barracuda (that was a daily driver).--1989--I rented a new car till I could get another of my cars on the road.  That was the time my passion for these cars changed into just a hobby. Now working on the old ones is no longer a chore, It's part of the fun.

Taking my 69 coronet for a spin is great fun but taking it far or for very long would not be.

I'm fortunate enough to have scored a hellcat recently and when a road trip comes up I don't worry about breaking down. If I did their is little I could do about it anyway.

[DixieRestoParts]

Without getting into a discussion of how to make it run right... assume it ran great when I got it (it did) so there probably isn't any reason to suspect that it's built incorrectly. I just can't keep it running that way without constantly playing with it.

I want a car that I can drive - not work on. I have plenty of projects that need work...

Troy

I think you answered your question already. Put the 4BBL on it and bang some gears. Keep the Six Pack for when you sell it, and give to the next guy if it matters to him. Or maybe a fews years down the road when the 4BBL needs rebuilding, put your Six Pack back on. Also, I don't think it impacts the resale value of the car more than the cost of the parts.

For what it's worth, I had a Six Pack on my Charger back in the mid-90's and had similar issues. I finally put a AVS back on it and have been banging gears and getting it sideways since then. Well, at least until I tore it apart to paint it. Nothing against them, some guys have great luck running them, but I didn't.

[cdr]

today's fuel is HELL on carbs.

[Brass]

today's fuel is HELL on carbs.

Which is why I try to drive mine at least biweekly, as much as I can, as long as it's dry.  Even during the winter.  Since it has a choke, it usually fires right off and I don't wait around letting it warm up either.  These cars seem to run better the more they're driven, and I start to get anxious if I think mine has been sitting too long with poor gas in the bowls.

[Troy]

today's fuel is HELL on carbs.

Yeah, but none of my other carbureted cars cause me this many headaches.

I had read that the fuel could damage/erode the rubber fuel lines so maybe a poke under the car would be good? A few years ago the main line from the tank on the Mach 1 basically crumbled and dumped a few gallons on the garage floor before I caught it. I assumed at the time it was just old.

The next Charger will definitely have EFI - but the one after that is a little too rare to stray far from stock. Maybe. I may change my mind by the time that thing gets built!

Troy

[Dino]

Stick the 4 bbl on there or go EFI.  That way you'll be smiling every time you look at the car instead of cringing.  Enjoy that thing!   

[b5blue]

  If all was well at the start I'd target gaskets and the tiny cork O rings for the idle mix needles. Check the float needles tips to see if deformed. Chicago Corvette has everything in ethanol resistant you could ever need, and not costly.
  You said the set is 18 years old? I used a firecore RTR dizzy/coil and it was a huge help getting ignition maximized. I just swapped to a CH4B and Pro Form 750 as I'm adding A/C next year. I miss the kick from the six, nothing compares.    (I'm turning the volume down to make the car more drive-able so my 3 kids can use the car anyway.)
   

[myk]

I don't get it.  People drove six paks and Hemi's to work, school, bowling, the grocery store, church, the whore house, etc, every day and all day back in the 60's, 70's and I'd wager even into the 80's.  Why are these cars so temperamental now?  And like Troy said, it's not just the gas; his other cars don't cause so much strife...

[Mytur Binsdirti]

Multiple carbs = multiple problems.

[303 Mopar]

I have a 6 bbl on my '70 Cuda and it runs very well, however I do need to tweak it at least once a month.  It came from sea level, so getting it to run here at altitude did take A LOT of adjustments.  Luckily, my buddy is a Mopar guy with his own shop and has rebuilt and adjusted hundreds of 6 bbl set ups and he has helped me. 

Having said that, a 4 bbl has the potential of making more power with the right set up.  6 pack/bbl set ups are a "cool" thing and do increase the value to the right person. If you are more comfortable with adjusting a 4 bbl then do it, especially since you have the parts sitting on the shelf.  Of course, an EFI is a install and forget it solution but will run you several thousands to switch.  If you can afford it, and maybe sell your 6 pack and 4 bbl setups to help, then that would be the way to go if you don't want to mess with it anymore.

[cdr]

divide the idle fuel passage size by 3,, that makes them much more vulnerable to get plugged up.

[moparstuart]

http://sixpacksixbbl.homestead.com/mrsixpackHOF.html

[b5blue]

I don't get it.  People drove six paks and Hemi's to work, school, bowling, the grocery store, church, the whore house, etc, every day and all day back in the 60's, 70's and I'd wager even into the 80's.  Why are these cars so temperamental now?  And like Troy said, it's not just the gas; his other cars don't cause so much strife...

That's me. There are no inherent issues for a 6BBL that a 4BBL is not the same for. 

[cdr]

the ifr size is very small in the six pack set up, easily plugged up

[Troy]

I have a local guy (or two actually) who seem to be fairly competent with Six Packs so I plan to have at least one of them take a look before I pull them off again. I also live reasonably close to three different vendors that restore them - but none want to mess with the car! So if I'm going to dump $1,000 into something I'd rather have it be something that is less of a pain in the ass. The idea of using parts I have on the shelf was mainly just to validate my suspicions without spending a bunch of time, effort, and cash.

If I have a general problem with the fuel system it will also come back with the 4bbl. That I understand. But if it's a collapsed or deteriorated line or an engine issue why would it be intermittent? Literally, it either idles great or goes like gangbusters at WOT - but not both. This seems to be a common complaint so I'm not alone. For a while I chased fuel delivery issues when the real culprit was electrical but now that the ignition is awesome there's no other explanation. Would a rebuild fix things? Maybe? But how much time does it buy me? The last time it ran good consistently it only did so for two summers.

  If all was well at the start I'd target gaskets and the tiny cork O rings for the idle mix needles. Check the float needles tips to see if deformed. Chicago Corvette has everything in ethanol resistant you could ever need, and not costly.
  You said the set is 18 years old? I used a firecore RTR dizzy/coil and it was a huge help getting ignition maximized. I just swapped to a CH4B and Pro Form 750 as I'm adding A/C next year. I miss the kick from the six, nothing compares.    (I'm turning the volume down to make the car more drive-able so my 3 kids can use the car anyway.)
   

Thanks, I checked with Chicago Corvette and may buy some parts to go through them if I have time after the holidays. I have a Firecore ignition but I removed it because it certainly didn't have the stock(ish) look of the rest of the engine bay. If I put on the 4bbl all bets are off though.

Charlie, if I take them apart again I'll definitely take a look there.

Troy

[firefighter3931]

Six pack carbs are known to be tempermental   

That being said....they run great when dialed in. 

Troy, have you tried spraying some carb cleaner in the idle and high speed air bleeds ? These often get plugged up with the junk gas we have these days. 

A weak ignition system will also skew performance. You should have a nice blue/white spark and the plugs should stay clean. If the spark is a dull orange/yellow you have resistance in the ignition system and will foul plugs constantly. 

It ran great before with the 6-pack so there's no reason to think it can't again with some TLC




Ron

[Troy]

It's 60+ degrees today so I'll run over to the garage tonight after work and give it a good look. Maybe take it around the block...

Troy